Except there's nothing wrong with them! It's the rest of us who are crazy! When I was still practicing (I was a psychiatrist), we had a rule of thumb: it's the HEALTHIEST member of a family who seeks help, not the sick ones. The healthy one sees the sickness in the family. The sick ones see nothing wrong. Sound familiar? (politically)
You're so right Kid! You need a modicum of intelligence and be able to see beyond the Fox bubble to know what's going on. I'll take no relish in saying "told you so"!
What is so difficult to understand about the intent of Bill’s comment? Word smithing doesn’t change the bottom line of the comment. Women who can vote for the felon are traitors to all women…no exceptions.
What people rarely consider is that most men. Can physically overpower women and force a pregnancy as a punishment. Outlawing abortion leaves us vulnerable to that. No one with any humanity should be okay with that.
Karen, you’ve got me thinking about that. Of course you’re correct with some exceptions. As a professional dancer in my 20s I built up a lean muscled body that was able to toss a much heavier man I was then dating
up and throw him across the smallish room. He hit the wall with a loud thud.
That was one. Another guy thought he could pin me down in our family living room. I wriggled away and grabbed a huge candle stick telling him: “Get out now!” My Dad then leaned over the bannister and said, ‘Is everything all right?’ My reply, “yes, he’s leaving now!” My face was black & blue the next morning. Now, we all need to arm ourselves with martial arts. Pretty ghastly right, but wise. Very wise as these monsters make rules to turn us into meek cotton balls to rape at will.
This, Cathy, is what I've been advocating! If women simply refused to 'engage' with a man who would vote for tfg, or support these neanderthal laws, he would cave faster than Meatloaf in "Paradise By The Dashboard Lights"!! Plus, we already have laws regarding abuse and rape; those CAN'T be denied!
Lysistrata, written by Aristophanes and first performed in 411 BCE, is a classical Greek comedy about women who withhold sex from men during the Peloponnesian War to force them to enter peace negotiations. Notably, the play is an early example of gender roles and sexual relations in a society dominated by men.
In LYSISTRATA, the plan worked, as sex was the only thing the men ever really wanted...! I think what we have here in the 21st century is that the only thing (some) men ever really wanted/want is control over women.
Yeah - thats been obvious for centuries! Also, something that is never mentioned by these upright? politicians is - "neutering" the other gender would take care of most of the problem. I'd like to see someone mention that in a public setting.
I’ma former teacher who just wrote a book that explains why our country fell apart. Our schools are corrupt and everyone goes along to get along including the unions. That’s why democracy has failed. It’s called A Graver Danger: White Chalk Crime, The Stunning First-Ever Explanation for School Shootings & How We End Them. I priced the ebook as low as they let me -$2.99- through the election so people fill read it and help Kamala learn what she needs to do. So glad you want to fight. My book is my fight!
You don't mention the graft of corporations and the fact that most of the top 0.1% pay no taxes. I say that + "Citizens United" + the destruction of "The Fairness Doctrine" have a lot more to do with our nation's collapse!
Congrats on the book. I’m sorry you had such a negative experience with schools and unions. My family includes a long list of dedicated school teachers and my own experience with schools doesn’t jibe with yours. Before pointing at schools, please take a hard look at other factors at play in last 20 years. For starters, how about looking at the role of Rupert Murdoch and right wing media? Or, the role of dark money and billionaires like Leonard Leo in their take-over of the Supreme Court? And Trump’s co-conspirators in attempted takeover on Jan 6?
I agree about Murdoch absolutely! But you must read my book to understand what has been going on in way too many of our schools. I started an organization in 2002 and over 2000 confirmed this. I Include proof that my district submitted an altered document in the court’s record. If you’re dedicated to teaching you must learn about the ugly side to protect it. Plus schools are the antidote to Murdoch. The fact so msny are corrupt is why he was so effective. We’ve all but lost our antidote. If you’re dedicated to teaching you must be dedicated to learning about this too. Harvey Weinstein prevailed for decades because his victims weren’t heard. Please help your fellow teachers by opening your mind to the dark side you help grow by not going so.
I agree, I see women all the time being judged for how they vote and this happens on both sides of the political aisle. Though I am not a Republican woman, I am getting tired of only women being judged but not men. It's her decision ultimately and she should not be shamed for the way she votes.
Bill, its not only up to women! Anyone who cares about the female members of their family or community should be aware of the danger they will be exposed to if they dont do the right thing in the PRIVACY of the voting booth. Its not all about abortion, either. Its about women's right to MEDICAL CARE - mammograms, contraceptives, treatment for endometriosis(something that is never mentioned) pap smears - on and on. Women's health has pretty much always been second to men's! From what Ive read, there is no prevention to a man getting a prescription(?) for viagra! Curious, isnt it?
At the least, any woman who supports Trump or like "minded" (not sure he still has one) politicians is declaring that she deserves to be a second-class citizen.
But it's not just about abortion--it's about all civil rights. If a woman does not have a right to dominion over her own body, what rights are safe? Free speech? Nope. Due process? That's already been denied. Maybe the 2nd Amendment survives--just what we need--but no other rights are protected.
So true. Are vasectomies on the table? Crazy but not. Women have been continued to be 2nd class citizens. We don’t have the ERA in the constitution. Why is that???
Terri, yes, that is a good question since the ERA has been ratified by sufficient states and is now just waiting for certification and placement in our Constitution where it should be already. There is no time-limit in the Constitution, just a made up piece of nonsense that white men put in place to thwart the passage of the ERA. It would be great if Biden walked the ERA to the US Archivist and ordered that it be placed in our Constitution and did it officially since that will be legal according to the Supreme Court. We need that and Biden and Harris could do that for all of us, maybe the day after the election results are announced.
Ever pay attention to all the tv ads promoting products for enhancing male virility? Mail order Viagra or Cialis, Blue Chew, ro.sparks, Hims, etc. it goes on and on. No restrictions for male products but lots of desire to restrict products for women. There is something wrong with this picture!!!
Great Comment. I'll look forward to Matt Gaetz and Tommy Tuberville sponsoring funding for the NIH to research more effective male contraception than condoms. Something permanent until it isn't.
There also isn't one that regulates a man's behaviour in these cases which is no different than legal love em and leave em. If the female is required to carry to term, we need a law that requires the participating male to pay every expense needed by his offspring and mother until offspring reaches complete adulthood or be jailed. No matter what state he tries to escape to, he will be jailed until he starts payments or will remain behind bars until offspring reaches adulthood. No exceptions. Codify the law.
I’ve seen the replies to my comment, there is a sadness in all of them. We could have been on a better footing, had things been handled differently over the past four years. Harris must become President, there is simply no other choice.
Thanks for the link Daniel, I have been doing something, thank you. Everyone must participate as best they can, drawing on their own personal strengths. Not all levels of engagement are suited for all people.
I’ma former teacher who just wrote a book that explains why our country fell apart. Our schools are corrupt and everyone goes along to get along including the unions. That’s why democracy has failed. It’s called A Graver Danger: White Chalk Crime, The Stunning First-Ever Explanation for School Shootings & How We End Them. I priced the ebook as low as they let me -$2.99- through the election so people fill read it and help Kamala learn what she needs to do. So glad you want to fight. My book is my fight
That's my opinion too. I was born in the UK but moved to the US 26 years ago. I am not sure how Trump winning the election with ongoing wars in Ukraine and the middle east will affect the world. However, I'm pretty sure it won't be good.
You're right, but I don't think it will happen overnight. Then again, if the orange sadist-traitor pulls us out of NATO (again), that might give pukin the red light to invade Poland, then the Baltic states, and eventually create a conflagration in Europe.
My husband and I lucky enough to have EU residency and two residences (Portugal and Italy) but I will continue to fight as Mimi said below. Giving up is not an option.
I was born in 1953, and I remember the bad old days all too well. I remember the hoops my mother had to jump through when she unexpectedly became pregnant at 40, with two teenaged daughters. At least she didn't have to resort to a back-alley abortionist.
I was 14, oldest of 4 kids, one of whom was mentally handicapped. My mom also became unexpectedly pregnant. It wasn’t until I was older that I learned that her ‘trip to New York’ was for an abortion. Her body, her right. My dad supported her and if she had confided in me, I would have done the same. If there are any Republicans or undecided voters here, please consider the very real ramifications of outlawing any women’s right to choose.
I was born in 1949. I remember several girls in my high school that had to drop out and go away to have their babies. It was considered shameful. I'm glad I got to spend the majority of my life while Roe was the law of the land. I hope it will return for today's young women.
Ruth, I hope whatever we put into place will be even more protective of women's rights than Roe. Roe opened the door to all kinds of requirements like waiting periods and ultrasounds, etc. that were costly and did harm to women of little means, totally unfair, but for men, they saw it as a way to keep women and families poor. Their racism and misogyny were showing, but somehow it was rarely presented as such. Then, there was the stupid concept of "personhood from conception." That is so completely nuts that it hardly warrants consideration, except that MAGA men and their surrogates are pushing it as something that should be taken seriously; it isn't something that should be taken seriously. Women are not just incubators and subjects of male power who can be treated and mistreated in whatever way those men choose, "on behalf of the fetus person, of course."
Lydia, same year for me and I remember how excited everyone I knew was when Roe was declared the law of the land. It should not have had to be, but states and men in particular just can't stay out of women's medical decisions, and women could now legally abort the fetuses implanted by rape and incest. I know a bunch of men were not pleased about that.
I was born in 1951. My grandmother was a former Catholic and both she and my mother volunteered for Planned Parenthood for years. My Mom always told me that, if I should get pregnant as a young girl she would take me to NY for healthcare, where it was legal. She was ecstatic when Roe passed. And this was a woman who had had 3 pregnancies -- me and my sister, with a miscarriage in between.
Theresa, I do remember what it was like before Roe, but never needed abortion care. If you want to have an idea of what it was like, see if you can find the old movie, "Love With The Proper Stranger" with Steve McQueen and Natalie Wood. Even though I saw it around the time you were born, it's one I have never forgotten. Note that it does have a good ending. I don't want to ruin it for you, but I want you to know it's okay to watch it.
Susan, I did know women who needed to make the choice of abortion as well as those before Roe who couldn't and had babies they couldn't care for and their hopes were dashed. They had to pretend they had a husband who was away at war or some other place to avoid the stigma. For women, there was stigma to get an abortion and a stigma to have the baby. The stupid old line was "keep your legs closed." Unfortunately, that didn't work when rape or incest were present or when passion got out of control. I say, how dare scared white men and their surrogates deny women the right to have bodily autonomy and force birth on anyone. Maybe men should keep it in their pants more often, especially that we now have DNA paternity testing.
I like the way you think, Ruth. You've made me realize that rape is a way of taking anger out on women. I've known that, but have never been able to put it into words that way.
Susan, when I was growing up in the 1960s, rape was nearly always seen as the fault of the woman/girl, well, except when it was the daughter of someone rich, famous, or powerful. It was the way she dressed or the way she walked or the way she smiled or that she was walking at night or early in the morning or on a particular street or something. No one seemed to want to acknowledge it was the man who controlled the situation. I had a friend in high school who was raped by several guys. She was a quiet girl who was supposed to stay quiet. She didn't and reported what happened and the boys were arrested. She was forced to have the baby which she gave up for adoption. We never talked about it even though we walked to school together nearly every day, but I thought her tremendously brave, first of all to have reported the crime, then after the baby was born, to return to school for her senior year. She was a role model for me and for other girls in my school. I just learned recently that another friend had been raped by boys I had never expected would do anything like that. I was shocked that she never said anything when we were in school, but she thought our relationship would change along with the friendships of others, so kept it quiet, except reported it to school officials. She considers herself lucky that she didn't become pregnant in high school. I hope things have changed since then, but my students rarely talked about relationships, sex except in general terms, and rape, again except in general terms. They didn't seem as anxious to have boy or girl friends as people did years ago. I don't know what that means. The students were surprised that having to have someone was so critical to life when I was in high school.
I graduated HS in 1962 and I remember a couple of girls getting pregnant senior year. I think they were not allowed to come to school in that state. I never heard anything about rape, but I was pretty much out of it in high school and barely had a couple of friends. I think what's changed about how important having a boyfriend or a girlfriend, especially the former, is that back then we were raised to believe that we were supposed to get married and have kids. I don't think kids today are under that same pressure. I'm really impressed that the two girls you mentioned actually reported their rapes. If anyone had raped me then I would not have been able to report it because I was taught from infancy that it was okay for men to rape me.
Women aren't property of the state. There was no fetus to save in the case of Amber Thurman yet they let her die anyway. Now a little boy doesn't have a mother anymore, a mother doesn't have her daughter anymore all because of legislative spitefulness aimed at women.
Most doctors are unwilling and/or unable to be JAILED, FINED hundreds of thousands of dollars, and LOSE THEIR LIVELIHOODS! (Let alone the 12 years of exhausting and expensive studying to get to where they are. AND passionate love of one's work, for many of us.)
kdsherpa, that is all true, but if doctors don't stand up to the bullying sometime, they will remain enslaved to a system that sees these talented dedicated human beings as just pawns that can be tossed around the board and sacrificed pretty much at will. Our doctors, nurses, and other medical professionals deserve far better than that, but it seems that if things are to change in a positive way for them and all of us, they are going to have to grab onto courage, connect with likeminded doctors and allies outside the profession to form unions, or hold walk-outs, or refuse service to the representatives and judges and their families that treat them so cavalierly, choose to live in communities and serve in hospitals and practices that value them and their skill and service, or all of those. We have let scared white men and their surrogates control too much of our lives and it is time we begin to fight back, maybe with subtlety at first, then with more power. No criminal like Donald Trump should ever have the kind of power he has and he has surrounded himself with criminals that he has just happened to pardon, something that should never be permitted, pardoning people who helped you with your crimes. So, there is a lot We the People can do, but we will need some organization happening as well as a whole lot of courage to stand against the insanity and the unconstitutionality of so much of what Republicans, corporations, and SC justices are doing to us.
"Our doctors, nurses, and other medical professionals deserve far better than that, but it seems that if things are to change in a positive way for them and all of us, they are going to have to grab onto courage, connect with likeminded doctors and allies outside the profession to form unions, or hold walk-outs, or refuse service to the representatives and judges and their families that treat them so cavalierly, choose to live in communities and serve in hospitals and practices that value them and their skill and service, or all of those. We have let scared white men and their surrogates control too much of our lives and it is time we begin to fight back, maybe with subtlety at first, then with more power." FABULOUS, Ruth! Your words invigorate me, empower those who will listen. Thank you for your excellent response. It will take thousands of doctors to be willing to join together -- power in numbers. But it's in the realm of possibility. Question: would you be willing to lead this charge?! You are so articulate! (Too old and sick from my end. One problem is that most doctors are so overwhelmed with their responsibilities + so used to always trying to do "the right thing" that I'm not sure of the response. We can always hope.)
Annie, yes, I do wonder. It can't be about their jobs because doctors are limited in supply, and they could find a job elsewhere if kicked out. I think it's that they don't want to get involved with the messiness of the process in case there is a legal issue. Doctors in a hospital that refused to treat a woman in need could all go on strike and refuse to help anyone but emergency cases. I am guessing the hospital big shots would pull back on restricting who can be helped if that happened a few times and say for a week, no money were coming in. We need to find ways to empower doctors to live their oath to do no harm and letting someone die whom they could help is doing harm, pure and simple. Doctors could also refuse to help the representatives and judges who vote for abortion restrictions and their families sending them to other states where they can get care the way they have forced women to do that for their care. There is a lot that could be done, but when there is no courage, and when the medical profession is ruled by a certain few corporations that own many hospitals and services, it is hard, but certainly not impossible. The actions would be so surprising that the media would actually want to cover it. Let's go Texas and Florida, well not Florida because doctors and everyone will be working to help the survivors of Hurricane Milton in the next weeks. During this disaster, doctors should perform any abortion requested in FL so women will be able to get about their lives in such a terrible situation. That would be a good start!
kdsherpa, you are right. It is about all those actions against doctors and others, but those doctors could band together and demand the right to care for their patients without interference from scared hospital heads who have dollar signs in their eyes, and not for the benefit of anyone but the corporation that now runs that hospital. It would mean working together and cooperating for the benefit of the patients, and I think doctors could do this.
I don't think it's heads of hospitals that are worried. The legal action would be directed ONLY at the doctor, and wouldn't be coming from a lawyer, but from the government.
kdsherpa, people have stood against governments in the past too. One way to do that is to vote out the fools who care nothing for the people, and, right now, that is Republicans. Vote Democratic up and down the ballot for our rights are on the line, those of doctors too!
Doctors are watched closely by their employers. If I want to ask for a referral, I need to do it in person while I am in an appointment. I cannot ask in an email because the employers monitor the email to and from doctors.
Louise, maybe we need to get attention on that. No employer should have that kind of power over any employee. We certainly have let rich corporations, often private equity take over our healthcare system and We the People need to find a way to take it from them. What we really need is universal healthcare and with any private entities having minimal power in the process. That will be hard, but won't be able to happen at all if we don't start working on it now.
In this situation, I don't think it's employers who have the power over employees. Unfortunately, it's much, much darker than that: it's the government who wields the power. A la 1984.
Louise, there is another side to that, and that is that there may be a regulation that says you have to be examined before a referral can be issued. I know that for the last referral I got, I was asked a lot of questions before the referral was given. Then I get a hard copy of the referral, which the new doctor needs to have me bring in.
"Doctors could also refuse to help the representatives and judges who vote for abortion restrictions and their families sending them to other states where they can get care the way they have forced women to do that for their care." I just googled to find out when it IS legal/ethical for a doctor to refuse care, and found this: "The doctor’s PERSONAL CONVICTIONS, such as a doctor refusing to perform an abortion for religious reasons..." I think it is entirely reasonable to refuse to treat a patient because one's 'personal convictions' include not treating people who are willing to allow women to die for their own political purposes. What do you think, Ruth? (I don't think that refusal could extend to their family members, but maybe it could.)
kdsherpa, I like it. It makes so much sense and it would give the doctors a way of getting their point across that is legal. It would be awesome if a huge number of doctors would do it, and PAs too.
Many docs are organized in "groups" i.e. corporate shields to reduce risk particularly obstetrics. I have found it very worthwhile to talk to young medical interns doing their residencies in high patient volume hospitals with a patient cohort that has a wide variety of high risk medical conditions that require rapid treatment execution. One learns very fast -- muy rapido.
No group can protect an individual doctor from the power of the government. Just like the American Bar Association can't protect an individual lawyer from criminal behavior. Horrifyingly, that is now what a doctor treating a women with an abortion -- even if they are bleeding out, septic, dying -- IS ILLEGAL. That good old Comstock Act of 1873, Alito's go-to decision.
Since it's going to be Federal law if the Orange Sadist wins and Project 2025 goes into effect, it won't make any difference where you live. If things stay the way they are, the decision to move one's family to another state (new schools for children, new job for spouse, new house); go through the licensure process for that state; and start a new practice are the things one would have to do. It's a major move in every sense of the word, nevertheless some OB's are already doing so.
I agree with kdsherpa. Hospitals have legal departments that have probably warned doctors off and scared them silly about legal consequences they may face.
Jane, I agree that this has happened, but if all the docs in a hospital decided to strike on behalf of a colleague who actually did the right thing and helped a woman, those suits would end. I get it that a lot of medical entities have lots of lawyers who need someone to sue to justify their existence, but it is hard to run a hospital without doctors. The problem is that they are not unionized and are at the mercy of large corporations who care about no one and nothing but profits and money for their stockholders, which of course to a large extent are themselves. Fear is a powerful deterrent, but when we bow to it, everyone loses, particularly patients who need help.
How about doctors deciding to leave that state? It's not like a doctor can't find a job in another state. We are seeing OB/GYNs bailing from Idaho, why not Georgia?
Since it's going to be Federal law if the Orange Sadist wins and Project 2025 goes into effect, it won't make any difference where you live. If things stay the way they are, the decision to move one's family to another state (new schools, spouse find a new job, all the stuff that any major move requires); go through the licensure requirements of a new state; and start a new practice are the things one would have to do. It's a major move in every sense of the word -- in some ways harder than people in other professions moving, because as a doctor one makes important connections with colleagues in other specialties over the years. Nevertheless some OB's are already doing so.
kdsherpa, yes it is complex, and that is why Republicans have targeted doctors and other medical professionals. They know they can control the hospital corporations (or think they can), so they can just snap their fingers and doctors will be too scared or too frustrated to do anything but go along with the refusal of care to women in need. There are not enough doctors in this country that if doctors all over, stood up and said "no more," we are treating anyone who comes to us with the best medical care possible and if it involves abortion so be it. "You ignorant white men need to grow up and start caring about people other than yourselves and getting re-elected." I am waiting for the first doctor, maybe someone near retirement to be the one who stirs things up. Maybe our appalling media would latch into that as an issue worthy of coverage.
Again, I wholeheartedly agree with Joyce (and Jayne). More Americans need to understand what SCOTUS justices really are doing and how obviously unconstitutional their conduct was in Dobbs. I get down into the legal weeds on issues like this, so feel free to check out what (SCOTUS justices already know) our Constitution really says and means about this very issue. The bottom line is that, at the very least, each of us is sovereign over our own selves. No woman (or couple) can be compelled to bear, birth and raise a child against their will. And no government in this country can lawfully prosecute any medical professional for providing medical assistance to a woman who is in danger of injury or death. No prosecutor can prosecute, no grand jury can indict, no judge or jury can convict or sentence any person for any such thing without violating our Constitution.
Susan, unfortunately, the "pro-lifers" don't really care since if it happens to you, it is god's will. If it happens to them, you must have done it to them. It is a sick way of looking at the world, but it seems people can talk themselves into believing just about anything, particularly if they don't have to think about it.
Right on, Ruth! It must be nice to never be responsible for anything, but at the same time I'm glad that people have expected me to be responsible. It has made me a better person.
Sally, what is done to women and has been done to women through the ages is appalling and men until recently thought little about it. I remember reading that Benjamin Franklin's sister Jane had I believe, 12 children and only 2 survived to adulthood. She was lucky she survived that physically and emotionally, but I suspect no man she knew even thought much about what she went through. I don't mean that they weren't grieved by the loss of the babies, but it was about them losing their offspring. I am sure there were men who cared, but not enough to stop making so many babies. There was abortion, but it was not reliable and many women were taught to believe that it was a sin even though it is not specifically called that in the "New Testament," which, of course was written by men.
Actually, abortion as a political issue is fairly new. It did not become a political issue until the 1970s when the republicans decided to encourage the resistance to Roe and the banning of organised christian prayer in schools as a way to get votes from people who had not been politically active. The republicans never had any intention of actually passing any laws about abortion; it was too good as an issue to campaign on.
Mary Ellen, there was a movement in religious circles in the 19th Century to stop abortion, a subject the men who voted to outlaw it had no clue even what it was, just that women had some control over their fertility. The Catholic Church declared it a massive sin in 1868 or 9 supposedly to save the life of a woman going to get an abortion. The pornography star Anthony Comstock made it and birth control things to stop when he and his male friends decided they could say what was porn and birth control or even learning about it was forbidden, so was abortion. Somehow, he got to be Postmaster and single-handedly outlawed sending anything through the mail that could stop male induced pregnancy or attempts thereof. And now Trump and Kump want to reup the Constock Act, a more than 150 year old piece of BS that will try to put women back under the control of white men who think they have a right to do whatever they wish to women and that women have no right to complain or challenge those male efforts. Well, the world has changed and abortion has become political again and Republicans, as dogs chasing a car have caught it and are trying to make things worse because they can't think of anything else to do, and controlling women's lives seems to make them feel more manly when in reality, it is just the clue we all need to know that they are trying to live as toddlers in a poor parenting situation, where they are permitted to do as much harm as possible before parents get sick of it and put them in bed for a nap. It's time We the People serve as the good parents and stop allowing the Republican tantrums by voting them out of office.
I’m certain I’m not alone in my anger at these laws.
I’m 73, but remember clearly my 3 miscarriages. Even with Roe, as a college student, my 1st miscarriage, there was a delay in treating my profuse bleeding due to an apparent judgement about whether I’d try to abort.
Not treating an incomplete miscarriage with a D&C is simply ignorant. Even if a judge doesn’t understand the fetus is already dead, withholding treatment for sepsis is inhuman.
Even if as Bernie Moreno, GOP senate candidate Ohio, suggests that woman over 50 don’t care about abortion&reproductive care were true, I have daughters in law. I also care about other women being treated so callously.
I have a daughter-in-law who is not bearing any more children, but I also care about all the women I've seen and heard about who have been treated as though they are less than human. And I care about the ones I don't know about. If so many men weren't so weak, they'd treat us better.
Suki, it is incomprehensible to me that states have written their abortion laws so that doctors (!) are afraid to do a D&C after a miscarriage. Obviously a miscarriage means the fetus is dead. Why should a doctor have to be afraid to do a D&C and why should a woman have to die for a dead fetus?
They are afraid. Drs can lose their license, even be jailed.
Hospital can lose accreditation, funding.
Trump carrying on about post birth abortion. I’m really tired of stupid people deciding laws. GOP women need reproductive care too, or is it that those who make these laws don’t think these laws apply to them?
Suki, it seems that now, conservative mostly white men can say whatever they want against women and there is little response because it does not seem anything will change as long as those who are making decisions about our bodies are they and their courts and representatives. We women are going to have to make things happen for ourselves along with a few allies. I am hoping we can do it soon enough to save the next woman in a desperate situation. We need a directory of brave doctors and others trained to provide abortion care at all levels who can take over when hospitals want to refuse help. We need a back door to bring in desperate women and have the procedures that are needed done quickly and safely without fanfare. It's time guys!
I submit your penultimate sentence might more accurately read: At every step in the political process, elected officials play a role in guaranteeing or denying a "woman's right to live."
It is far more than simply forced birth. It is a domestic terror campaign: a Crusade in modern dress aimed at reclaiming by force what today's zealots believe was taken from them, as was the rationale for the original religious wars. It is just as arrogantly an attempt to devalue more than half of the US population, contrary to the fundamental, bedrock principle of American, and in fact, international jurisprudence, of bodily integrity. It is a human right.
Dale, so where do we begin to fight back? Those men may be physically strong, but we are at least as smart, resourceful, clever, and definitely more caring and empathetic. We are also the majority. We need some strategies and tactics that will let us navigate this male fever dream of controlling everything they see, a toddlerhood extended far beyond its time. Female adults, we need a strategy for fighting back and without violence if at all possible.
Here’s how I’m fighting. I’m a former teacher who just wrote a book that explains why our country fell apart. Our schools are corrupt and everyone goes along to get along including the unions. That’s why democracy has failed. It’s called A Graver Danger: White Chalk Crime, The Stunning First-Ever Explanation for School Shootings & How We End Them. I priced the ebook as low as they let me -$2.99- through the election so people fill read it and help Kamala learn what she needs to do. So glad you want to fight. My book is my fight. We’ve become a stupid nation because of our schools.
Karen, I am sorry your schools were so bad. I taught 26 years in a very disadvantaged school district and our teachers did work hard to bring knowledge to our students. They were not all corrupt, particularly a union which enabled us to put our attention on our children rather than on fighting to keep our jobs. I guess there are districts that have corruption to the core, but there are plenty that don't. We could use better teacher training so those teachers can introduce all kinds of critical thinking into lessons without the administration being any the wiser. Sometimes, though teachers have been beaten down by curricula that are inadequate. The way to deal with that is to work together to make it better through how teachers present it, and students are encouraged to use it. Congratulations on your book. I expect you have some hope in it.
Is that the same Ken Paxton who has broken more laws than are written on the books and still stands?
We protect what we love and if you love this Blue Planet and the Life upon Her, then #VoteBlue and only BLUE - the divine ray of courage, rebirth, and service - cause it's time
I'm definitely voting, though I don't think Paxton is on the ballot this time. I have my ballot sitting right next to me (absentee, something us older folks can do). I vote in every election I'm able to.
Susan, yes, and like so many Republicans, Paxton has not been held accountable for anything he has done and is in the highest legal office in Texas. How is that possible? It just proves how messed up our justice system is, extremely biased toward conservative white men and a few other men. Why, even white women will bow and scrape to those corrupt lawyers, judges and justices, oh wait, we have one of those on the Supreme Court and several on other courts around the country, women whose souls have been bought and paid for, and who will stand against the needs of their sisters. Disgusting!
Texans CHOSE these politicians. If they deserve better than they could choose to have better. They could in one or two election cycles eliminate every single one of these backward, white supremacist misogynistic pigs.. But they don’t.
So they have exactly the government they choose to have.
I'm very much aware that Texans chose those politicians. But not all of us did choose them. Some of us voted for good people, and have been subjected to the bad ones.
“Stupid” is an adjective that triggers- what might redirect that energetic trajectory in a positive way? How can we or a what would it take courageous attitude? Thanks!
Both Paxton and Abbott are power hungry would be dictators who don’t value human life, and especially women’s lives. They are drunk on the power they have, they need to be held accountable for the deaths they have caused. Both women and immigrants have died due to their greed for power.
You are absolutely correct, Sharon. When you live on the border with Mexico, as I do, you can't help but be aware of that. I really want to see them held accountable for those deaths, but I don't have a lot of hope right now.
Amber Thurman was killed by “Judicial Execution.. a crime against humanity,…” stated by Lawrence O’Donnell on 9/17/2024…..also….Senator Kamala Harris to Brett Kavanaugh..”Are there any laws that regulate men’s bodies?…no answer from Kavanaugh…
Warning: I'm going to swear one time in this post. so if you are feeling that's not for you, please pass on by and don't say you weren't warned if you just have to look.
My experience of this kind of suppression is not unlike many women my age (in my 75th year)....I am a early childhood and beyond survivor. I'm of the generation who knew there was no one to tell so we just SURVIVED. Of course, a large number of us then also spent many years trying to straighten ourselves out in therapy counselling and lots and lots of introspection. Rage is part of that healing. To heal from rage at a grotesque injustice perpetrated on your own body at the hands of friends and family does not mean we're finally calm about it. It means we can arfuckingticulate it.
The very idea that the orange pustule rapist ever entered my country's White House still makes my gorge rise. And that's another story, BUT IT ISN'T. It's part of the reason the smart politicals grabbed hold of the orange pustule for all they were worth....to take back all those years lost to women's equality. Those years were an affront to people/men like the orange pustule and so many many more, now generally called MAGA politicos; those years were an embarrassement that all those "little women who think they can vote and have a say in this man's world" and believe me, they're mad. Look what they are doing, and inconceivably with many GOP women's help. It's not "as bad" as what's happening right now again in Afghanistan, we can speak in public, and vote and work, etc.,etc., etc., all important things that were not given but rather fought for with blood and lives destroyed. But it is the same thing.And it comes from the same place.
If you're a conservative voter and I woman I invite you to think carefully about closing your eyes and voting forr the Republican candidates up and down the ballot because you hate all things Democratic. You've been taught to relinquish your equality and trade it for something like security but turns out, nope, it's enslavement with a pink bow and maybe even a country club membership.
This isn't cynicism, this is the constant world-wide cycle for all women everywhere.
Here in the USA we've "had it pretty good" for "quite a while", so we're supposed to "let the other side have a turn at bat".
The "other side" has said "don't worry just vote this time and you'll never have to vote again"...the "other side" has told women across the globe that the correct way to deal with rape and abuse is to "close your eyes and try to enjoy it".
If you believe that your vote needs to align with your religious beliefs, that's strictly your business and I won't say a word about you and your relationship to your religion.
But if you believe that your vote aligns with EQUALITY, for all that's holy with a small h, vote Democratic up and down the ballot.
Because they ARE, oh yes, they ARE coming for every single woman in this country and they're bringing handcuffs and curfews and dress codes and withholding of necessary life sustaining items.
This is the time. Right now.
I encourage you to read history and even if you think it's biased, read it. See the facts.
After that, I am no part of your vote and I encourage you to vote no matter what you vote for. That's the last thing we have right this minute. No legislation yet exists to stop women voting.
Mimi, I'm 79 and another survivor a lot like you, with about 40 years of therapy under my belt. I have come to terms with my past, but my heart breaks for all the women who are being treated so badly by men who just don't care. IMO any man who thinks an abortion ban is a good idea should not be allowed to ever touch an adult woman or a girl child.
Susan - I hope Joyce passes on this link. On TRMS tonight, Rachel played this video of Sally Field bravely telling her story of getting an abortion when she was 17: https://youtu.be/q4J7t2Yxgbo?si=QPTaskW2DdfrWCpk
I saw that, Jason. It is absolutely heart-rending. I spent a lot of years working through issues around having been extensively sexually abused as a child, but stories like that get me going all over again. I really applaud her courage for telling that disgusting story.
Hillary Clinton once said “abortions should be safe, legal, and rare” which I’ve always interpreted as providing easily accessible birth control decreases the need for abortions. I had two wanted, healthy pregnancies resulting in two wonderful sons. I was also in my mid-30s when I gave birth. I am grateful for the pre-natal testing I had done, grateful for the results of healthy fetuses, and grateful for the choice my husband and I may have had to make were the pregnancies not healthy. The decision to have an abortion should be between a woman, her physician, and hopefully a supportive partner. No judges, politicians period!
The SCOTUS now has absolutely zero credibility with me after their decision today. I am about 30 years past childbearing age, and have never been pregnant, but I believe with all my heart that women should have the right to basic health care. I heard today that jd vance has said that if they win they will defund Planned Parenthood. That would be a disaster, which has nothing to do with abortion. I remember when I was young and poor and had an ovarian cyst. Planned Parenthood cared for me in that, as well as providing general health care like pap smears and birth control. If they are defunded, it will hurt all women who can't afford doctor fees. They have always been about healthcare, not just abortion.
There is no law that regulates a MAN’S healthcare. Abortion bans are legislative rape.
I can’t stand to read this. Any woman who doesn’t vote against Trump is not worthy of her gender.
Not sure what you mean by being worthy of your gender. But, I would hold MAGA men and women equally responsible for their vote.
ANYONE ~ man or woman - still voting for trump needs to consult a shrink - URGENTLY!
Except there's nothing wrong with them! It's the rest of us who are crazy! When I was still practicing (I was a psychiatrist), we had a rule of thumb: it's the HEALTHIEST member of a family who seeks help, not the sick ones. The healthy one sees the sickness in the family. The sick ones see nothing wrong. Sound familiar? (politically)
You're so right Kid! You need a modicum of intelligence and be able to see beyond the Fox bubble to know what's going on. I'll take no relish in saying "told you so"!
It's beyond that now. This MAGA disorder is making me ANGRY.
What is so difficult to understand about the intent of Bill’s comment? Word smithing doesn’t change the bottom line of the comment. Women who can vote for the felon are traitors to all women…no exceptions.
What people rarely consider is that most men. Can physically overpower women and force a pregnancy as a punishment. Outlawing abortion leaves us vulnerable to that. No one with any humanity should be okay with that.
Karen, you’ve got me thinking about that. Of course you’re correct with some exceptions. As a professional dancer in my 20s I built up a lean muscled body that was able to toss a much heavier man I was then dating
up and throw him across the smallish room. He hit the wall with a loud thud.
That was one. Another guy thought he could pin me down in our family living room. I wriggled away and grabbed a huge candle stick telling him: “Get out now!” My Dad then leaned over the bannister and said, ‘Is everything all right?’ My reply, “yes, he’s leaving now!” My face was black & blue the next morning. Now, we all need to arm ourselves with martial arts. Pretty ghastly right, but wise. Very wise as these monsters make rules to turn us into meek cotton balls to rape at will.
What about men who vote for Trump? Is their callous disregard for women's healthcare acceptable?
NO! I wish it would help if women refused relations with men but in reality, that would probably lead to abuse and rapes.
We are a very messed up country right now when 50% of the citizens are not in charge of their bodies and health.
This, Cathy, is what I've been advocating! If women simply refused to 'engage' with a man who would vote for tfg, or support these neanderthal laws, he would cave faster than Meatloaf in "Paradise By The Dashboard Lights"!! Plus, we already have laws regarding abuse and rape; those CAN'T be denied!
Lysistrata, written by Aristophanes and first performed in 411 BCE, is a classical Greek comedy about women who withhold sex from men during the Peloponnesian War to force them to enter peace negotiations. Notably, the play is an early example of gender roles and sexual relations in a society dominated by men.
In LYSISTRATA, the plan worked, as sex was the only thing the men ever really wanted...! I think what we have here in the 21st century is that the only thing (some) men ever really wanted/want is control over women.
And it is still a comic idea. Tells you how far we have not come
I believe the women in Iceland refused relationships in a protest against not having an equal rights amendment. I believe it led to one.
Of course not! Men don’t get pregnant and if they did this would be an entirely different conversation.
Yeah - thats been obvious for centuries! Also, something that is never mentioned by these upright? politicians is - "neutering" the other gender would take care of most of the problem. I'd like to see someone mention that in a public setting.
but she IS worthy of her vote...because no one dictates that. Period.
Mimi,
Yet.
I’ma former teacher who just wrote a book that explains why our country fell apart. Our schools are corrupt and everyone goes along to get along including the unions. That’s why democracy has failed. It’s called A Graver Danger: White Chalk Crime, The Stunning First-Ever Explanation for School Shootings & How We End Them. I priced the ebook as low as they let me -$2.99- through the election so people fill read it and help Kamala learn what she needs to do. So glad you want to fight. My book is my fight!
You don't mention the graft of corporations and the fact that most of the top 0.1% pay no taxes. I say that + "Citizens United" + the destruction of "The Fairness Doctrine" have a lot more to do with our nation's collapse!
Congrats on the book. I’m sorry you had such a negative experience with schools and unions. My family includes a long list of dedicated school teachers and my own experience with schools doesn’t jibe with yours. Before pointing at schools, please take a hard look at other factors at play in last 20 years. For starters, how about looking at the role of Rupert Murdoch and right wing media? Or, the role of dark money and billionaires like Leonard Leo in their take-over of the Supreme Court? And Trump’s co-conspirators in attempted takeover on Jan 6?
I agree about Murdoch absolutely! But you must read my book to understand what has been going on in way too many of our schools. I started an organization in 2002 and over 2000 confirmed this. I Include proof that my district submitted an altered document in the court’s record. If you’re dedicated to teaching you must learn about the ugly side to protect it. Plus schools are the antidote to Murdoch. The fact so msny are corrupt is why he was so effective. We’ve all but lost our antidote. If you’re dedicated to teaching you must be dedicated to learning about this too. Harvey Weinstein prevailed for decades because his victims weren’t heard. Please help your fellow teachers by opening your mind to the dark side you help grow by not going so.
mansplaining at its finest
I agree, I see women all the time being judged for how they vote and this happens on both sides of the political aisle. Though I am not a Republican woman, I am getting tired of only women being judged but not men. It's her decision ultimately and she should not be shamed for the way she votes.
Bill, its not only up to women! Anyone who cares about the female members of their family or community should be aware of the danger they will be exposed to if they dont do the right thing in the PRIVACY of the voting booth. Its not all about abortion, either. Its about women's right to MEDICAL CARE - mammograms, contraceptives, treatment for endometriosis(something that is never mentioned) pap smears - on and on. Women's health has pretty much always been second to men's! From what Ive read, there is no prevention to a man getting a prescription(?) for viagra! Curious, isnt it?
At the least, any woman who supports Trump or like "minded" (not sure he still has one) politicians is declaring that she deserves to be a second-class citizen.
But it's not just about abortion--it's about all civil rights. If a woman does not have a right to dominion over her own body, what rights are safe? Free speech? Nope. Due process? That's already been denied. Maybe the 2nd Amendment survives--just what we need--but no other rights are protected.
or man (or man, of his gender). it takes 2 genders to create a being.
So true. Are vasectomies on the table? Crazy but not. Women have been continued to be 2nd class citizens. We don’t have the ERA in the constitution. Why is that???
Terri, yes, that is a good question since the ERA has been ratified by sufficient states and is now just waiting for certification and placement in our Constitution where it should be already. There is no time-limit in the Constitution, just a made up piece of nonsense that white men put in place to thwart the passage of the ERA. It would be great if Biden walked the ERA to the US Archivist and ordered that it be placed in our Constitution and did it officially since that will be legal according to the Supreme Court. We need that and Biden and Harris could do that for all of us, maybe the day after the election results are announced.
Harris might get the ERA published. Biden is too catholic, I believe.
50 YEARS, now!!
No mention at all of the man’s role in pregnancy, and those making and handing down these abortion bans are ALL MEN! That is deplorable…
Deplorable and OUTRAGEOUS!!!
Nope -- Republican women equally responsible.
I agree!
Ever pay attention to all the tv ads promoting products for enhancing male virility? Mail order Viagra or Cialis, Blue Chew, ro.sparks, Hims, etc. it goes on and on. No restrictions for male products but lots of desire to restrict products for women. There is something wrong with this picture!!!
Indeed!
Great Comment. I'll look forward to Matt Gaetz and Tommy Tuberville sponsoring funding for the NIH to research more effective male contraception than condoms. Something permanent until it isn't.
Don’t hold your breath. Coach Tubby and the Teen Chaser haven’t the slightest interest in anything that might limit a man’s power.
There also isn't one that regulates a man's behaviour in these cases which is no different than legal love em and leave em. If the female is required to carry to term, we need a law that requires the participating male to pay every expense needed by his offspring and mother until offspring reaches complete adulthood or be jailed. No matter what state he tries to escape to, he will be jailed until he starts payments or will remain behind bars until offspring reaches adulthood. No exceptions. Codify the law.
Hear! Hear!
Absolutely, JennSH. That disparity (of men's healthcare not being regulated) has always bothered/angered me.
I don't recognize this country anymore.
I’ve seen the replies to my comment, there is a sadness in all of them. We could have been on a better footing, had things been handled differently over the past four years. Harris must become President, there is simply no other choice.
Do something. https://www.mobilize.us/events/phone-bank-volunteer-opportunities/
Thanks for the link Daniel, I have been doing something, thank you. Everyone must participate as best they can, drawing on their own personal strengths. Not all levels of engagement are suited for all people.
thanks!
Neither do I. If the worst happens, I will move to another country.
I'll stay and fight.
Me too, Mimi.
I’ma former teacher who just wrote a book that explains why our country fell apart. Our schools are corrupt and everyone goes along to get along including the unions. That’s why democracy has failed. It’s called A Graver Danger: White Chalk Crime, The Stunning First-Ever Explanation for School Shootings & How We End Them. I priced the ebook as low as they let me -$2.99- through the election so people fill read it and help Kamala learn what she needs to do. So glad you want to fight. My book is my fight
Why do you keep repeating yourself? TROLL
Sorry. School Shootings have made me that.
Sorry. I didn't mean to be rude. I do think that there are a LOT more issues relating to school shootings that schools themselves.
An ad?Really?
If Trump is reelected, there will be nowhere in the world that will be safe.
That's my opinion too. I was born in the UK but moved to the US 26 years ago. I am not sure how Trump winning the election with ongoing wars in Ukraine and the middle east will affect the world. However, I'm pretty sure it won't be good.
You're right, but I don't think it will happen overnight. Then again, if the orange sadist-traitor pulls us out of NATO (again), that might give pukin the red light to invade Poland, then the Baltic states, and eventually create a conflagration in Europe.
I can't go. I have a 97 yr. old parent to take care of.
I can't either. My husband has ALS and is wheelchair bound - otherwise we would probably return to Wales where he grew up.
I'm so sorry. ALS is a devastating illness. I know how terribly difficult this is for both of you. Sending you my very best wishes.
Bill, you may need one.
Thanks for being reasonable when I am not.
I had to delete half of my first draft. :---)
My entire first draft is in the dumper
My husband and I lucky enough to have EU residency and two residences (Portugal and Italy) but I will continue to fight as Mimi said below. Giving up is not an option.
I will, too. My family all agrees. I will never live in under a fascist dictatorship.
Me either. Born 1963, too young to remember before these rights were in place.
I was born in 1953, and I remember the bad old days all too well. I remember the hoops my mother had to jump through when she unexpectedly became pregnant at 40, with two teenaged daughters. At least she didn't have to resort to a back-alley abortionist.
I was 14, oldest of 4 kids, one of whom was mentally handicapped. My mom also became unexpectedly pregnant. It wasn’t until I was older that I learned that her ‘trip to New York’ was for an abortion. Her body, her right. My dad supported her and if she had confided in me, I would have done the same. If there are any Republicans or undecided voters here, please consider the very real ramifications of outlawing any women’s right to choose.
I was born in 1949. I remember several girls in my high school that had to drop out and go away to have their babies. It was considered shameful. I'm glad I got to spend the majority of my life while Roe was the law of the land. I hope it will return for today's young women.
Ruth, I hope whatever we put into place will be even more protective of women's rights than Roe. Roe opened the door to all kinds of requirements like waiting periods and ultrasounds, etc. that were costly and did harm to women of little means, totally unfair, but for men, they saw it as a way to keep women and families poor. Their racism and misogyny were showing, but somehow it was rarely presented as such. Then, there was the stupid concept of "personhood from conception." That is so completely nuts that it hardly warrants consideration, except that MAGA men and their surrogates are pushing it as something that should be taken seriously; it isn't something that should be taken seriously. Women are not just incubators and subjects of male power who can be treated and mistreated in whatever way those men choose, "on behalf of the fetus person, of course."
Lydia, same year for me and I remember how excited everyone I knew was when Roe was declared the law of the land. It should not have had to be, but states and men in particular just can't stay out of women's medical decisions, and women could now legally abort the fetuses implanted by rape and incest. I know a bunch of men were not pleased about that.
I was born in 1951. My grandmother was a former Catholic and both she and my mother volunteered for Planned Parenthood for years. My Mom always told me that, if I should get pregnant as a young girl she would take me to NY for healthcare, where it was legal. She was ecstatic when Roe passed. And this was a woman who had had 3 pregnancies -- me and my sister, with a miscarriage in between.
Laurie, Kudos to your mother and grandmother! What a great thing that there were women then who cared and stood with women!
Theresa, I do remember what it was like before Roe, but never needed abortion care. If you want to have an idea of what it was like, see if you can find the old movie, "Love With The Proper Stranger" with Steve McQueen and Natalie Wood. Even though I saw it around the time you were born, it's one I have never forgotten. Note that it does have a good ending. I don't want to ruin it for you, but I want you to know it's okay to watch it.
Susan, I did know women who needed to make the choice of abortion as well as those before Roe who couldn't and had babies they couldn't care for and their hopes were dashed. They had to pretend they had a husband who was away at war or some other place to avoid the stigma. For women, there was stigma to get an abortion and a stigma to have the baby. The stupid old line was "keep your legs closed." Unfortunately, that didn't work when rape or incest were present or when passion got out of control. I say, how dare scared white men and their surrogates deny women the right to have bodily autonomy and force birth on anyone. Maybe men should keep it in their pants more often, especially that we now have DNA paternity testing.
I like the way you think, Ruth. You've made me realize that rape is a way of taking anger out on women. I've known that, but have never been able to put it into words that way.
Susan, when I was growing up in the 1960s, rape was nearly always seen as the fault of the woman/girl, well, except when it was the daughter of someone rich, famous, or powerful. It was the way she dressed or the way she walked or the way she smiled or that she was walking at night or early in the morning or on a particular street or something. No one seemed to want to acknowledge it was the man who controlled the situation. I had a friend in high school who was raped by several guys. She was a quiet girl who was supposed to stay quiet. She didn't and reported what happened and the boys were arrested. She was forced to have the baby which she gave up for adoption. We never talked about it even though we walked to school together nearly every day, but I thought her tremendously brave, first of all to have reported the crime, then after the baby was born, to return to school for her senior year. She was a role model for me and for other girls in my school. I just learned recently that another friend had been raped by boys I had never expected would do anything like that. I was shocked that she never said anything when we were in school, but she thought our relationship would change along with the friendships of others, so kept it quiet, except reported it to school officials. She considers herself lucky that she didn't become pregnant in high school. I hope things have changed since then, but my students rarely talked about relationships, sex except in general terms, and rape, again except in general terms. They didn't seem as anxious to have boy or girl friends as people did years ago. I don't know what that means. The students were surprised that having to have someone was so critical to life when I was in high school.
I graduated HS in 1962 and I remember a couple of girls getting pregnant senior year. I think they were not allowed to come to school in that state. I never heard anything about rape, but I was pretty much out of it in high school and barely had a couple of friends. I think what's changed about how important having a boyfriend or a girlfriend, especially the former, is that back then we were raised to believe that we were supposed to get married and have kids. I don't think kids today are under that same pressure. I'm really impressed that the two girls you mentioned actually reported their rapes. If anyone had raped me then I would not have been able to report it because I was taught from infancy that it was okay for men to rape me.
... or monstrous, or both.
Women aren't property of the state. There was no fetus to save in the case of Amber Thurman yet they let her die anyway. Now a little boy doesn't have a mother anymore, a mother doesn't have her daughter anymore all because of legislative spitefulness aimed at women.
Don’t you wonder though, why doctors are not standing up for themselves?
Most doctors are unwilling and/or unable to be JAILED, FINED hundreds of thousands of dollars, and LOSE THEIR LIVELIHOODS! (Let alone the 12 years of exhausting and expensive studying to get to where they are. AND passionate love of one's work, for many of us.)
kdsherpa, that is all true, but if doctors don't stand up to the bullying sometime, they will remain enslaved to a system that sees these talented dedicated human beings as just pawns that can be tossed around the board and sacrificed pretty much at will. Our doctors, nurses, and other medical professionals deserve far better than that, but it seems that if things are to change in a positive way for them and all of us, they are going to have to grab onto courage, connect with likeminded doctors and allies outside the profession to form unions, or hold walk-outs, or refuse service to the representatives and judges and their families that treat them so cavalierly, choose to live in communities and serve in hospitals and practices that value them and their skill and service, or all of those. We have let scared white men and their surrogates control too much of our lives and it is time we begin to fight back, maybe with subtlety at first, then with more power. No criminal like Donald Trump should ever have the kind of power he has and he has surrounded himself with criminals that he has just happened to pardon, something that should never be permitted, pardoning people who helped you with your crimes. So, there is a lot We the People can do, but we will need some organization happening as well as a whole lot of courage to stand against the insanity and the unconstitutionality of so much of what Republicans, corporations, and SC justices are doing to us.
"Our doctors, nurses, and other medical professionals deserve far better than that, but it seems that if things are to change in a positive way for them and all of us, they are going to have to grab onto courage, connect with likeminded doctors and allies outside the profession to form unions, or hold walk-outs, or refuse service to the representatives and judges and their families that treat them so cavalierly, choose to live in communities and serve in hospitals and practices that value them and their skill and service, or all of those. We have let scared white men and their surrogates control too much of our lives and it is time we begin to fight back, maybe with subtlety at first, then with more power." FABULOUS, Ruth! Your words invigorate me, empower those who will listen. Thank you for your excellent response. It will take thousands of doctors to be willing to join together -- power in numbers. But it's in the realm of possibility. Question: would you be willing to lead this charge?! You are so articulate! (Too old and sick from my end. One problem is that most doctors are so overwhelmed with their responsibilities + so used to always trying to do "the right thing" that I'm not sure of the response. We can always hope.)
Annie, yes, I do wonder. It can't be about their jobs because doctors are limited in supply, and they could find a job elsewhere if kicked out. I think it's that they don't want to get involved with the messiness of the process in case there is a legal issue. Doctors in a hospital that refused to treat a woman in need could all go on strike and refuse to help anyone but emergency cases. I am guessing the hospital big shots would pull back on restricting who can be helped if that happened a few times and say for a week, no money were coming in. We need to find ways to empower doctors to live their oath to do no harm and letting someone die whom they could help is doing harm, pure and simple. Doctors could also refuse to help the representatives and judges who vote for abortion restrictions and their families sending them to other states where they can get care the way they have forced women to do that for their care. There is a lot that could be done, but when there is no courage, and when the medical profession is ruled by a certain few corporations that own many hospitals and services, it is hard, but certainly not impossible. The actions would be so surprising that the media would actually want to cover it. Let's go Texas and Florida, well not Florida because doctors and everyone will be working to help the survivors of Hurricane Milton in the next weeks. During this disaster, doctors should perform any abortion requested in FL so women will be able to get about their lives in such a terrible situation. That would be a good start!
It's not about being kicked out. It's about being JAILED, FINED hundreds of thousands of dollars, and LOSING ONE's LICENSE!!!
kdsherpa, you are right. It is about all those actions against doctors and others, but those doctors could band together and demand the right to care for their patients without interference from scared hospital heads who have dollar signs in their eyes, and not for the benefit of anyone but the corporation that now runs that hospital. It would mean working together and cooperating for the benefit of the patients, and I think doctors could do this.
Medicine and drugs are ALL run by corporate suits who don't give a damn about patients, not a damn. The ONLY thing they care about is $$$$$$$$$.
I don't think it's heads of hospitals that are worried. The legal action would be directed ONLY at the doctor, and wouldn't be coming from a lawyer, but from the government.
kdsherpa, people have stood against governments in the past too. One way to do that is to vote out the fools who care nothing for the people, and, right now, that is Republicans. Vote Democratic up and down the ballot for our rights are on the line, those of doctors too!
Doctors are watched closely by their employers. If I want to ask for a referral, I need to do it in person while I am in an appointment. I cannot ask in an email because the employers monitor the email to and from doctors.
Louise, maybe we need to get attention on that. No employer should have that kind of power over any employee. We certainly have let rich corporations, often private equity take over our healthcare system and We the People need to find a way to take it from them. What we really need is universal healthcare and with any private entities having minimal power in the process. That will be hard, but won't be able to happen at all if we don't start working on it now.
In this situation, I don't think it's employers who have the power over employees. Unfortunately, it's much, much darker than that: it's the government who wields the power. A la 1984.
Louise, there is another side to that, and that is that there may be a regulation that says you have to be examined before a referral can be issued. I know that for the last referral I got, I was asked a lot of questions before the referral was given. Then I get a hard copy of the referral, which the new doctor needs to have me bring in.
"Doctors could also refuse to help the representatives and judges who vote for abortion restrictions and their families sending them to other states where they can get care the way they have forced women to do that for their care." I just googled to find out when it IS legal/ethical for a doctor to refuse care, and found this: "The doctor’s PERSONAL CONVICTIONS, such as a doctor refusing to perform an abortion for religious reasons..." I think it is entirely reasonable to refuse to treat a patient because one's 'personal convictions' include not treating people who are willing to allow women to die for their own political purposes. What do you think, Ruth? (I don't think that refusal could extend to their family members, but maybe it could.)
kdsherpa, I like it. It makes so much sense and it would give the doctors a way of getting their point across that is legal. It would be awesome if a huge number of doctors would do it, and PAs too.
Many docs are organized in "groups" i.e. corporate shields to reduce risk particularly obstetrics. I have found it very worthwhile to talk to young medical interns doing their residencies in high patient volume hospitals with a patient cohort that has a wide variety of high risk medical conditions that require rapid treatment execution. One learns very fast -- muy rapido.
No group can protect an individual doctor from the power of the government. Just like the American Bar Association can't protect an individual lawyer from criminal behavior. Horrifyingly, that is now what a doctor treating a women with an abortion -- even if they are bleeding out, septic, dying -- IS ILLEGAL. That good old Comstock Act of 1873, Alito's go-to decision.
When does a doctor decide to get the hell out of a state that has laws like that?
Since it's going to be Federal law if the Orange Sadist wins and Project 2025 goes into effect, it won't make any difference where you live. If things stay the way they are, the decision to move one's family to another state (new schools for children, new job for spouse, new house); go through the licensure process for that state; and start a new practice are the things one would have to do. It's a major move in every sense of the word, nevertheless some OB's are already doing so.
I agree with kdsherpa. Hospitals have legal departments that have probably warned doctors off and scared them silly about legal consequences they may face.
Jane, I agree that this has happened, but if all the docs in a hospital decided to strike on behalf of a colleague who actually did the right thing and helped a woman, those suits would end. I get it that a lot of medical entities have lots of lawyers who need someone to sue to justify their existence, but it is hard to run a hospital without doctors. The problem is that they are not unionized and are at the mercy of large corporations who care about no one and nothing but profits and money for their stockholders, which of course to a large extent are themselves. Fear is a powerful deterrent, but when we bow to it, everyone loses, particularly patients who need help.
"Fear is a powerful deterrent, but when we bow to it, everyone loses, particularly patients who need help." This is so very true.
How about doctors deciding to leave that state? It's not like a doctor can't find a job in another state. We are seeing OB/GYNs bailing from Idaho, why not Georgia?
Since it's going to be Federal law if the Orange Sadist wins and Project 2025 goes into effect, it won't make any difference where you live. If things stay the way they are, the decision to move one's family to another state (new schools, spouse find a new job, all the stuff that any major move requires); go through the licensure requirements of a new state; and start a new practice are the things one would have to do. It's a major move in every sense of the word -- in some ways harder than people in other professions moving, because as a doctor one makes important connections with colleagues in other specialties over the years. Nevertheless some OB's are already doing so.
kdsherpa, yes it is complex, and that is why Republicans have targeted doctors and other medical professionals. They know they can control the hospital corporations (or think they can), so they can just snap their fingers and doctors will be too scared or too frustrated to do anything but go along with the refusal of care to women in need. There are not enough doctors in this country that if doctors all over, stood up and said "no more," we are treating anyone who comes to us with the best medical care possible and if it involves abortion so be it. "You ignorant white men need to grow up and start caring about people other than yourselves and getting re-elected." I am waiting for the first doctor, maybe someone near retirement to be the one who stirs things up. Maybe our appalling media would latch into that as an issue worthy of coverage.
Again, I wholeheartedly agree with Joyce (and Jayne). More Americans need to understand what SCOTUS justices really are doing and how obviously unconstitutional their conduct was in Dobbs. I get down into the legal weeds on issues like this, so feel free to check out what (SCOTUS justices already know) our Constitution really says and means about this very issue. The bottom line is that, at the very least, each of us is sovereign over our own selves. No woman (or couple) can be compelled to bear, birth and raise a child against their will. And no government in this country can lawfully prosecute any medical professional for providing medical assistance to a woman who is in danger of injury or death. No prosecutor can prosecute, no grand jury can indict, no judge or jury can convict or sentence any person for any such thing without violating our Constitution.
Why Are SCOTUS's Originalists Awful at Originalism? https://blackcollarcrime.substack.com/p/why-are-scotuss-originalists-awful?r=30ufvh
Some SCOTUS Originalists Are Intentionally Awful at Originalism https://blackcollarcrime.substack.com/p/some-scotus-originalists-are-intentionally?r=30ufvh
A Tale of Two Sovereignties (or Two Tales of Sovereignty) https://blackcollarcrime.substack.com/p/a-tale-of-two-sovereignties-or-two?r=30ufvh
Outstanding!
And a husband no longer has a wife…
Susan, unfortunately, the "pro-lifers" don't really care since if it happens to you, it is god's will. If it happens to them, you must have done it to them. It is a sick way of looking at the world, but it seems people can talk themselves into believing just about anything, particularly if they don't have to think about it.
Right on, Ruth! It must be nice to never be responsible for anything, but at the same time I'm glad that people have expected me to be responsible. It has made me a better person.
or a sister, niece, cousin. It's so far reaching and insidious.
Sally, what is done to women and has been done to women through the ages is appalling and men until recently thought little about it. I remember reading that Benjamin Franklin's sister Jane had I believe, 12 children and only 2 survived to adulthood. She was lucky she survived that physically and emotionally, but I suspect no man she knew even thought much about what she went through. I don't mean that they weren't grieved by the loss of the babies, but it was about them losing their offspring. I am sure there were men who cared, but not enough to stop making so many babies. There was abortion, but it was not reliable and many women were taught to believe that it was a sin even though it is not specifically called that in the "New Testament," which, of course was written by men.
Actually, abortion as a political issue is fairly new. It did not become a political issue until the 1970s when the republicans decided to encourage the resistance to Roe and the banning of organised christian prayer in schools as a way to get votes from people who had not been politically active. The republicans never had any intention of actually passing any laws about abortion; it was too good as an issue to campaign on.
Mary Ellen, there was a movement in religious circles in the 19th Century to stop abortion, a subject the men who voted to outlaw it had no clue even what it was, just that women had some control over their fertility. The Catholic Church declared it a massive sin in 1868 or 9 supposedly to save the life of a woman going to get an abortion. The pornography star Anthony Comstock made it and birth control things to stop when he and his male friends decided they could say what was porn and birth control or even learning about it was forbidden, so was abortion. Somehow, he got to be Postmaster and single-handedly outlawed sending anything through the mail that could stop male induced pregnancy or attempts thereof. And now Trump and Kump want to reup the Constock Act, a more than 150 year old piece of BS that will try to put women back under the control of white men who think they have a right to do whatever they wish to women and that women have no right to complain or challenge those male efforts. Well, the world has changed and abortion has become political again and Republicans, as dogs chasing a car have caught it and are trying to make things worse because they can't think of anything else to do, and controlling women's lives seems to make them feel more manly when in reality, it is just the clue we all need to know that they are trying to live as toddlers in a poor parenting situation, where they are permitted to do as much harm as possible before parents get sick of it and put them in bed for a nap. It's time We the People serve as the good parents and stop allowing the Republican tantrums by voting them out of office.
I’m certain I’m not alone in my anger at these laws.
I’m 73, but remember clearly my 3 miscarriages. Even with Roe, as a college student, my 1st miscarriage, there was a delay in treating my profuse bleeding due to an apparent judgement about whether I’d try to abort.
Not treating an incomplete miscarriage with a D&C is simply ignorant. Even if a judge doesn’t understand the fetus is already dead, withholding treatment for sepsis is inhuman.
Even if as Bernie Moreno, GOP senate candidate Ohio, suggests that woman over 50 don’t care about abortion&reproductive care were true, I have daughters in law. I also care about other women being treated so callously.
I have a daughter-in-law who is not bearing any more children, but I also care about all the women I've seen and heard about who have been treated as though they are less than human. And I care about the ones I don't know about. If so many men weren't so weak, they'd treat us better.
Suki, it is incomprehensible to me that states have written their abortion laws so that doctors (!) are afraid to do a D&C after a miscarriage. Obviously a miscarriage means the fetus is dead. Why should a doctor have to be afraid to do a D&C and why should a woman have to die for a dead fetus?
They are afraid. Drs can lose their license, even be jailed.
Hospital can lose accreditation, funding.
Trump carrying on about post birth abortion. I’m really tired of stupid people deciding laws. GOP women need reproductive care too, or is it that those who make these laws don’t think these laws apply to them?
Suki, it seems that now, conservative mostly white men can say whatever they want against women and there is little response because it does not seem anything will change as long as those who are making decisions about our bodies are they and their courts and representatives. We women are going to have to make things happen for ourselves along with a few allies. I am hoping we can do it soon enough to save the next woman in a desperate situation. We need a directory of brave doctors and others trained to provide abortion care at all levels who can take over when hospitals want to refuse help. We need a back door to bring in desperate women and have the procedures that are needed done quickly and safely without fanfare. It's time guys!
and gals!
I submit your penultimate sentence might more accurately read: At every step in the political process, elected officials play a role in guaranteeing or denying a "woman's right to live."
Abhorrent.
How sad is that?
It is far more than simply forced birth. It is a domestic terror campaign: a Crusade in modern dress aimed at reclaiming by force what today's zealots believe was taken from them, as was the rationale for the original religious wars. It is just as arrogantly an attempt to devalue more than half of the US population, contrary to the fundamental, bedrock principle of American, and in fact, international jurisprudence, of bodily integrity. It is a human right.
Exactly. All humans are to have agency over their own bodies at all times. End of discussion.
Dale, so where do we begin to fight back? Those men may be physically strong, but we are at least as smart, resourceful, clever, and definitely more caring and empathetic. We are also the majority. We need some strategies and tactics that will let us navigate this male fever dream of controlling everything they see, a toddlerhood extended far beyond its time. Female adults, we need a strategy for fighting back and without violence if at all possible.
Here’s how I’m fighting. I’m a former teacher who just wrote a book that explains why our country fell apart. Our schools are corrupt and everyone goes along to get along including the unions. That’s why democracy has failed. It’s called A Graver Danger: White Chalk Crime, The Stunning First-Ever Explanation for School Shootings & How We End Them. I priced the ebook as low as they let me -$2.99- through the election so people fill read it and help Kamala learn what she needs to do. So glad you want to fight. My book is my fight. We’ve become a stupid nation because of our schools.
Karen, I am sorry your schools were so bad. I taught 26 years in a very disadvantaged school district and our teachers did work hard to bring knowledge to our students. They were not all corrupt, particularly a union which enabled us to put our attention on our children rather than on fighting to keep our jobs. I guess there are districts that have corruption to the core, but there are plenty that don't. We could use better teacher training so those teachers can introduce all kinds of critical thinking into lessons without the administration being any the wiser. Sometimes, though teachers have been beaten down by curricula that are inadequate. The way to deal with that is to work together to make it better through how teachers present it, and students are encouraged to use it. Congratulations on your book. I expect you have some hope in it.
Thanks for understanding. I do have hope. Teachers who landed in decent schools have a hard time hearing this. So you are special.
Is that the same Ken Paxton who has broken more laws than are written on the books and still stands?
We protect what we love and if you love this Blue Planet and the Life upon Her, then #VoteBlue and only BLUE - the divine ray of courage, rebirth, and service - cause it's time
Yes, it is the same Ken Paxton. I wish there were a way to get rid of him. Texas deserves better.
There is- command it so- and #Vote
I'm definitely voting, though I don't think Paxton is on the ballot this time. I have my ballot sitting right next to me (absentee, something us older folks can do). I vote in every election I'm able to.
Susan, yes, and like so many Republicans, Paxton has not been held accountable for anything he has done and is in the highest legal office in Texas. How is that possible? It just proves how messed up our justice system is, extremely biased toward conservative white men and a few other men. Why, even white women will bow and scrape to those corrupt lawyers, judges and justices, oh wait, we have one of those on the Supreme Court and several on other courts around the country, women whose souls have been bought and paid for, and who will stand against the needs of their sisters. Disgusting!
Texans CHOSE these politicians. If they deserve better than they could choose to have better. They could in one or two election cycles eliminate every single one of these backward, white supremacist misogynistic pigs.. But they don’t.
So they have exactly the government they choose to have.
I'm very much aware that Texans chose those politicians. But not all of us did choose them. Some of us voted for good people, and have been subjected to the bad ones.
I think this is a reflection of people who don’t vote. Too stupid to realize the power and privilege of being a U.S. citizen.
“Stupid” is an adjective that triggers- what might redirect that energetic trajectory in a positive way? How can we or a what would it take courageous attitude? Thanks!
Both Paxton and Abbott are power hungry would be dictators who don’t value human life, and especially women’s lives. They are drunk on the power they have, they need to be held accountable for the deaths they have caused. Both women and immigrants have died due to their greed for power.
You are absolutely correct, Sharon. When you live on the border with Mexico, as I do, you can't help but be aware of that. I really want to see them held accountable for those deaths, but I don't have a lot of hope right now.
Amber Thurman was killed by “Judicial Execution.. a crime against humanity,…” stated by Lawrence O’Donnell on 9/17/2024…..also….Senator Kamala Harris to Brett Kavanaugh..”Are there any laws that regulate men’s bodies?…no answer from Kavanaugh…
Hear hear!
Lawrence was powerful! He is the only commentator I watch now. Powerful.
One of your best. this is an incredibly, infuriatingly tragic situation.
Warning: I'm going to swear one time in this post. so if you are feeling that's not for you, please pass on by and don't say you weren't warned if you just have to look.
My experience of this kind of suppression is not unlike many women my age (in my 75th year)....I am a early childhood and beyond survivor. I'm of the generation who knew there was no one to tell so we just SURVIVED. Of course, a large number of us then also spent many years trying to straighten ourselves out in therapy counselling and lots and lots of introspection. Rage is part of that healing. To heal from rage at a grotesque injustice perpetrated on your own body at the hands of friends and family does not mean we're finally calm about it. It means we can arfuckingticulate it.
The very idea that the orange pustule rapist ever entered my country's White House still makes my gorge rise. And that's another story, BUT IT ISN'T. It's part of the reason the smart politicals grabbed hold of the orange pustule for all they were worth....to take back all those years lost to women's equality. Those years were an affront to people/men like the orange pustule and so many many more, now generally called MAGA politicos; those years were an embarrassement that all those "little women who think they can vote and have a say in this man's world" and believe me, they're mad. Look what they are doing, and inconceivably with many GOP women's help. It's not "as bad" as what's happening right now again in Afghanistan, we can speak in public, and vote and work, etc.,etc., etc., all important things that were not given but rather fought for with blood and lives destroyed. But it is the same thing.And it comes from the same place.
If you're a conservative voter and I woman I invite you to think carefully about closing your eyes and voting forr the Republican candidates up and down the ballot because you hate all things Democratic. You've been taught to relinquish your equality and trade it for something like security but turns out, nope, it's enslavement with a pink bow and maybe even a country club membership.
This isn't cynicism, this is the constant world-wide cycle for all women everywhere.
Here in the USA we've "had it pretty good" for "quite a while", so we're supposed to "let the other side have a turn at bat".
The "other side" has said "don't worry just vote this time and you'll never have to vote again"...the "other side" has told women across the globe that the correct way to deal with rape and abuse is to "close your eyes and try to enjoy it".
If you believe that your vote needs to align with your religious beliefs, that's strictly your business and I won't say a word about you and your relationship to your religion.
But if you believe that your vote aligns with EQUALITY, for all that's holy with a small h, vote Democratic up and down the ballot.
Because they ARE, oh yes, they ARE coming for every single woman in this country and they're bringing handcuffs and curfews and dress codes and withholding of necessary life sustaining items.
This is the time. Right now.
I encourage you to read history and even if you think it's biased, read it. See the facts.
After that, I am no part of your vote and I encourage you to vote no matter what you vote for. That's the last thing we have right this minute. No legislation yet exists to stop women voting.
But there's always tomorrow.
Mimi, I'm 79 and another survivor a lot like you, with about 40 years of therapy under my belt. I have come to terms with my past, but my heart breaks for all the women who are being treated so badly by men who just don't care. IMO any man who thinks an abortion ban is a good idea should not be allowed to ever touch an adult woman or a girl child.
Susan - I hope Joyce passes on this link. On TRMS tonight, Rachel played this video of Sally Field bravely telling her story of getting an abortion when she was 17: https://youtu.be/q4J7t2Yxgbo?si=QPTaskW2DdfrWCpk
Roe, Roe, Roe the vote!
I saw that, Jason. It is absolutely heart-rending. I spent a lot of years working through issues around having been extensively sexually abused as a child, but stories like that get me going all over again. I really applaud her courage for telling that disgusting story.
Hi Susan. I just wanted to sit next to you here for a moment. xo
Thank you Mimi. I'm enjoying the good company.
likewise. count on me.
Brava -- preach it, sister!!!
Bravo!!!
Amen
Awomen.
These people who block abortions are vile. They would rather have a pregnant woman die along with the fetus than save her life. Hardly pro-life.
They’re only pro life to save a fetus, but once it is born, the State becomes invisible to any defense of a child’s rights.
no maternity leave. no child care. no help with tuition. and, and, and.......
So true!
They are not about "life" at all - only about control.
I’m literally sick. The lack of humanity….
Me too…
Me three
Hillary Clinton once said “abortions should be safe, legal, and rare” which I’ve always interpreted as providing easily accessible birth control decreases the need for abortions. I had two wanted, healthy pregnancies resulting in two wonderful sons. I was also in my mid-30s when I gave birth. I am grateful for the pre-natal testing I had done, grateful for the results of healthy fetuses, and grateful for the choice my husband and I may have had to make were the pregnancies not healthy. The decision to have an abortion should be between a woman, her physician, and hopefully a supportive partner. No judges, politicians period!
Yes and it’s no one else’s biz if they are rare or frequent.
We had a word for these monsters when I grew up in Georgia: “trashy.” It still fits a long list of the grifters in our government at every level.
The SCOTUS now has absolutely zero credibility with me after their decision today. I am about 30 years past childbearing age, and have never been pregnant, but I believe with all my heart that women should have the right to basic health care. I heard today that jd vance has said that if they win they will defund Planned Parenthood. That would be a disaster, which has nothing to do with abortion. I remember when I was young and poor and had an ovarian cyst. Planned Parenthood cared for me in that, as well as providing general health care like pap smears and birth control. If they are defunded, it will hurt all women who can't afford doctor fees. They have always been about healthcare, not just abortion.
And Planned Parenthood provides sex education and condoms to young mmen.
I wasn't aware of that but am glad to hear that and I'm not surprised at all.
Just so damned discouraged. Can’t wait to cast my ballot. It better matter.
I hear ya!