Another question... It's my understanding from listening to you, Andrew, and other lawyers on MSNBC, the fact that someone (DJT in this case) removes classified documents from the security of where they are stored, is breaking the law and punishable by up to x years in prison. I've heard former CIA director John Brennan say if he had done so, he be in custody immediately. WHY is this not the case for DJT? Is the DOJ looking for a "higher" crime with which to charge him?
Always appreciate your comments when you appear on MSNBC.
Great question. I had a Top Secret clearance while I was a young guy in the Marines. I was the Cassidy Hutchinson of the office: A company-grade officer among full-bird Colonels and Generals. Taking TS docs out of the office would have meant a trip to the brig for any of us. I put the boss's books together each morning at 5. He was a 3-star General who became Commandant. One unclassified book was for the ride to the office with his driver. The other was classified material that he would read upon arrival at the office. The idea of classified, especially TS stuff, leaving the office is unimaginable. NIS would have prosecuted any of us for violating that protocol. Regardless of your MOH, Navy Cross, Silver Star, or rank, that person would have gone to the brig. How is TFG getting away with this if everyone is equal under the rule of law?
If I remember correctly, Christina Bobb's affidavit last June written by someone else stated she had been 'informed' that no further materials remained at M-a-L. (1) Injudicious on her part at the very least, but if she had no reason to believe the assertion was false, did she save herself from crossing the ethical line by the disclaimer? (2) Have you heard anything about whether she will be questioned by the FBI, setting her up as a potential witness against the person who falsely informed her that all documents had been returned?
My go-to for legal advice: the law firm of Vance, Weissman, Katyal, Rosenberg, McQuade, Wine-Banks, Tribe & Associates
Agreed. Just when next shock pulls the rug out from under us, leaving us reeling, here comes Joyce & Co. grounding us with what is and what isn’t. Plain spoken, straight up. Banishing idle, tortuous speculation, I’m so ooo grateful.
Thank you so much for your expert summary -- a 10-minute master class. I feel duly armed if the subject were to arise with friends or family. That's such a helpful tool in trying to ground fractious conversations in reality. Saving each of your running commentaries. But, but, but ... What to do about Judge Cannon's aberant rulings remains a burning question in my mind. Last night on MSNBC, Andrew Weissmann repeatedly refered to Cannon as "the root of the problem," i.e. inserting boomerangs into DOJ's investigation. Can't she be removed from the case? or the bench? What would it take?
And in terms of Chris Kise, it appears that he had a strategy that made the most sense for Trump in the long run to minimize his liability in this documents case, but Trump only knows the rules he learned from Ray Cohn: attack, attack, attack, and never admit that you are wrong no matter how obvious it is. It appears that the entire Republican party has adopted this strategy: We will keep lying so long that (too) many people will believe our lies and our phony outrage at being accused in the first place.
Tom Taft: I have felt this way since the early days of Trump's presidency. It quickly became apparent that almost everything he said or did was in some way improper or possibly criminal (including undermining the FBI & DOJ). I couldn't keep up, and the FBI/DOJ couldn't either. It has taken six years for law enforcement to get a handle on it and it's not nearly over yet. The critical long-term problem: neutralizing the R's in Congress who continue to enable him.
Well, its a little quicker since Merrick Garland became AG. The Barr DOJ did everything it possibly could to enable, then delay and obfuscate Trump's guilt.
I assume you note the reference in Joyce's piece to Cleta Mitchell. Mitchell, as Joyce noted, was removed from her firm. Another member of that same law firm was Chris Kise, who took a $3 million dollar retainer, although I am not sure that is the right word, and severed his relationship with the same firm.
"We’ve seen Trump lawyers like Rudy Giuliani face disbarment. There are also Trump lawyers who’ve been convicted of crimes (Michael Cohen), forced to sever ties with their law firms (Cleta Mitchell), or who remain under investigation (Sidney Powell, John Eastman, and too many more to name, although the New York Times has a good list in this September piece)."
Dismissed from the firm is probably not accurate. She was forced to leave the firm. More here:
Yes, Kise put his signature on a strategy that is TFG approved, right into the Supreme Court's lap, and Justice Thomas is taking his sweet time with TFG's "emergency". Something is cooking and it smells rotten -- I expect nothing less than rotten from him and his lawyers.
Thanks so much, Joyce. Your wisdom and knowledge is helping me get through these terrible times. I have every copy of your "Civil Discourses"! Enjoying watching you on the nightly news as well!
Thank you so much for this Joyce. It explains where ethical lawyers can set their boundaries.
A question I keep asking (which really can’t be answered with just legal knowledge I guess), is why oh why do lawyers still get sucked in to working for this notorious client?? Surely they see what everyone else sees? I guess it goes down the rabbit hole of what they are looking for. Fame maybe or infamy😲
You're right, it may have to do with Hubris. They think they are so good they can control Trump, and show the legal world how clever they are. What a good defense lawyer they are.
Thank you Joyce. You bring clarity for me in a very murky historical moment. The amazing thing to me is how many people are turned to the “dark side” by association with DJT. I may see it intellectually but at heart, cannot fathom the attraction. Maybe that is how evil works?
I agree and social media amplifies the lies. But why are so many tainted by these lies from this horribly flawed person. That is where my understanding ends.
Thank you! We can always count on you to give us a thorough and understandable answer to those of us who are not lawyers. I never miss a program that I know you will be on. Thanks again!
I am so grateful for the work you and your colleagues are doing to explain the implications of Trump’s legal actions.
We rely on professional organizations to provide oversight of those professions. The medical profession does a pretty lousy job of sanctioning incompetent physicians. I’m not getting a warm feeling about whether there is any oversight of the judiciary. I anticipate websites with ratings of judges so rich people can shop for judges most likely to give them what they want, along with satisfied “customers” attesting to how a judge made their legal troubles go away.
This is very interesting. And what of Supreme Court Judges who lie in their Confirmation Hearings?
Another question... It's my understanding from listening to you, Andrew, and other lawyers on MSNBC, the fact that someone (DJT in this case) removes classified documents from the security of where they are stored, is breaking the law and punishable by up to x years in prison. I've heard former CIA director John Brennan say if he had done so, he be in custody immediately. WHY is this not the case for DJT? Is the DOJ looking for a "higher" crime with which to charge him?
Always appreciate your comments when you appear on MSNBC.
Great question. I had a Top Secret clearance while I was a young guy in the Marines. I was the Cassidy Hutchinson of the office: A company-grade officer among full-bird Colonels and Generals. Taking TS docs out of the office would have meant a trip to the brig for any of us. I put the boss's books together each morning at 5. He was a 3-star General who became Commandant. One unclassified book was for the ride to the office with his driver. The other was classified material that he would read upon arrival at the office. The idea of classified, especially TS stuff, leaving the office is unimaginable. NIS would have prosecuted any of us for violating that protocol. Regardless of your MOH, Navy Cross, Silver Star, or rank, that person would have gone to the brig. How is TFG getting away with this if everyone is equal under the rule of law?
If I remember correctly, Christina Bobb's affidavit last June written by someone else stated she had been 'informed' that no further materials remained at M-a-L. (1) Injudicious on her part at the very least, but if she had no reason to believe the assertion was false, did she save herself from crossing the ethical line by the disclaimer? (2) Have you heard anything about whether she will be questioned by the FBI, setting her up as a potential witness against the person who falsely informed her that all documents had been returned?
My go-to for legal advice: the law firm of Vance, Weissman, Katyal, Rosenberg, McQuade, Wine-Banks, Tribe & Associates
We are sitting at the feet of the masters, freely offering a classical education to anyone who is curious and willing to listen. What a gift.
It’s true. Legal advice from this outstanding group is comforting amidst so much disinformation or apathy.
Agreed. Just when next shock pulls the rug out from under us, leaving us reeling, here comes Joyce & Co. grounding us with what is and what isn’t. Plain spoken, straight up. Banishing idle, tortuous speculation, I’m so ooo grateful.
And we won’t leave the room or put the iPad down when an MSNBC anchor says, coming up next is … any one if those in the we-the-people’s “ law firm.”
Harry Litman just made partner! (So sorry, Harry.)
Thank you so much for your expert summary -- a 10-minute master class. I feel duly armed if the subject were to arise with friends or family. That's such a helpful tool in trying to ground fractious conversations in reality. Saving each of your running commentaries. But, but, but ... What to do about Judge Cannon's aberant rulings remains a burning question in my mind. Last night on MSNBC, Andrew Weissmann repeatedly refered to Cannon as "the root of the problem," i.e. inserting boomerangs into DOJ's investigation. Can't she be removed from the case? or the bench? What would it take?
Your timing in this piece is perfect! It hits me, that more than anything, I’m tired of terrible human beings continuing to lie.....
Do you think Hershel figured that out on his own or that 45 advised him?
And in terms of Chris Kise, it appears that he had a strategy that made the most sense for Trump in the long run to minimize his liability in this documents case, but Trump only knows the rules he learned from Ray Cohn: attack, attack, attack, and never admit that you are wrong no matter how obvious it is. It appears that the entire Republican party has adopted this strategy: We will keep lying so long that (too) many people will believe our lies and our phony outrage at being accused in the first place.
Tom Taft
Tom Taft: I have felt this way since the early days of Trump's presidency. It quickly became apparent that almost everything he said or did was in some way improper or possibly criminal (including undermining the FBI & DOJ). I couldn't keep up, and the FBI/DOJ couldn't either. It has taken six years for law enforcement to get a handle on it and it's not nearly over yet. The critical long-term problem: neutralizing the R's in Congress who continue to enable him.
Well, its a little quicker since Merrick Garland became AG. The Barr DOJ did everything it possibly could to enable, then delay and obfuscate Trump's guilt.
I assume you note the reference in Joyce's piece to Cleta Mitchell. Mitchell, as Joyce noted, was removed from her firm. Another member of that same law firm was Chris Kise, who took a $3 million dollar retainer, although I am not sure that is the right word, and severed his relationship with the same firm.
Thanks! I didn’t know the link between Mitchell and Kise!
Good to jknow.
Not familiar with Cleta Mitchell. Why was she dismissed from law firm?
"We’ve seen Trump lawyers like Rudy Giuliani face disbarment. There are also Trump lawyers who’ve been convicted of crimes (Michael Cohen), forced to sever ties with their law firms (Cleta Mitchell), or who remain under investigation (Sidney Powell, John Eastman, and too many more to name, although the New York Times has a good list in this September piece)."
Dismissed from the firm is probably not accurate. She was forced to leave the firm. More here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleta_Mitchell
Thx, Issohn
Yes, Kise put his signature on a strategy that is TFG approved, right into the Supreme Court's lap, and Justice Thomas is taking his sweet time with TFG's "emergency". Something is cooking and it smells rotten -- I expect nothing less than rotten from him and his lawyers.
https://www.lawfareblog.com/trump-asks-supreme-court-reverse-eleventh-circuit-ruling-granting-justice-department-access
Thanks so much, Joyce. Your wisdom and knowledge is helping me get through these terrible times. I have every copy of your "Civil Discourses"! Enjoying watching you on the nightly news as well!
“a lying liar”:)
Thank you so much for this Joyce. It explains where ethical lawyers can set their boundaries.
A question I keep asking (which really can’t be answered with just legal knowledge I guess), is why oh why do lawyers still get sucked in to working for this notorious client?? Surely they see what everyone else sees? I guess it goes down the rabbit hole of what they are looking for. Fame maybe or infamy😲
$$$
Except that this particular client never pays his bills!! Maybe they think they can milk their notoriety afterwards?? 😂
You're right, it may have to do with Hubris. They think they are so good they can control Trump, and show the legal world how clever they are. What a good defense lawyer they are.
I like this. Agree this is possible 👍
Thank you Joyce. You bring clarity for me in a very murky historical moment. The amazing thing to me is how many people are turned to the “dark side” by association with DJT. I may see it intellectually but at heart, cannot fathom the attraction. Maybe that is how evil works?
Mass media plays a big part of it and the immediacy and repetition of lies.
I agree and social media amplifies the lies. But why are so many tainted by these lies from this horribly flawed person. That is where my understanding ends.
Repetition strategy. The more something is repeated the moe people believe it generally if they are not doing their homework.
Thank you for marshaling your colleagues to answer this question. So helpful!
Thank you! We can always count on you to give us a thorough and understandable answer to those of us who are not lawyers. I never miss a program that I know you will be on. Thanks again!
This is great--thank you.
Wonderfully refreshing to read about ethics! Ethical behavior…WOW! What a concept!
Ethics! I love the sound of that word. I'd love to hear it talked about more these days.
Here’s another word that I have been missing; integrity. Remember when we thought this was a thing?
Your last paragraph illustrates perfectly Rick Wilson's assertion: "Everything Trump Touches Dies."
In psychology, the clue for cluster B personality disorders is “trail of wreckage.” That term should be the title of a book about Trump.
I am so grateful for the work you and your colleagues are doing to explain the implications of Trump’s legal actions.
We rely on professional organizations to provide oversight of those professions. The medical profession does a pretty lousy job of sanctioning incompetent physicians. I’m not getting a warm feeling about whether there is any oversight of the judiciary. I anticipate websites with ratings of judges so rich people can shop for judges most likely to give them what they want, along with satisfied “customers” attesting to how a judge made their legal troubles go away.