Joyce, you are so cogent it brings tears of joy to my eyes.
Saying is a busy summer isn't the half of it. Between politics EVERYWHERE and life in general plus Canadian fires/ thick smoke and the Danish <nope, Dutch!> government collapsing, Israel.. massive changes in online communities.... well, if you don't like change and mystery, get a van and a sleeping bag and skip society altogether for a few months!
Please everyone take care of your health, sleep, eat right, be kind to as many people as you can...we all need some!
Thrilled to find your substack, Joyce, thanks a million.
All I can say is the yearly cost for Civil Discourse is a real bargain and some of the best money I have spent. Talk about a “bang for your buck”: I so very appreciate your laymen explanations. How are the chickens?
I agree w/T. Clarke. I have several subscriptions on Substack, but Joyce is the only one I pay for...the least expensive one, tho. I’m on a fixed income. 😬
That said, reading each of Joyce’s posts reminds me that it’s money well spent. And, I feel so smart when I share her explanations w/friends & fam. 🎓🤓😬
Thank you, Joyce! You are very much appreciated. 😊
Yes, opaque is a good word for it. I follow Joyce because I really want to understand, but I often find myself angry and depressed for the entire evening out of frustration with our system. I believe it was Kahlil Gibran who said in The Prophet, "Pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding."
Thank you for the deep dive on both issues. My first thought reading about Nauta’s attorney is that she’s being set up to be ramroded by Trump’s lawyers.
Ari Melber just did an extended podcast with Floyd Abrams on the First Amendment. For the layperson, it was invaluable information.
I share your concern Rosalie. The local Florida attorney's fees are being paid by tfg''s "Save America PAC". PACER is shamefully inadequate for many reasons. The Judge's ECR access Order should be a professional embarrassment unless Nauta is going for an ineffective counsel defense. I have seen no evidence of his Florida's attorney's competence with national defense informantion or the required evidentiary procedures. This is a Mistrial waiting to happen.
Cassidy Hutchinson once had the same arrangement but, she dumped her hack attorney for competent counsel to complement her administrative & witness skills. I do not think Trump's Diet Coke waiter can handle it except say 'Yes Sir' & salute.
1. 2nd year Sisters-in-Law student is a good thing. Incompetent counsel is NOT a defense but, is sometimes used on appeal when things go really bad at the Trial level.
2. Yes, PACER produces accurate procedural data on Court action in chronological Order. Recorded Court action is very much a reality anchor. We just need PACER 2.0.
3. As you know, no cameras in Federal Court but, some judges will allow a photograph before taking the Bench. Such a "Master Shot" helps make sense of the audio feed.
I agree that delay is harnful to everyone; purposeful delay is subject to a range of Court sanctions including issue penalties. Time to call the first Witness.
Bryan, in my experience inadequate assistance of counsel is a boilerplate grounds for an appeal, especially when the defendant has waived their right to appeal as part of a plea deal. Things don't have to "go really bad."
It is extremely hard to claim inadequate legal representation once the client agrees to let someone else choose and pay for their attorney. Why this young woman, who practices law in family court, was deemed suitable representation for Nauta tells me there's someone else behind her who is going to use her as a puppet of sorts. She's going to be way over her head, it will disrupt proceedings and Nauta will ask the court to dismiss her (it's not easy to fire your lawyer, often you have to explain to the court and get their approval). There might be a request made by the other attorneys for severance, meaning that they'll ask the court to try both defendants separately.
Got it Matycat but, I am working out the many factors of Mimi's thought, a Motion for Severance by Nauta's counsel who must discharge her fiduciary duties of competence &`loyalty to her client while facing the most capable & tough Jack Smith & Team. I have exactly one contact in Florida to consult.
Monday 7/10/23 Up Motion for Severance through Mimi, thank you.
MONDAY UPDATE 7 PM Pacific:
Mimi:
You sre correct; Judges/Cannon-Reinhardt did GRANT a motion to SEVER yesterday to 2 of 5 Defendants in the US vs. Carver et al case. The 2 severed Defendants TRIAL was re-set in 6 1/2 Weeks on 9/25/23. So severance can be obtained but, note the Prosecutor did NOT object.
Background:
I took Professor Vance's advice & was able to access U.S. vs. Carver, 9:22-cr-80022 on Court Listener. Note, a Motion to Withdraw (very difficult) was also posted on PACER on 7/9/23 in the Carver case.. I do not have the details
We still need a reality check on what is or is not possible in this Florida District Court system & how much purposeful delay will be tolerated by the Court.
More than once I've thought that Ari and Joyce, doing the literal exercise of debating opposing opinions on issues, would be utterly fascinating and educational. I love to learn, but with personalities that are vibrant and informed and not lacking humor, even those who resist learning become more informed. DEBATES ARE GOOD!!! Also, how marvelous would it be to have an example of decorum.
This is A little Off-subject but you DID mention Ari Melber! He had a recent podcast in which he interviewed the 3 Asst. US attnys in Maryland who brought the indictment against Spiro Agnew back in 1973. It was a wonderful segment as well as entertaining and informative re the decision to offer him the deal they did (no prison, one count of tax evasion). (I thought I could easily find the Date it aired, but no luck so far)
Why don't the AG's of MO and LA just come right out and say what they mean, in their opinion, the Government has no right to prevent them from lying, or spreading those lies on social media. After all, how else can the theorists, and authoritarians reach their gullible cultists? It's all so unfair, sigh.
Is it any wonder that those of us with an ounce of intelligence have lost faith in the Court system? Let's see, last week SCOTUS deemed it okay to bring a case where the only evidence was a known lie all the way to the Supreme Court - which upheld it. Now that's justice? They totally ignore the 14th Amendment, after all it was written by ignorant Republicans... oops RINO's ...to protect people who had been wrongfully enslaved and accidentally protected all citizens. Thank you Joyce Vance, for bringing clarity to us. I, and the majority of us, have not lost our faith in the law, just the courts.
The point you raise, Fay, is so well taken... but (and here is my ‘sigh’) it is we who must come right out and repeatedly state how the RAGA lawsuits are how the authoritarians are wearing down the sharper edges of the rule of law. We have to stop the bleeding of faith in the courts by holding them to account in public opinion since we cannot at the polls (at least in Federal system).
I agree, Leslie, I just haven't figured out a way to accomplish this. It will take sharper minds than mine. Of course some con-artists will see this as a way to scam more money, so we'll have to stay vigilant. I hope some people on Substack will have some good suggestions.
First off, Nauta's attorney: 1. If she is deemed unqualified for an adequate defense due to her inexperience or no experience with the case, does that become grounds for a retrial? 2. Is her hiring simply another delay tactic as she mysteriously discovers a month or two from now that she is over her head? 3. Why would Nauta even agree to her, since it is his butt on the line here? I understand he is not coming out of his pockets to pay for his attorney, but is he just stupid & wants to continue to throw himself on the hand grenade that will destroy himself & NOT protect trump in the long run anyway? It's a quandary. Golfing tomorrow morning; first time in over 4 yrs. Scary, I know. Keep your heads down.....carry on
#3... I am completely flummoxed. (such a fun word)
I don’t get, other than finances, why he wants to stay tethered to Trump. Questions I have are:
1) what was he promised?
2) has he read nothing about Trump’s reputation for lying & taking advantage of EVERYONE around him?
3) lastly, does Nauta have any family who he’s concerned about, who can help guide him through this mess?
I can’t believe there are zero attys out there who might represent him pro bono. It’s almost painful to watch him offer up himself for a person who cares nothing about him. When I see Nauta, I want to grab him & shake some sense into him. Ugh
Hey, trump may have something he has hanging over his head or trump has promised to pardon him. You're right about the trump lies, but the whole thing has a bad smell.
Oh dear Joyce, what would we do without you. Thank you so much for all you contribute. I totally agree w/Christine (above). $ well spent for me. We appreciate you so very much. Please take care.🇺🇸
Delay, delay, delay, even for the best reasons, should be a reason to prevent TFG for running for President in the coming election. Under indictment, plus other court cases coming. And for Nauta, represented by an attorney inexperienced in a Federal criminal case. Is this the best case scenario in order to drag out Justice?
Thank you, Joyce. You often remind us that the DOJ speaks through its filings, so it’s especially helpful when you share the filings with us. Thanks to you, I am better informed than ever before. I consider that (and the added benefit of seeing your chickens) well worth the price of admission – in other words, my subscription to Civil Discourse. You are awesome!
Another example of how coherently you explain the intricacies of the law! Having a brother in law who was a partner in a large law firm in Philly, has helped with some of the verbiage, but, you pull it all together! What will the week ahead bring? 🤔
"Smith seems committed to leaving no stone unturned as he investigates."
Does that include Roger Stone?
Let’s hope so!🤞🏼
Good one!
Turn him over... he's done!
He was in the thick of it, wasn't he? Good question, Michael.
Susan
Touché!
Joyce, you are so cogent it brings tears of joy to my eyes.
Saying is a busy summer isn't the half of it. Between politics EVERYWHERE and life in general plus Canadian fires/ thick smoke and the Danish <nope, Dutch!> government collapsing, Israel.. massive changes in online communities.... well, if you don't like change and mystery, get a van and a sleeping bag and skip society altogether for a few months!
Please everyone take care of your health, sleep, eat right, be kind to as many people as you can...we all need some!
Thrilled to find your substack, Joyce, thanks a million.
Mimi
Dutch government, wasn’t it, not Danish?
Yes, thank you, edited to correct
All I can say is the yearly cost for Civil Discourse is a real bargain and some of the best money I have spent. Talk about a “bang for your buck”: I so very appreciate your laymen explanations. How are the chickens?
Absolutely! For anybody who seriously wants to understand the issues we are facing, Civil Discourse is worth it. Thank you!
I agree w/T. Clarke. I have several subscriptions on Substack, but Joyce is the only one I pay for...the least expensive one, tho. I’m on a fixed income. 😬
That said, reading each of Joyce’s posts reminds me that it’s money well spent. And, I feel so smart when I share her explanations w/friends & fam. 🎓🤓😬
Thank you, Joyce! You are very much appreciated. 😊
Let’s hope “imminent” means imminent this time.
I had no idea how opaque the legal system really is. Thank you for an excellent explanation, Joyce.
It is a fascinating discovery per Joyce’s explanation.
Yes, opaque is a good word for it. I follow Joyce because I really want to understand, but I often find myself angry and depressed for the entire evening out of frustration with our system. I believe it was Kahlil Gibran who said in The Prophet, "Pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding."
Thank you for the deep dive on both issues. My first thought reading about Nauta’s attorney is that she’s being set up to be ramroded by Trump’s lawyers.
Ari Melber just did an extended podcast with Floyd Abrams on the First Amendment. For the layperson, it was invaluable information.
I share your concern Rosalie. The local Florida attorney's fees are being paid by tfg''s "Save America PAC". PACER is shamefully inadequate for many reasons. The Judge's ECR access Order should be a professional embarrassment unless Nauta is going for an ineffective counsel defense. I have seen no evidence of his Florida's attorney's competence with national defense informantion or the required evidentiary procedures. This is a Mistrial waiting to happen.
Cassidy Hutchinson once had the same arrangement but, she dumped her hack attorney for competent counsel to complement her administrative & witness skills. I do not think Trump's Diet Coke waiter can handle it except say 'Yes Sir' & salute.
3 comments for fave newsletter-
1) I'm just a 2nd ye
ar Sisters-in-Law student, but wondered if incompetent counsel was a defense.
2) No good alternative to PACER? Could be a place where reality-deniers can be directed to find truth, like an anchor.
3) Trial should be televised (somehow)
Americans have been waiting for something factual about Trump for YEARS. It's exhausting. Tell us SOMETHING.
The people deserve to see oaths being taken.
🙏
1. 2nd year Sisters-in-Law student is a good thing. Incompetent counsel is NOT a defense but, is sometimes used on appeal when things go really bad at the Trial level.
2. Yes, PACER produces accurate procedural data on Court action in chronological Order. Recorded Court action is very much a reality anchor. We just need PACER 2.0.
3. As you know, no cameras in Federal Court but, some judges will allow a photograph before taking the Bench. Such a "Master Shot" helps make sense of the audio feed.
I agree that delay is harnful to everyone; purposeful delay is subject to a range of Court sanctions including issue penalties. Time to call the first Witness.
🏛 🙏
Bryan, in my experience inadequate assistance of counsel is a boilerplate grounds for an appeal, especially when the defendant has waived their right to appeal as part of a plea deal. Things don't have to "go really bad."
You can bet that if Nauta is forced to appeal, based on inadequate assistance of counsel, Trump's Save America PAC won't be paying for it.
Wish I’d read this thread before posting. Her profile is jaw dropping for this kind of case.
Concur. Nauta's other Attorney, STAN WODWARD, has not yet filed his
Required F86 Form for the necessary security clearance. Delay.
It is extremely hard to claim inadequate legal representation once the client agrees to let someone else choose and pay for their attorney. Why this young woman, who practices law in family court, was deemed suitable representation for Nauta tells me there's someone else behind her who is going to use her as a puppet of sorts. She's going to be way over her head, it will disrupt proceedings and Nauta will ask the court to dismiss her (it's not easy to fire your lawyer, often you have to explain to the court and get their approval). There might be a request made by the other attorneys for severance, meaning that they'll ask the court to try both defendants separately.
Got it Matycat but, I am working out the many factors of Mimi's thought, a Motion for Severance by Nauta's counsel who must discharge her fiduciary duties of competence &`loyalty to her client while facing the most capable & tough Jack Smith & Team. I have exactly one contact in Florida to consult.
I feel that severance is the path to more fair outcomes for both.....meaning, accurately sentenced.
Monday 7/10/23 Up Motion for Severance through Mimi, thank you.
MONDAY UPDATE 7 PM Pacific:
Mimi:
You sre correct; Judges/Cannon-Reinhardt did GRANT a motion to SEVER yesterday to 2 of 5 Defendants in the US vs. Carver et al case. The 2 severed Defendants TRIAL was re-set in 6 1/2 Weeks on 9/25/23. So severance can be obtained but, note the Prosecutor did NOT object.
Background:
I took Professor Vance's advice & was able to access U.S. vs. Carver, 9:22-cr-80022 on Court Listener. Note, a Motion to Withdraw (very difficult) was also posted on PACER on 7/9/23 in the Carver case.. I do not have the details
We still need a reality check on what is or is not possible in this Florida District Court system & how much purposeful delay will be tolerated by the Court.
Respectfully,
bsm
Yes, I agree. Ari is a gem. Soooo helpful!
More than once I've thought that Ari and Joyce, doing the literal exercise of debating opposing opinions on issues, would be utterly fascinating and educational. I love to learn, but with personalities that are vibrant and informed and not lacking humor, even those who resist learning become more informed. DEBATES ARE GOOD!!! Also, how marvelous would it be to have an example of decorum.
I’m sure Ari could find a hip hop line about the chickens too
gawdI hope so!!!!!
This is A little Off-subject but you DID mention Ari Melber! He had a recent podcast in which he interviewed the 3 Asst. US attnys in Maryland who brought the indictment against Spiro Agnew back in 1973. It was a wonderful segment as well as entertaining and informative re the decision to offer him the deal they did (no prison, one count of tax evasion). (I thought I could easily find the Date it aired, but no luck so far)
Why don't the AG's of MO and LA just come right out and say what they mean, in their opinion, the Government has no right to prevent them from lying, or spreading those lies on social media. After all, how else can the theorists, and authoritarians reach their gullible cultists? It's all so unfair, sigh.
Is it any wonder that those of us with an ounce of intelligence have lost faith in the Court system? Let's see, last week SCOTUS deemed it okay to bring a case where the only evidence was a known lie all the way to the Supreme Court - which upheld it. Now that's justice? They totally ignore the 14th Amendment, after all it was written by ignorant Republicans... oops RINO's ...to protect people who had been wrongfully enslaved and accidentally protected all citizens. Thank you Joyce Vance, for bringing clarity to us. I, and the majority of us, have not lost our faith in the law, just the courts.
The point you raise, Fay, is so well taken... but (and here is my ‘sigh’) it is we who must come right out and repeatedly state how the RAGA lawsuits are how the authoritarians are wearing down the sharper edges of the rule of law. We have to stop the bleeding of faith in the courts by holding them to account in public opinion since we cannot at the polls (at least in Federal system).
Wha????? Read Joe Scarborough’s article in the Atlantic.
I agree, Leslie, I just haven't figured out a way to accomplish this. It will take sharper minds than mine. Of course some con-artists will see this as a way to scam more money, so we'll have to stay vigilant. I hope some people on Substack will have some good suggestions.
“Expect most of the substantive parts of proceedings regarding classified material to be frustratingly opaque to the public…”
I am so glad to have you to explain a lot of what’s going on!
First off, Nauta's attorney: 1. If she is deemed unqualified for an adequate defense due to her inexperience or no experience with the case, does that become grounds for a retrial? 2. Is her hiring simply another delay tactic as she mysteriously discovers a month or two from now that she is over her head? 3. Why would Nauta even agree to her, since it is his butt on the line here? I understand he is not coming out of his pockets to pay for his attorney, but is he just stupid & wants to continue to throw himself on the hand grenade that will destroy himself & NOT protect trump in the long run anyway? It's a quandary. Golfing tomorrow morning; first time in over 4 yrs. Scary, I know. Keep your heads down.....carry on
Hey, Bill! Good to see you here!
#3... I am completely flummoxed. (such a fun word)
I don’t get, other than finances, why he wants to stay tethered to Trump. Questions I have are:
1) what was he promised?
2) has he read nothing about Trump’s reputation for lying & taking advantage of EVERYONE around him?
3) lastly, does Nauta have any family who he’s concerned about, who can help guide him through this mess?
I can’t believe there are zero attys out there who might represent him pro bono. It’s almost painful to watch him offer up himself for a person who cares nothing about him. When I see Nauta, I want to grab him & shake some sense into him. Ugh
Hey, trump may have something he has hanging over his head or trump has promised to pardon him. You're right about the trump lies, but the whole thing has a bad smell.
I totally agree.
He is counting on 45 pardoning him if he takes office (fat chance).
Oh dear Joyce, what would we do without you. Thank you so much for all you contribute. I totally agree w/Christine (above). $ well spent for me. We appreciate you so very much. Please take care.🇺🇸
So tired of judges like Doughty making things up as they go along. And that does include SCOTUS
Delay, delay, delay, even for the best reasons, should be a reason to prevent TFG for running for President in the coming election. Under indictment, plus other court cases coming. And for Nauta, represented by an attorney inexperienced in a Federal criminal case. Is this the best case scenario in order to drag out Justice?
For 45 it seems.
Thank you, Joyce. You often remind us that the DOJ speaks through its filings, so it’s especially helpful when you share the filings with us. Thanks to you, I am better informed than ever before. I consider that (and the added benefit of seeing your chickens) well worth the price of admission – in other words, my subscription to Civil Discourse. You are awesome!
Another example of how coherently you explain the intricacies of the law! Having a brother in law who was a partner in a large law firm in Philly, has helped with some of the verbiage, but, you pull it all together! What will the week ahead bring? 🤔
So could Nauta’s sentence be appealed because he didn’t have adequate representation due to his attorney’s inexperience in Federal Court?
Thanks Joyce. Here we go again!
Prayers continuing for our country.