Joyce, we just have to get Biden elected. We all know we deal with an administration, not just a President and Joe has a strong one. Frankly, I feel so anxious I had to take the evening off of work. I have seen Pres. Biden in person recently and he's been fine. He was fine before and after the debate. I'm really confused and concerned for our future.
Trump's portion of the debate is a common rhetorical device. It’s taught in sales seminars and seminaries. Billy Graham was the master. Trump is Cabo Timeshare Top Salesman good. He said his rallies were his debate prep, and they are purely an exercise in Gish Gallop*. Biden's preparation and game plan couldn’t have been any worse. He wanted a debate...he should have known that isn't what he'd get. His team let him down.
*Gish Gallop is a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don't know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them. It's a form of gas lighting.
The Gish Gallop can be responded to by choosing the weakest, dumbest, most ludicrous argument your opponent has presented and tear that argument to shreds (also known as the weak point rebuttal).
Yes. Team let him down, and it was not a debate. However, a debater does not a president make. Biden has successfully gotten an enormous amount done with an obstructive Republican party, particularly in the House, because he is a master at his own form of getting things done. We have been able to count on him to keep our government running and our country moving forward. I am glad I did not watch the "debate." Seems like it was too big a distraction. Still it should give plenty of fodder for ads for the rest of the campaign.
Agreed, a debater does not a president make. However, I rue the negativity that resulted. There was enough crap about his being too old, etc., etc., without the added undesirable remarks and commentary. I wish the Biden campaign were as visible as all the media attention on Trump.
Our media is not up to the task of being independent and democratic. We need to accept that and find alternative sources of information in the independent press. It is the media that turned Biden not doing well against a charismatic autocratic using a propaganda dissemination technique to debate, instead of debating against Biden, instead of against Trump the criminal. So we hope the media will be better prepared for the next debate, and hopefully Biden will be healthy then. He did do the job of getting his ideas and accomplishments out there, but CNN was not helpful. We should be angry that our media has capitulated to the demands of a fascist press, which is parroting the ideas of the far right. When history is examined, if we even get to have history taught any more, the American press will be analyzed for the problems that it poses being owned by filthy rich oligarchs who just want to ensure that their taxes are low.
Now that the media have to bend to advertisers, and the dollar is the only value Americans revere, we are lost. That's why I watch "Democracy Now" as well as MSNBC, and why I think our species is doomed. We--the fucking oligarchs--are destroying the planet for $$$$$$$$ and we are too STUPID to understand that we can't replace the planet once the air, water, and earth are fatally poisoned. As Stephen Hawking said, the two worst faults of our species are greed and stupidity. As I have said, the two rights most Americans value most are the right to be stupid and the right to be ignorant. I've spent a career as a philosophy professor trying to change that, with limited success.
Yes! I've turned them all off, except a few minutes a day with BBCAmerica to find out what in the hell is going on in the world. I read my news. We've been wronged by our media outlets, journalists and so-called experts. I've left messages at MSNBC's comment line a number of times telling them that their 24/7 coverage of "every little thing trump" is malpractice. No wonder many Americans have no idea what the Biden administration has done for us all. Where is Uncle Walter when we need him? At least in the 60s and most of the 70s we had NEWS, not entertainment.
Yes, Victoria, the media is not trusted too much or well, the ones we like are sort of trusted, and we keep going back to them for our news. Our Supreme Court is less trusted and less trustworthy. The conservative majority has proven over and over during the past 25 years or so that they are not for our Constitution, for our people, or for anything else but rich, white, pseudo-christian men and corporations that are mostly owned and operated by those rich, white, pseudo-christian men. It is our responsibility to get the word out that the Supreme Court's conservatives are working to take away our democracy. They don't care because they have jobs for life, so will do everything they can to promote Baby Donnie and his crew. It is unclear why except that they think Baby Donnie will keep letting them take bribes and gifts, and act against our country, just like the good little corrupt justices they are.
Yes, I totally agree.Everybody better do up the 4th of July right this Thursday because our putrid scotus is trying to make this one our last one to celebrate.
Jan, I sure do wish our media were really some kind of fair, as they claim they are. I began noticing the media obsession with Trump first when he pulled out the BS about Obama's birth certificate. It was a total non-issue because having been born to an American citizen mother, he would be American. Then, there's having been born in Hawaii, a state since 2 years before he was born and a territory for longer than that. The media went crazy and demanded copies of his birth certificate and didn't really want to see it. They wanted the controversy, lie though it was. When Toddler-Trump rode the golden escalator, the media loved it and had to report heavily on it despite the fact that most of the people in attendance were paid to be there. The medias pumping up of Trump got him lots of notice and people starting to think he was someone they should care about and vote for. They believed the BS related to his reality TV show "The Apprentice." Trump has been either the first or second media story day after day for nearly the 9 years since he rode the escalator. That is insane, but for a while back in early 2016, I counted the days and in 2 months, I think it was March and April, Trump was the first or second story on NPR50 of the days. I had my students check on their local media or social media and they told me it was a lot, far more than Obama who was actually president and far far more than Clinton who was actually running for president and by then had nearly won the primaries. All they could say about her were the words Ben Gazi or something about her emails. That is disgusting especially since Trump had nothing honest to say, just a lot of blaming, insulting, and complaining that Obama hadn't done anything. Change the names and it is just like now. We cannot count on our media and that is very depressing, but also motivating (it's weird) and I know I have to do what I can to see that ignorant, uninformed, dictator wannabee, Toddler-Trump never gets into office of any kind again.
Linda, I would submit that the core issue is whether Biden can think and speak extemporaneously, admittedly a low bar for a president, but one that Biden no longer can be relied on to clear. If last Thursday were just a bad night, Biden could reassure doubters by doing a bunch of interviews and unscripted town halls. Short of that, I fear the results this November were voters to conclude that neither he nor his campaign believes he can pull it off.
Barbara, we will need to agree to disagree. I feel that conflating the job of campaigning with the job of running the country is basically what the Supreme Court just did. I am not going to look at what skills are needed for a campaign, but let us hope that Biden's people guide him well and learn from this debate. I did not watch it. The speaking skills as a president he has done an excellent job on. He is respected by democratic leaders around the world, as well as keeping Putin at bay from NATO countries. This is huge! He is also respected in Congress so that he has been able to keep our government running despite the despotic obstructionism from the Republican party, many of whom I suspect will secretly vote for Biden, just for fear of Trump's destructiveness. Biden has raised a lot of money since that debate, has not lost any voters, just some voter's confidence. If I were to place my disappointment anywhere it would be at the media who has no business calling for him to resign, or suggesting that an excellent sitting president should get out of the race, while not even suggesting this once about Trump who is a criminal, insurrectionist, treasonous, and fascist! Why is that/ We are a democracy. His candidacy should be illegal. The fact that our press is having the priorities it is to sell their media is disgusting and they are looking more like Hungarian and Russian press than liberal democratic press. MSNBC blew it by not real time fact checking. If they cannot figure out how to do that, they are not fit to run a "Debate" between a democrat and an autocrat. Trump is a charismatic fascistic charlatan. Why is our press not up to the task of making clear to the people that they were manipulated in the so called debate to focusing on the WRONG THINGS? Please watch what this expert on fascists, fascist propaganda is saying. Prof. Ruth Ben-Ghiat. https://youtu.be/tX7lij4fETc?si=xV7-VtooRQJGX5WZ
Linda, he was on CNN, not MSNBC, and CNN was shameful. Also, the first post debate poll showed a 10% drop for Biden. Hopefully that is just a blip or a bad poll. Otherwise, I take your points and agree with them. A lot of mistakes were made, the worst of them by Biden's debate team. Biden tried very hard to follow the plan, exhausted, overprepared, half sick, in the face of Trump lies. Biden should just tell us that and move on.
I think you should hear what Prof. Ruth Ben-Ghiat has to say about it. It was the broadcasters fault that they did not real time fact check. I can show you a good example of this in Euro News. There is an Italian Broadcaster who recently interviewed German and Portuguese right wingers, and for every lie they told she had the refutal in writing. So, her audience experienced what they said, along with the refutals, as well as her analysis later on. Right in real time. This is imperative.
So, it does not matter which station aired it, the point is that no one, not even the slick orators can fight this with normal debate style. You did not observe a debate. You observed a fascist expert "Gish Galloping." Please understand that. You are being manipulated by fascist propaganda. That includes the press telling you the biggest problem was Joe Bidens ineffective debating, not the Donald Trump is dangerous. Our press is woefully ill prepared to rise to the demands of reporting on this election. I do not agree with you on blaming Biden. And, he has admitted his weaknesses, without pointing out what a shitty job the station did of running it. Next time he should stay home if he is ill, and woozy from cold medication. How would that have gone over?
The longer this chatter goes on about Biden the harsher the opinions will be. Biden cannot ignore it or turn his back on the comments! He must address the people and stop listening to Jill and Hunter! Stand and face it, Mr. President!
Why was Biden exhausted, overprepared and half sick? Did he forget that he had a debate to get ready for?? Biden had one chance to save this country: go on stage and don't give any impression that you are age impaired. Instead he repeatedly froze. Mouth agape and staring blankly. Instead of Biden trying to memorize facts (that he should have already known) he should have asked his team to work with him on looking assertive, pretending to take notes while Trump was talking, better makeup, more sleep, golf,... well anything really. I agree his debate team should be fired. But Biden bears the responsibility for hiring them. My guess is that his immediate team is so used to him being doddery that they underestimated how much it comes a shock to the rest of us.
Suzc, YES! I think the debate team could have given him ways to respond to good intelligent questions, and then said , "Nevertheless, Joe, be yourself. You know this stuff. Remember what you have accomplished in your first term."
Linda, Considering we’re both committed to defeating Trump, and very much for the same reasons, rather than agreeing to disagree, I prefer to think we’re both working to preserve our democratic republic in our own way.
Re the "debate," I'm seeing a lot of criticism of the media for the lack of real time fact checking. As I understood it, 'no fact checking' was one of the conditions for the debate that was spelled out in advance--and that BOTH SIDES AGREED TO. Huge mistake by the Biden team, IMHO. That was an open invitation to Trump to lie his head off, and he certainly did.
I would think with current technology, and especially since the questions are known in advance, real time fact checking should be possible.
The rationale apparently was, fact checking was the opponent's job. So Biden was supposed to just keep repeating, "That's a lie" after everything Trump said? After enough repetitions, that would just make Biden look petty and stupid, not to mention correcting each of Trump's lies eating up Biden's allotted time. How much better a neutral and authoritative voice pronouncing "UNTRUE" and providing brief correct info after each of Trump's lies.
I am unhappy with how the leaders of the rest of the world are not being heard from in rebuttal of Trump's statements saying that they laugh at Biden, etc..
Les, I couldn't agree with you more. Pres. Biden has done a great deal to assure world leaders -- at least of democratic countries -- that the USA is not beyond the pale.
Actually, CNN hosted and moderated the debate, not MSNBC. MSNBC was given rights to broadcast CNN's debate, as were other MSM networks. CNN is now owned by a rightwing entity, Liberty - so don't expect much fact-checking of MAGAs there.
I hope he can still speak extemporaneously. If he cannot, you are making the case for an immediate article 25 action.
Is that what you mean to do?
He is surrounded by competent and experienced staff that can help run the country but apparently not a campaign. I too would like an extensive 60 minutes style interview, soon.
I would like us to focus on what happened yesterday at the Supreme Court. The real problem. Biden is the candidate. There will be no switching of horses in mid-stream. The object is to make sure trump is not re-elected. Not to nit pick 90 minutes.
This is not a debate society. Why is that so hard to understand? The man has been one of the best presidents in the last 80 years and now everyone is back to high school and acting accordingly. It was a DEBATE! Not the running of the government. That speaks for itself. He is doing a magnificent job. Why is that so hard to get through so many people's head?
The issue is what most voters think. Three quarters have long thought Biden was too old. But since there are arguments about how well some 90 year olds function. Some of us think we can just
set aside those concerns. I guess all those examples also mean some of us would support a 90year old candidate. Can we return to the real world? The issue is whether Biden can win. In a reasonable world the total fucking moron (and lying fascist) Trump would have no chance. We don’t live in that world so we need to adjust when Biden showed the world he wasn’t up to it.
Jen, An inability to think and speak extemporaneously is not grounds for removal from office. Nonetheless, given the stakes, if Biden can’t show that last Thursday’s meandering debate performance was an outlier, while there’s time before the Convention in August, I believe it’s wholly appropriate taking stock and having conversations in the White House as to whether staying the course is the best way to defeat Trump vs. allowing for a contested Convention aimed at passing the torch, in November, to the next generation.
If the inability to speak extemporaneously is a concern for re-election, it ought to be now also. I too would like an explanation. And Biden needs to reassure by doing some extensive interviews, not prompter -assisted speeches.
It is so late.... do his close confidants not see what danger we're in? I'd very much like to hear what the international communities have to say. Macron et al we're with him in meetings just a few weeks ago.
ther to vote or not want to know who actually is making the decisions in the Biden Presidency. they say they deserve to know before he gets their vote.
Where have these people been the past 3.75 years? In la la land. It is sad that so many people are so poorly informed that they used the debate to inform themselves. They should be reading and finding some worthy news sources.
I think the Bidens need to tell us what the hell happened on that stage. Honestly. And how they will not let it happen again. I think the country now fears they are gaslighting us as well. But I also think that the Alternative is SO deadly that, as one Republican voter said post-debate "I'd vote for a corpse over Trump." And another said "I'd vote for Biden's brain in a bottle over Trump." If that is the only way to win this election, then I'm willing to shout that from the housetops. Democrats have never been ruthless enough to win over ruthless opposition; now is the last chance to try.
Suzc, I maintain that Biden needs to show through unscripted events that last Thursday’s meandering debate performance was an outlier. That said, if it ends up that Biden is the nominee out of the August Convention, then everyone who cares about our democracy has to do everything they can to help Biden defeat Trump.
I maintain you should listen to people other than those who are looking for click bait. Because you know what? Biden has a job to do......he runs a country. He had done it extremely well. Good thing you weren't at the Battle of the Bulge, Valley Forge, Manassas, because they were disasters for the US.....with your attitude and the click bait mongers, y'all would have wanted the US to cut and run. One fucking debate does not a political campaign make......got that. Quit with the unscripted manure. EVERY PRESIDENT USES SCRIPTING. Biden is was not scripted when he met supporters after the debate well after midnight.....no script. Got that no script. No script when he was on the picket line. Went off script at the state of the Union........stop being a shill for the click bait wahoos who think they control the narrative - and with your help and others chirping the same nonsense? They are.
What if what happened on stage was that an old man showed he was starting to lose it? You can't just say it was one night because the subtext of the entire event was whether Biden would show himself strong and vigorous or the old guy losing it that people fear he is becoming because of his age. How can they keep it from happening again? It will happen again because he in fact is an old man. I am exactly one month and five days older than Biden. I'm pretty lucid I think (still get letters in the NYTimes). But I'm not confident I'll be lucid in four years. When Joe and I will be 86. Further comments of mine on Joe's outrageous decision to run here: https://mitchellzimmerman.substack.com/p/brief-rant-on-biden-why-come-back.
Here's my point: If Joe wins, there is time to assess when he should retire from the fray. And there are ways to do it like Art. 25. If Joe loses, we all lose....we lose everything, not just everything we hold dear but everything.
I may not be confident in what he will be like in four years but I do not care. As one former Republican said Thurs night, "I'll vote for Biden's corpse over Trump"! THAT is the stakes! The country and the world and my family all need for Trump to be defeated in November. And it's too late to change horses midstream as we're 10 weeks from early voting.
Biden's team let him down and let us all down. Heads should roll. The rest of us should make sure Biden is reelected.
Is everyone here a millennial or younger? Do you know no people older than 50? I have a 90-year old mom who lives around people in their mid-90s who are fit as a fiddle mentally and physically. My mom's best friend from school lives near me. Then there are people who are old. The stereotyping on age, led by an ignorant press filled with people to young to understand age who clearly didn't major in human biology. Age is a number, aging is biology and affects different people differently. I happen to currently know about 20 people in their 90s thanks to my mom and my life. I also have a man working on my house who is 85. He is a bit stooped, but is the best worker, who does excellent work. When he makes a wall it is perfect, or installs a light, or does electrical work. I am absolutely sickened by the hatred, ignorance and misunderstanding of age. If Biden were 35 and he was ill, no one would be calling for him to resign from a speech. Trump said fascist things and is a convicted rapist, and fraudster, nearly as old as Biden, less fit and not a word is said about either his age, his criminality or his fascism and inability to follow the constitution as begging for him to step down. He is not even legally allowed to be a candidate in many states based on his actions, but we have taken an evil despot and elevated him and every word against Biden just elevates Trump. Why would anyone in their right mind elevate Trump.
Low bar indeed. Biden did fire back on occasion. But he succumbed to the gish gallop fully. I cannot help but imagine what a Newsome or a Klobuchar or a Buttigieg could have done. Instead we got the deer in the headlights stare. Biden has to demonstrate his mental acumen for all to see, ASAP. And if he will not or cannot, we have to act boldly wihtout a moment to lose.
Boldly four months from election day means ALL IN for BIDEN. There is no time to change horses midstream and it is never a good, and has never been a successful, plan.
Sensing you are being heard. God I hope so. I sense the opposite. This November is going to be a test of the soul and compassion of the American people. A test of the rationality of the American people. And a test of the intelligence of the American people. We have failed that test before.
(From my book, "Donald's Vanity Tantrums" published in 2020. I guess I was ahead of my time.)
A Fireside Chat
President Franklin Delano Roosevelt began a series of informal radio chats to the American public during a turbulent time in the 1930s. The radio back then was to communicating as Twitter is today. Here is an excerpt:
“My fellow Americans, it is whispered by some that only by abandoning our freedom, our ideals, our way of life, can we rebuild our defenses adequately, can we match the strength of the aggressors. …I do not share these fears.”
Trump demands a quaint, televised, fireside chat to compete with FDR. Here is a sneak preview:
“My friends, Hillary Clinton will never see the inside of the White House again as long as I live.
“You people love me so much that I know you want to keep me as your president for life. The Constitution now allows this extended appointment of the executive branch. Our blessed homeland needs me to lead it. I have authorized The Enabling Act, borrowed from German Chancellor Adolf Hitler’s proposal to restrict powers of the Reichstag in 1933. His SS troops made legislators give up their civil liberties and transfer state powers to the Reich government. I’m pleased to tell you that the Democrats will sign away their legislative powers while my ICE agents surround the House of Representatives. I have the power to dissolve Congress and allow my Cabinet to pass much needed laws to Make America Great Again. And I pledge to you that all fake impeachment activity to convict me has ended.
“I also pledge to you that we will root out the communists, Marxists, fascists, and the radical left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country. And we will remove all undocumented immigrants that are poisoning the blood of our country. And we will remove the portrait of African-born Barack Hussein Obama from the White House wall.
“My first act tomorrow will be to have House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Shiftless Adam Schiff picked up for questioning to ascertain their patriotism for the United States.
“I know I’ve been accused of a quid pro quo with Ukraine. There is nothing wrong with finding the truth about liars and cheats like Slow Joe Biden. And there’s nothing wrong asking a nation to help with uncovering wrongdoing by a corrupt man. As your President for Life, I will always tell you the truth. When I make a promise to you, I keep it.
“This concludes the first of my fireside chats. I can’t wait to tell you what I have in store for other scum Trump haters.”
It was either a reporter or same staff member that said the other day that President Biden is excellent in the WH and governing, it is only when he is in public that he fumbles. All I need to know and it shows, is that he is running the government well.
If the judiciary has a “rule” that if their spouses are involved in the particulars of a case coming before them, the judges must recuse themselves, could there be an appeal based on that? I know recusal is voluntary, but this is egregious abuse of privilege.
Jan, what we had in the debate is another failure to recognize Donald Trump for who he is, a tyrant with no boundaries. Most sadly, the “NonSupreme Court of the United States” confirmed that he has every right to be just such a villain.
Yet cannot Congress still impeach a president? I think this says no and if correct, then the only relief is to build a super majority and nominate 3 additional jurists. And the only conceivable way to achieve this is to cater to the masses to achieve this. And this implies moving to the political center and else wise. It means building a wall if necessary. It means outfoxing the MAGAs at every turn until we build out our expanded political tent.
Will we and can we? For all intents and purposes, no. The plain and simple is we will need to live with our new King — or Queen. The first act of our new King Biden should be to initiate Seal Team Six to clandestinely dispatch Trump and his sociopaths ASAP. And here I’m suggesting that this monstrosity of political freakdom be taken for a very nutritious lunch at Kuntucky Fried Chicken.
The alternative technique for the gish gallop ( and having spent a career in sales, I cannot imagine it is a useful technique, since I was superb at what I did and never ever lied to my customers) is to calmly walk over and kick your opponent in the nuts and say "NOW shut up for a while".
It might be taught to timeshare sales people but they are fraudsters too. It was never taught to me.
Since 1215, with the sealing of Magna Carta by King John, the principle was established that the king was not above, but *subject* to, the law. This was revolutionary. The influence of Magna Carta is evident in the foundational principles of American constitutional law, including several state constitutions.
Now, 809 years later, the imperial Supreme Court turned this on its head. To me, the biggest takeaway from this horrendous ruling is that this principle was completely disregarded by the court.
Trump refused to debate Republican challengers. Biden had, I believe, nothing to gain by "debating" Trump, and should have told him, as President, sorry, buddy, you had your chance.
Part of this issue is what masquerades as "debate" nowadays; another part, and perhaps the most dangerous, is that tens of millions of U.S. citizens seem to think that Trump is a valid candidate/human being, and that thousands of local, state, and federal elected officials are afraid of him.
My fantasy (unfortunately, it's a fantasy in the U.S.) is that every eligible voter in the U.S. registers. And votes. If that were to happen, Trump cannot win.
If you think the Gish Gallop was the essence of Biden's problem, you're blinding yourself to what everyone saw. He not only failed to respond effectively to Trump's lies. He was incoherent in much of what he said, over a prolonged period of time. And blaming the team seems evasive. He was prepared for many days, and didn't give the responses he rehearsed. Or anything coherent on key topics that he's spoken about before. What happened is that he appeared he had a period of diminished focus and concentration. And it went on for 90 minutes.
Calling it a bad night ignores the fact that for most voters, he answered the question they have -- has his age weakened him? -- and the answer was damaging. His presentation was not that of a debater out of his depth in debate. It was an old man starting to lose it.
In any event, what is preposterous about Biden's decision to run is that he and his wife and enablers have ignored the obvious, unanswerable concern regarding an 81 year old candidate: even if he's functional now, how can you feel confident he'll be fully functional in four years when he is 86? I'm one month older than Biden. I can't say I'm confident I'll be fully functional when I'm 85 or 86. He never should have run. If what we saw meant nothing, at best it still reminds us -- everyone -- that he could be like that half the time when he's 85.
Maybe it's time for you to think long and hard about what you wrote. You seem to have bought the MAGA thinking hook ,line, and sinker. No one cares if you are functional or not at 81. Biden is and will continue to be. That's the point. At 93. Warren Buffet is sane and functional, but, then no one is asking him to play silly games like debating a raving lunatic. How about Rupert Murdoch? He still holds the reins of the corporation and spews lies across three major countries.....no one talks about that....in fact, it is his empire that is leading this charge and you have become one of the messengers. He thanks you.
A close friend of mine died six weeks shy of his 108th birthday, during the pandemic. He was an active lawyer into his 80s, and had an office at the major firm where he spent his career until his death, though once he passed the age of 100, he didn't use it much.
Only in his 90s did he need a pacemaker. He was sharp as a tack mentally up to the end, and had the memory of an elephant, as they say. I asked him at his 100th birthday dinner party (one of many dinners that week) if he considered Citizens United to be the worst SCOTUS ruling of all time, and he quickly responded, "No, the Dred Scott decision was" and continued to elaborate upon it. Everyone at the table - many lawyers - so enjoyed his remarks.
I would dearly like to consult him - with his long view - about what's happened with SCOTUS in the past two terms. I believe he would be very unhappy, and concerned, and he'd have a savvy, wise opinion.
If I thought there was zero chance of Biden being replaced, I wouldn't be writing publicly about it.
The fact that some people are entirely functional into very old age doesn't prove that everyone will be. As for the MAGA lords, even a broken clock tells the right time twice a day. I'm not inclined to ignore disturbing realities because the other side also notices them.
Questioning whether he should have run again or not is a futile exercise. He *is* running, and we need to keep watching his back. He's cogent now, coming off one bad night. Look at what this guy – who some people thought was too old to run in 2020 – has accomplished in 3 1/2 years. It's remarkable. He'll be fine after we reelect him.
Trump is not anywhere near to any kind of qualified person to sit as president - for a day. Remember the reaction to his bullying internationally? I certainly do. The UN delegates laughed at him openly. Trump didn’t have a clue why.
This is who you want representing your country ? I’d suggest Never Again for that idea.
Basically a full time job, for 90 minutes, watching an 8 year old entertain himself. Torture. Pure torture. Where’s my ball and baseball glove? Nothing here for me.
Biden doesn’t live with trump day to day. He forgets what a consistent idiot he is. Listening to him lie about his family, his achievements, claiming some as his own, the stupefying rambling of nonsense would put me in such a rage I’d be speechless watch the ‘moderators’ for timing,
Health is an issue at any age. Trump is cognitively impaired. Anyone who has actually listened to or read his rambling tirades and nonsensical rallies knows he's out of it, despite his youthful 78 years. In terms of health, mental or physical, it seems that great health isn't necessary to be a great president. FDR and JFK are examples. Fortunately for them both, they weren't followed around by media hucksters, or subjected to the weird so-called debate format, with zero fact-checking.
Yes, I know that. However, you seemed to provide a word-for-word citation and it’s generally appropriate to cite or give credit to the primary or secondary author.
@ Joyce: "We each have the opportunity to join Justice Sotomayor in dissenting when we vote in November." @Katherine: "Joyce, we just have to get Biden elected."
We' have the capacity to overwhelm them at the ballot box. Millions of unregistered folk trend heavily Democratic. Register them to save democracy. Gen Z can outnumber them.
This is why I have been so upset about the press attacking Biden the way they did, hand in hand with this court, they are trying to bring us back to days of monarchy. I think that Biden should be pointing this out in his ads. We had a revolution to get rid of having a King, why should we let the most craven of people (Trump, Alito, Thomas, Roberts, Coney-Barrett, Kavanaugh, Gorsuch) have that role?
And that observation has always puzzled me. The Royals don’t seem capable of more than cutting ribbons and going on Holiday. Many of their ancestors were abysmal human beings. If you are going to adore someone, how about the team that built the James Webb space telescope? Attraction to status for status sake seems curious.
True. I did just read where what the Royals have been for centuries now, illegitimate heirs, and that the rightful descent today is an Australian named Michael Hastings. He is a direct descendant of Margaret I , a Plantagenet. Very interesting and apparently traced from blood lines and family trees.
Nothing happened to him. The press manipulated the people and has been calling for him to step down. Our press is largely oligarchically owned by people who want to keep their taxes low, and who have such big egos they do not think that Hitler can happen to them here in the USA. Well, Hitler is just an example of what tyranny looks like, but Trump will be in a more powerful tyranny and has just as sweeping an agenda. Biden has only begun to undo the damage Ronald Reagan did to make the USA an illiberal democracy. No one else has even taken this on. Dems and Republicans have just carried on. Biden is a disrupter, turning the government from something that supports the wealthy only, to a government for the people. Putting us back into play with the other wealthy nations of the world who take care of their people. Trump wanted Norwegians to come here, but why would they when they are well taken care of in their own country.
Probably the cold medicine plus the avalanche of lies. I’m pretty good on my feet and don’t have a cold but doubt I could have withstood the overwhelming bullying mendacity of trump either (in a fit of pique, neither trump’s name nor that of robert’s supreme court will be capitalized)
It seems to me that he and his doctors would have had better sense than to take something like Benadryl. Maybe a something with caffeine in it. I can’t really accept this as an explanation. My heart was breaking as I watched him.
Yes it would seem dumb, and why not offer further information if it was that simple? He did improve a good bit the second half but.... it could be a combination of things. For some reason I feel more hesitant to have a different candidate after this unbelievable decision. It's all hard but we know what we have to do - flip the House and keep the blue.
His "cold," miraculously disappeared the next day and he was vigorous and sharp. He just had a bad night, which was unfortunate due to the timing. I think all of our hearts sank that night, but he's bounced back, so we need to keep our focus and get him reelected. He's been a wonderful president and will continue to be. Go Joe!
Thank you, Susan. I was talking with some nurse friends yesterday, and they had come up with the same conclusion and were wondering why no one was talking about it. So glad to see this article in Newsweek, which I hope will be seen by many. It makes total sense to me.
Very much so. I saw part of something on the news last night (maybe CBS?) where Biden told a fundraiser group that it probably wasn't a great idea to have had back to back overseas trips before the debate. Now, that would be actually before his prep week, but it would definitely explain what I also read about how he never started prep meetings till 11 am that week, etc. You certainly don't have to be 81 to need time getting over jet lag!!
I do wish Biden would recognize the American people probably value transparency more than most else, especially in a public servant. His honesty is his super power, especially against Trump, so the longer he goes without *publicly* confirming or elaborating on simple mitigating factors, the more concerning for me. Lichtman's 13 factors convince me he's still the best bet at this point though.
I’ve been on the fence since the debate, waiting to be reassured. I thought he could beat Trump before the debate but I don’t see how he can now. I’ll probably be struck by lighting for saying it, but it may be time to make a change and energize the party. This article made me feel a little better about that: https://apple.news/ADKWzC2QBTMCQ-eDm2KCyxg
Above is the acknowledgement of no cold medication.
When I get a chance I'll find the reference i was thinking of it was something like "no, I didn't have a cold, I was just really tired all of a sudden, I should probably not have been flying around so much". Something like that - I am paraphrasing, I'll get the exact quote....
He should have kept his eyes on the cameras and listened. and then, "Folks, I hope you and the media are fact checking everything Trump just said. It was all lies. Now, I believe the question was....." and then answered the questions! There was no hope of responding to or rebutting that torrent of words.
Old man. Late at night. Half sick (possibly medicated). EXHAUSTED. Gish galloped. Trying to answer the questions. His debate team has a lot to answer for! But now everyone is focused on whether he is sane instead of how we beat tyranny. I don't think anyone in that setting would have performed well.
Trump's behaviour was entirely predictable. If Biden wasn't ready for a torrent of lies and misdirection, then gosh, that is almost worse than having a blank stare.
Right? I mean, the change in him was intense. Awful during the debate and then fine at the waffle house, fine the next day and this is at all times of the day/night. I'm not saying there aren't issues with him, probably there are, but what happened on that debate stage?
That GISH technique is just too much for anyone. Trump is bully of the worst type. Remember the other Republicans trying for the nomination and how trump did the same to them all. They all just couldn't respond to all the lies and hate tactics. Trump is a monster of first degree!!
Thank you, that's true. They had multiple debates, they were all accustomed to them, there were more of them than the atrocious jackass, but they all fell to his barrage of bullshit.
An elderly person can easily get distracted if he allows it. Recall the Mitch freeze. The trick is to not be led astray and focus on the mock debates that should have given Biden the direction to not directly respond to questions asked but lash out at Trump with every question with a statement of his own.
If it means anything, I has a similar episode in 1993 when I was only 49. I am susceptible to jet lag. I flew from Miami to San Francisco for a presentation. I blanked out - was hospitalized. It was mostly due to dehydration.
Check out this podcast that addresses the idea of Biden taking a cold medication that may have affected his performance. Start at minute 11:36, or so, to hear the explanation.
You mean like he had a cold? Have you had a cold recently? Knocks one down. Also as very important people have said, Biden was over coached and not allowed to rest. Other than that, he was fine and I believe it
If Biden had a cold, then his team would have announced (or at least leaked it) before the event. There was no announcement. So he didn't have a cold. So he wasn't on cough medication. So it was something else. That chain of thought is depressing, but it exactly matches up with Biden being fine and feisty before and after the event. Also Jill Biden made no mention of him having a cold, she said he was just off form.
Sabrina, I have thought long and hard about that very question. My cheeky answer is that Trump jabbed him in the butt with a drug backstage, having telegraphed his desire to do so (and possibly black magic, as he has never had a consequence ever). My serious answer is a combination of things: The "Gish gallop gaslighting" of Trump, against a half-sick, exhausted, overprepared, 81 year old man, late at night after a long day, trying to follow the CNN "debate" rules. I blame his debate team and CNN. Heads should roll for that fiasco. But Joe is ultimately the one to decide and he should explain to us why he performed so poorly. I'm willing to take "sick, exhausted, Gish gallop"; because the alternative is far too unacceptable 10 weeks before early voting.
Absolutely right on with your assessment. I would also add that his team played this card the wrong way thinking in ANYWAY that there would be a “debate”. He didn’t need to be in that position in the first place. They should have never overflowed him with facts and helped coach him by saying SLOW DOWN. BE YOURSELF, you’ve got this. With the stutter, cold, medicine, etc…gaslighting…he had a bad night and is surrounded by good to great people. Trump is evil…getting worse, surrounded by evil, bad people.
The only thing that can save our country is a certainty that trump is not elected.
Unless he tells us otherwise, best guess would be cold meds plus, as a stutterer, there are techniques used to help the speaker overcome stuttering. The President got pulled out of his planned hesitations by the two minute format. But if no one is talking, who knows for sure?
I found one of Jill's comment to be revealing. She thought completely reasonable to tell a crowd: "Joe just told me he just didn't know what happened to him". As if that makes it reasonable. If his team wants to invent a cold then they should stick to the plan. It's difficult to not believe he's had more than one of these "events". Indeed, at the Kimmel/Obama/Biden event a few days ago you could see hints of that same vacant stare.
It is being said that Biden’s “slow,” halting responses were due to a cold, exacerbated by a full, exhaustive Presidential schedule (two back-to-back European trips!) followed by intense “debate coaching.”
All true.
But what I saw on that stage was Biden being AGHAST at Trump’s tirade, yet, unfortunately, his facial EXPRESSION - eyes staring, jaw dropped and his mouth agape — instead of telegraphing, “WTF?,” sadly looked like a face you would see on a stoke victim. I found myself yelling at the TV, “close your mouth!!”
Then when he tried to respond, using his few allotted minutes, he didn’t know which lie to “rebut” first. Consequently he appeared confused and unprepared and his halting speech just added to the poor picture.
The next day when I read Heather Cox Richardson’s Substack explaining Gish Gallop I wept.
I had to politely dress down a Millennial colleague yesterday about immature concerned babble about Biden being too old and thats her main hesitation. I told her just as you write we elect an administration, it isnt just about a man. And that the argument about Biden’s age not only is short-sighted, it is also veiled or unconscious sexism because if (write in a straight white man politician’s name) were VP people wouldnt be talking about his age. She majored in political science and admitted she’d been ignoring the political landscape these days as its depressing. You think?? Hell yeah and it’ll be more depressing if the Millennials distract themselves whining about Boomers and dont vote! I think and I hope I scared her (and gave her ideas) to shift into action.
There is a simple way out of this horror. If President Biden gives VP Harris a lifelong position as an appellate judge and names Gov. Newsom his running mate, we will win 2024, 2028, 2032...
No humiliation for Biden and all three are happy. Why not?
Katherine, though I haven't seen Pres. Biden in person, I have seen him on tv in a number of situations and thought that he seemed on top of things, though obviously he tires more easily than he did when he was younger. Me, too. I'm two years younger than he is, and I believe he's in better physical shape -- and much wiser and intelligent on political issues than I. I agree with all you have said here.
I am MOST thankful for your words that you have seen him in person. (I am furious with CNN, furious with his debate team, and not all that happy with his wife who let him go onstage in that condition and has failed to come out and tell America what was wrong with him in that 90 minutes--because something was wrong, but he seemed fine to me both before and after, so I'm leaning toward the Dark Arts or Trump jabbing him with a drug in the butt as Trump always projects what he's about to do.) I THINK AMERICA NEEDS IN-PERSON VERIFICATION from people not on his staff.
I agree. We need him, but with media throwing $pit on him every chance they get thinking it is news, they cause so much harm to all of us too. Their short sided behavior is no different than the animal with the cigarette in its mouth! People see it often enough, it becomes.the norm? We know it's deadly harm. If media or anyone else succeeds in running Biden off and another steps in, it will divide the party resulting in the demise of life as we know it here and globally! Biden needs to stay!! Polls can go jump! I can't watch "news" and want to throw something at the tv.
The only remedy is for Congress to pass an amendment nullifying the court' ruling. I won't hold my breath even though my Congressman just introduced this amendment.
Intermittent mental acuity and physical capacity are not enough. The American people have long stated their concern with Biden's age and diminiution and the Democratic establishment bears responsibility for ignoring this real and legitimate concern. At a minimum there should have been a Plan B, ready if the need to abort the Biden candicacy became apparent. I have no fealty to Biden and his legacy. He has been a good president but it does the future of our democracy no favors to ignore that he is no longer able to campaign effectively let alone rule for another 4 years
More have identified Trump’s maniacal derangement. My fealty to a democracy has waned we moved to South America… where at least the tumult is in Spanish and above our comprehension… ignorance is bliss
With this Court, one can possibly argue - despite Gorsuch's "one for the ages" claim - that this decision, and Roberts' own opinion for the majority, was aimed at and tailored for tRump in particular, and that a *Republican* AG could indict a former Dem president for "criminal actions" that upon appeal to this Court, would fail the *official acts* criteria and be dumped into the prosecutable "unofficial acts" bucket. I mean, tRump and cohorts have for months talked about prosecuting Joe Biden for his "corrupt and criminal behavior", and who among us would gainsay SCOTUS greenlighting these prospective actions by the same tortuous logic?
A roadmap for authoritarian, anti-constitutional rule, folks, it's there in black and white.
All I can think of is Project 2025. This is part of the plan. But if these rubes on our former “supreme” court think they’re going to be part of the elite, think again. They are not.
There is a window that a couple of issues that may remain in the DC case. Chukan has to hold suppression hearings, but it is possible that the interference with the electoral college counts may remain. DOJ probably has to withdraw everything else.
IMHO Garland made seral tactical miscalculations -- charged Trump with the wrong statutes. I would have prosecuted the henchmen first and brought cases against Citizen Trump -- when immunity does not apply. He left the presidency Jan 21, 2021. The statute of limitations has not run on insurrection.
18 USC §2383. Rebellion or insurrection. Probably 5 years.
Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
To this day, Citizen Trump is giving aid and comfort to insurrectionists who have been convicted.
I don't know about anyone else, but this motivates me to do MORE, donate more of my time and money.
Bless your heart, Daniel. I am spent, exhausted, disappointed, wondering why I have always supported and defended the Constitution of the United States in the Navy and in my career in the courts and beyond. I will recover I hope, but at this point it all feels like a charade, and my naïveté stuns me. The clown closed down the circus.
Maybe it was Rebecca Skolnit who shared a story that when you are singing in a chorus, you get to take a breath while the rest of the chorus continues to carry the note.
Thank you, Ellie, for that visual. It is especially meaningful because I have sung in many choirs, and singing is something that gives me joy. I will sing.🥰🇺🇸🎶
Reality has shifted, that's for sure. Breathe, spend a lot of time with people you love doing things you enjoy. It's a long, protracted battle with no guarantee of victory, but we are many and our cause is just. Ellie Kona said it well.
Daniel, Your statute looks perfect. If he had been charged with this, and we didn’t have a supreme court throwing insane barriers at any attempt to call trump a criminal, then he wouldn’t of been allowed to hold any public office. Oh my! Thanks for the idea.
Again, Biden needs to exercise his new unwelcome powers and enlist the DOJ in arresting and prosecuting these "justices" for lying in their confirmation hearings, tax fraud and taking bribes. They aren't immune but he is.
That would disable Thomas, Alito and Kavenaugh a good start.
Sounds like his job description. But first investigate Ginni and Clarence and Samuel Alito and his wife. Rather than interfere with the executive branch… it will make it work
A Coup D'etat by any other name is still a Coup D'etat and should be treated as such. If Joe Biden won't do it then he should stand aside and let Kamala do it. And she would deal with it without all those 70's constraints Joe has.
Is Biden too much of a gentleman to go down that slippery slope? And I’m not saying it’s a good idea in general. Perhaps Joe should enlarge the Supreme Court during this term in an attempt to balance out Trump’s cronies on the bench? It’s been done before, and so won’t be an issue - one district, one justice. Sounds like a necessary step.
I apologize if this is something I should already know, but frankly I’m so sick and tired of all of this my brain is just like MEH. But here is my question - this should have no impact on the Mar a Lago documents case, no? Because he was NO LONGER PRESIDENT when he pulled all of those shenanigans?? So can we please just get rid of that poor excuse for a judge Loos Cannon and get this the heck over with?
It is a reasonable conclusion BUT this undeserved so-called “court of law” might even say that he took the documents when he WAS President! An official act by a sitting President. Therefore prosecuting him for refusing to return them violates his official duties. Crazy no? But they don’t care as long as they protect their boy! Shouldn’t surprise us! This majority is a group of criminal defenders.
It sure feels like Thomas has been coaching Cannon behind the scenes. What’s to stop him from talking to her regularly to give her advice on how to obstruct?
Ok, doc. Since you're an attorney and my brain is as MEH as yours at least ... can disbarment proceedings be brought against Supreme Court "Justices"? And if so, can someone without a law license sit on the Supreme Court? I know it's a dumb question, but it's been a very, very stupid day. And of course these "justices" would simply sue against the loss of their law licenses, and this would be taken to the highest (lowest) court and nullified.
A more serious question is what we as citizens can do to not cooperate with unconstitutional rulings made by the so-called guardians of the Constitution. The Founders determined that this country would not be ruled by a king. Yes, we can vote Biden into a next term of office, and this Court could nullify that. But we can do mass demonstrations, go on national strike. Blue state governors could say that law does not apply here. I'm reaching, but the Supreme Court just rebelled against the Constitution. How can that be valid?
SCOTUS began taking to itself powers not given it in the Constitution back in Marbury v Madison. This is just the logical result of Mitch cramming, unlawfully imho, three unfit judges onto the court (or two unfit and one illegitimate). Mitch unleashed Alito and Thomas. The Constitution says SCOTUS serves for life absent "bad behavior" but only Congress can address what bad behavior IS. There have been judges removed and one justice impeached but not convicted (I think).
I'm with King Joe arresting a few of them for corruption and bad behavior. I'm also for expanding the court not just to water down the GOP but to handle a few more cases (they get 8000 a year brought and take only a few hundred). I think King Joe can now also remove Trump. Sadly King Joe is a good man and not a madman and not ruthless enough. But we can wish for a few minutes before getting back to work.
I, unfortunately, don’t believe voting is the answer to this travesty. The “supremes” are untouchable. And November is too far away to take chances with what could happen between now and then.
One thing I keep thinking about is the need to make sure the House is voted Democrat this fall. It’s so we don’t have Johnson as Speaker if Biden would win, and became unable to continue as President then VP Harris would become President and the Speaker would become VP. I’m thinking too much!!
Unfortunately voting is the only thing we have now. The only thing that will rein in the Supreme Court and by proxy whatever president they choose to install, is this next election and getting a majority in Congress that will support President Biden to make the changes needed by passing legislation that will stop these things from happening. Nothing is more important now in my opinion then protecting democracy and pulling back the power that these justices have given themselves and their preferred president. Because nothing else will matter if we don't do that. I've never been a big fan of packing the court, but I think it's really the only way to do it this time and we can only do it with a Congress that will support President Biden.
Problem is if Jack forces her recusal, her Federalist Society lawyers will fight the decision all the way to the Supreme Court, which will then declare her to be perfectly fine to hear the case - and entitled to some kind of a 🎖️ - and I’ll probably be deceased before the purloined classified documents case ever gets to a final decision.
And now that you mention it, I think Clarence Thomas might have some kind of authority in the 11th circuit. So he would be the one to declare Cannon good to go. Thank you for pointing this out.
I also found the case pretty thick. As I understand the logic of the decision, the six right-wingers give great weight to the supposed need to allow the president to be unrestrained in the exercise of power and zero weight to the risk that a president would abuse the extraordinary power of the presidency. Zero weight notwithstanding that the case before the court not only illustrated the risks of a royal presidency, but did so in a context in which the court could have taken judicial notice that the basis of Trump's actions were all lies. That is, they knew that 60 cases had found (essentially) that there was no stolen election.
If we follow history at all, we come to the opposite conclusion from the six right-wingers: The Framers of the Constitution were concerned that the president should NOT have the same above-the-law prerogatives of a king, and anticipated that he would be restrained. That's what the Federalist Papers emphasized with regard to the presidency.
AS I UNDERSTAND CORE CONSTITUTIONAL POWERS AND IMMUNITY CONCEPT: Do I have this right, Joyce? One example: The president is commander in chief, so what he does with the military is within the exercise of his core constitutional powers. The Court "therefore" holds he has absolute and complete immunity from liability for crimes committed in connection with such powers. So he could indeed order a SEAL team to assassinate a political adversary and have absolute immunity for doing so. Again, no mind that Trump has demonstrated his actual contempt for our democratic constitutional framework, and might well do such a thing. Literally.
We keep saying this is like a king or a royal presidency. But it may be better to think of it as fascism: the glorification of The Leader, whose will is all that matters.
The one who wanted to by Greenland in exchange for Puerto Rico. Seriously. Wouldn’t this make all executive orders part of his official duties and not subject to Court’s review. Biden should outlaw guns and establish collection teams to round them all up (like trumps deportation force), make abortion the rule of the land; equal rights, pay and standing for all; student loan forgiveness; sell the opportunity to naming rights for the Supreme Court Building or just change it to the Obama Hall of Justice, speaking of the Supreme’s… stack the Court now… if EXECUTIVE ORDERS ARE OART OF THE TWILIGHT AREA, THERE IS PRESUMED IMMUNITY IF IT PARTLY FALLS IN PART OF THE PRESIDENT’s JOB. YEAH SUPREME COURT!
Unfortunately, what you suggest ignores the separation of powers. The president doesn't have the power to usurp Congress's powers. Similarly, the courts can't contradict Congress's laws as long as they're constitutional. It seems out only way forward is to get a super majority in the Senate, win back the house, and reelect Biden.
But this court says congress can't review his actions if they are within his executive authority . Where is the separation of powers here? So separate the Congress must be blind?
Jen, it's not clear to me that you're commenting on my post. If you're not, you might want to reposition it accordingly. If you're response is indeed to my post, I don't quite see how it applies.
But let me try to respond: One consistent pattern in the SC's rulings is that they don't second guess Congress when Congress was explicit when passing a law. The executive can't override Congressional laws. Congress can't tell the courts what to do. If Biden were to sign executive orders to do whatever "Mike in the Desert" wrote, he'd be usurping Congress's powers beyond what the constitution days are his powers. Republicans would challenge those actions in courts and likely win.
Of course it does, but so does the ruling. Of course the law says Congress makes laws. But in the course of his role as President, one makes executive orders… and the ruling says even if the president breaks laws intentionally… if doing so even in part of his duties … he is presumably immune
Hello Joyce, here is an excerpt from your analysis. My question follows.
"The Court says there is a presumption that immunity applies here, unless the government can show that a prosecution won’t impair the president’s performance of his official functions."
Question: since prosecution in all cases brought against Trump are after he has left his official position as president, how can that prosecution impair his performance of official functions?
Thanks for helping us unpack and understand this opinion.
Jill, I was about to include the exact question you posed with the questions I asked. I think the idea is that if a president could be indicted and prosecuted after he leaves office she would hesitate to act with determination and vigor when making his governing decisions and putting them into action. Thus, a potential criminal prosecution would "chill" a president's authority and power to act while president.
They don’t mention Trump but rather the Office of the President… all hypothetical in Trump’s case. In fact after loses in November nothing that is done will interfere with the office of the president
They weren't. He was still president on January 6 even though soon to leave office.
I wonder about the ability of the military to refuse his orders, and Milley and his colleagues had planned to do as they were greatly concerned he'd try to start a war with China.
Dumb question: why should a President need immunity from criminal prosecution for official acts? What kind of nation are we if a President is committing a criminal act in their official role as President? Wouldn't lack of immunity be an excellent check-and-balance at the top on a nation's conduct? It seems that there is an assumption underlying all of the SCOTUS majority's deep thinking on this subject: namely, that we are a rogue nation with criminal Presidents who need immunity. As with so much else that's happened since 2015, this opinion is a massive exercise in projection.
It didn't used to be a dumb question but since Trump, we have to worry. And if not Trump, what other MAGA asshole is going to come down the pike? The Presidency has been sullied for good.
Today the Supreme Cort made a mockery of the “Equal Justice Under Law” emblazoned on the front of their building. With the possible exception of Nixon absurdly declaring “If the President does it, it’s legal,” never before has any President insisted on absolute immunity. As much as he might have desired it, the twice impeached, convicted felon ex-President Trump was not a king. And, he has already told us that if re-elected, he would be “dictator on his first day.”
I know this ruling is for “official” acts but who decides that? What exactly is “presumptive immunity?” Remember this opinion was supposed to apply to Trump’s actions before and during January 6. How was inciting an insurrection an “official act?”
The Calvary isn’t coming. It’s up to us to insure Trump NEVER sees the inside of the White House again. Ever.
Unless we can take steps to alter the make-up of the court, a Biden win is somewhat a hollow victory. Yes, it keeps Trump from office but Biden as President does nothing to protect any long standing precedent that protects many of the rights we think of as ours to have and keep. Think Gay marriage, interracial marriage, right to contraception, Segregation (Brown v. Board of Education), Miranda, right to counsel, any sort of Trans rights, right to Social Sec benefits for same sex couples. Any and all rights we think are set in stone are now sitting on sand. A Biden victory is important but it will not save us if we do not do something about the make-up of the Supreme Court.
The answer is that we need to re-elect Biden and we need to elect majorities in both the house and the Senate that will strongly support him. Once he gets that. What he needs to do is the first order of business which is add justices to the Supreme Court so that we can right these wrongs. If we don't right the wrongs that the Supreme Court has passed, especially this immunity case, then nothing else will matter, nothing.
I agree. We must elect Strong majorities in both the House & Senate. We must eliminate the filibuster, as well. I’m just not sure it’s possible to do so. The path to a Senate majority is very precarious and not likely to happen. The path to a majority in the House is difficult due to Red state gerrymandering. Even given all that, I refuse to give up hope. I am working to get a Dems elected and I hope that this debacle wakes people up enough to get everyone working together to make it happen.
It’s not Biden’s fault. When we had the Presidency, the House and the Senate, senators Manchin and Sinema blocked these actions. Manchin’s a coal baron. Sinema ran as a progressive and must have been corrupted. They blocked changing the filibuster.
Frankly I'm tired of being told we're in this together. I don't need someone to lay out what SCOTUS did. It's everywhere. What we need are people with clout like Joyce, Rick Wilson, the Lincoln Project, the Bulwark, Morning Joe, Adam Kinzinger, Liz Cheney and probably forty other people to stand on the steps of the Supreme Court and have a press conference with broadcast networks pounding home the corruption of the SCOTUS and Trump. Be loud. Sound the alarm on a loud scale. But don't shrug and say we all have to vote. I effing know that. I don't need to subscribe to substacks that tell me what I already know or read Republican Never Trumpers talk about why Biden should step down. We're less than five months from the election. We have two choices Biden or Trump. I'll take the money I'm wasting on substacks and donate it to the Biden campaign. And if we pull it off maybe Democrats can change SCOTUS by adding justices or initiating term limits.
I have two questions: First, according to a YouTube video tonight by MeidasTouch Trump has already filed a motion to use this immunity ruling to overturn or vacate - I don’t think the video specified which - his criminal guilty conviction in the NY election interference case. It seems like a real stretch to me to call those even peripheral official acts as they had to do with his campaign and his business records but I welcome thoughts on this. I understand from various writings on this that immunity is one of the few things that can be appealed before a trial. I realize that trial is finished, although the appeals are not. Can he use this to delay the sentencing in July 11? The video is here: https://youtu.be/gRwZsi0hev8?si=-8qL-3Eovan53ggX
Second, if a president is charged with any crime that requires he stand trial or even be incarcerated, that would violate this part of this opinion:
“…dangers of intrusion on the authority and functions of the Executive Branch.”
I could argue that even an impeachment and senate trial would intrude upon his functioning, so does that mean he can’t even be impeached or tried for anything, even if it an unofficial act because any such case would take time away from being president?
As an Ohioan, I immediately recognize this ruling as highly gerrymandered - pretzel twisted to forestall almost any chance of any president being charged with any crime. So there.
The majority's core belief clearly is that a president must not be "bothered" with any pesky concerns about obeying the law as they do their job..... And certainly not about serving the needs of the unwashed masses of citizenry. I mean, this majority demonstrates how their *own* evolution beyond those outdated concepts of "public service" in office has made their job so. Damn. Much. Easier. Gotta love the convenience of those now formally recognized "gratuities" for a job well done! And yeah, they did that thenselves! Cute, right?!?! /MASSIVESARCFONT end
What can Biden do about this biased imitation of a court of last resort, Joyce? He has power of executive order. These people are capable of invalidating our election, whatever the margin, without blinking an eye- Biden must serve the American people by forcing them to be accountable the same way as lower courts and the other branches of government. He can't wait till the crisis arises. All that involves I don't know, but surely our laws and Constitution still must permit justice to be done- right? Surely we're not all alone in the void here? 🙏
"By forcing them" should be "by forcing SCOTUS" - I don't see the function to edit comment in the app, just started using it this week to access chat and that's weird....
I think the falsification of all of the records in the case took place during Trump's presidency, but it's hard for me to see the theory on which repaying a campaign expense and characterizing it as a business expense could possibly be anything but a private matter. But the Supreme Court could weigh in on the question of whether a president can be punished for criminal behavior during his presidency. Or after being elected. If he would be above the law for murder, he's just too important to suffer criminal penalties that would interfere with his reign.
At least some of the checks were signed from his office, so those are now presumptively innocent actions. Those checks were presented to jurors as being evidence of a conspiracy to interfere in the Clinton/Trump election. But that evidence is now tainted. Merchan may push back, but it sounds like a retrial to me. The only hope I see is that Merchan decides these issues should be picked up by on appeal, not pre-sentencing. Which would still allow some jail time between now and Trumps inaugauration.
Joyce, we just have to get Biden elected. We all know we deal with an administration, not just a President and Joe has a strong one. Frankly, I feel so anxious I had to take the evening off of work. I have seen Pres. Biden in person recently and he's been fine. He was fine before and after the debate. I'm really confused and concerned for our future.
Trump's portion of the debate is a common rhetorical device. It’s taught in sales seminars and seminaries. Billy Graham was the master. Trump is Cabo Timeshare Top Salesman good. He said his rallies were his debate prep, and they are purely an exercise in Gish Gallop*. Biden's preparation and game plan couldn’t have been any worse. He wanted a debate...he should have known that isn't what he'd get. His team let him down.
*Gish Gallop is a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don't know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them. It's a form of gas lighting.
The Gish Gallop can be responded to by choosing the weakest, dumbest, most ludicrous argument your opponent has presented and tear that argument to shreds (also known as the weak point rebuttal).
Yes. Team let him down, and it was not a debate. However, a debater does not a president make. Biden has successfully gotten an enormous amount done with an obstructive Republican party, particularly in the House, because he is a master at his own form of getting things done. We have been able to count on him to keep our government running and our country moving forward. I am glad I did not watch the "debate." Seems like it was too big a distraction. Still it should give plenty of fodder for ads for the rest of the campaign.
Agreed, a debater does not a president make. However, I rue the negativity that resulted. There was enough crap about his being too old, etc., etc., without the added undesirable remarks and commentary. I wish the Biden campaign were as visible as all the media attention on Trump.
Our media is not up to the task of being independent and democratic. We need to accept that and find alternative sources of information in the independent press. It is the media that turned Biden not doing well against a charismatic autocratic using a propaganda dissemination technique to debate, instead of debating against Biden, instead of against Trump the criminal. So we hope the media will be better prepared for the next debate, and hopefully Biden will be healthy then. He did do the job of getting his ideas and accomplishments out there, but CNN was not helpful. We should be angry that our media has capitulated to the demands of a fascist press, which is parroting the ideas of the far right. When history is examined, if we even get to have history taught any more, the American press will be analyzed for the problems that it poses being owned by filthy rich oligarchs who just want to ensure that their taxes are low.
Yes, no once trusted institution is failing our country more now than the media.
Yes, but the Supreme Court has failed our country with the ruling that WRONG is not, and will not, be WRONG.
Now that the media have to bend to advertisers, and the dollar is the only value Americans revere, we are lost. That's why I watch "Democracy Now" as well as MSNBC, and why I think our species is doomed. We--the fucking oligarchs--are destroying the planet for $$$$$$$$ and we are too STUPID to understand that we can't replace the planet once the air, water, and earth are fatally poisoned. As Stephen Hawking said, the two worst faults of our species are greed and stupidity. As I have said, the two rights most Americans value most are the right to be stupid and the right to be ignorant. I've spent a career as a philosophy professor trying to change that, with limited success.
Yes! I've turned them all off, except a few minutes a day with BBCAmerica to find out what in the hell is going on in the world. I read my news. We've been wronged by our media outlets, journalists and so-called experts. I've left messages at MSNBC's comment line a number of times telling them that their 24/7 coverage of "every little thing trump" is malpractice. No wonder many Americans have no idea what the Biden administration has done for us all. Where is Uncle Walter when we need him? At least in the 60s and most of the 70s we had NEWS, not entertainment.
Yes, Victoria, the media is not trusted too much or well, the ones we like are sort of trusted, and we keep going back to them for our news. Our Supreme Court is less trusted and less trustworthy. The conservative majority has proven over and over during the past 25 years or so that they are not for our Constitution, for our people, or for anything else but rich, white, pseudo-christian men and corporations that are mostly owned and operated by those rich, white, pseudo-christian men. It is our responsibility to get the word out that the Supreme Court's conservatives are working to take away our democracy. They don't care because they have jobs for life, so will do everything they can to promote Baby Donnie and his crew. It is unclear why except that they think Baby Donnie will keep letting them take bribes and gifts, and act against our country, just like the good little corrupt justices they are.
Yes, I totally agree.Everybody better do up the 4th of July right this Thursday because our putrid scotus is trying to make this one our last one to celebrate.
🎯 NAILED IT!
Meidas Touch Network, on Youtube, and podcasts. They also have a website.
Jan, I sure do wish our media were really some kind of fair, as they claim they are. I began noticing the media obsession with Trump first when he pulled out the BS about Obama's birth certificate. It was a total non-issue because having been born to an American citizen mother, he would be American. Then, there's having been born in Hawaii, a state since 2 years before he was born and a territory for longer than that. The media went crazy and demanded copies of his birth certificate and didn't really want to see it. They wanted the controversy, lie though it was. When Toddler-Trump rode the golden escalator, the media loved it and had to report heavily on it despite the fact that most of the people in attendance were paid to be there. The medias pumping up of Trump got him lots of notice and people starting to think he was someone they should care about and vote for. They believed the BS related to his reality TV show "The Apprentice." Trump has been either the first or second media story day after day for nearly the 9 years since he rode the escalator. That is insane, but for a while back in early 2016, I counted the days and in 2 months, I think it was March and April, Trump was the first or second story on NPR50 of the days. I had my students check on their local media or social media and they told me it was a lot, far more than Obama who was actually president and far far more than Clinton who was actually running for president and by then had nearly won the primaries. All they could say about her were the words Ben Gazi or something about her emails. That is disgusting especially since Trump had nothing honest to say, just a lot of blaming, insulting, and complaining that Obama hadn't done anything. Change the names and it is just like now. We cannot count on our media and that is very depressing, but also motivating (it's weird) and I know I have to do what I can to see that ignorant, uninformed, dictator wannabee, Toddler-Trump never gets into office of any kind again.
Hear, hear, Ruth!!!
Linda, I would submit that the core issue is whether Biden can think and speak extemporaneously, admittedly a low bar for a president, but one that Biden no longer can be relied on to clear. If last Thursday were just a bad night, Biden could reassure doubters by doing a bunch of interviews and unscripted town halls. Short of that, I fear the results this November were voters to conclude that neither he nor his campaign believes he can pull it off.
Barbara, we will need to agree to disagree. I feel that conflating the job of campaigning with the job of running the country is basically what the Supreme Court just did. I am not going to look at what skills are needed for a campaign, but let us hope that Biden's people guide him well and learn from this debate. I did not watch it. The speaking skills as a president he has done an excellent job on. He is respected by democratic leaders around the world, as well as keeping Putin at bay from NATO countries. This is huge! He is also respected in Congress so that he has been able to keep our government running despite the despotic obstructionism from the Republican party, many of whom I suspect will secretly vote for Biden, just for fear of Trump's destructiveness. Biden has raised a lot of money since that debate, has not lost any voters, just some voter's confidence. If I were to place my disappointment anywhere it would be at the media who has no business calling for him to resign, or suggesting that an excellent sitting president should get out of the race, while not even suggesting this once about Trump who is a criminal, insurrectionist, treasonous, and fascist! Why is that/ We are a democracy. His candidacy should be illegal. The fact that our press is having the priorities it is to sell their media is disgusting and they are looking more like Hungarian and Russian press than liberal democratic press. MSNBC blew it by not real time fact checking. If they cannot figure out how to do that, they are not fit to run a "Debate" between a democrat and an autocrat. Trump is a charismatic fascistic charlatan. Why is our press not up to the task of making clear to the people that they were manipulated in the so called debate to focusing on the WRONG THINGS? Please watch what this expert on fascists, fascist propaganda is saying. Prof. Ruth Ben-Ghiat. https://youtu.be/tX7lij4fETc?si=xV7-VtooRQJGX5WZ
Linda, he was on CNN, not MSNBC, and CNN was shameful. Also, the first post debate poll showed a 10% drop for Biden. Hopefully that is just a blip or a bad poll. Otherwise, I take your points and agree with them. A lot of mistakes were made, the worst of them by Biden's debate team. Biden tried very hard to follow the plan, exhausted, overprepared, half sick, in the face of Trump lies. Biden should just tell us that and move on.
I think you should hear what Prof. Ruth Ben-Ghiat has to say about it. It was the broadcasters fault that they did not real time fact check. I can show you a good example of this in Euro News. There is an Italian Broadcaster who recently interviewed German and Portuguese right wingers, and for every lie they told she had the refutal in writing. So, her audience experienced what they said, along with the refutals, as well as her analysis later on. Right in real time. This is imperative.
https://www.euronews.com/2024/05/31/will-the-far-right-win-big-in-the-eu-elections-a-focus-on-germany-and-portugal
So, it does not matter which station aired it, the point is that no one, not even the slick orators can fight this with normal debate style. You did not observe a debate. You observed a fascist expert "Gish Galloping." Please understand that. You are being manipulated by fascist propaganda. That includes the press telling you the biggest problem was Joe Bidens ineffective debating, not the Donald Trump is dangerous. Our press is woefully ill prepared to rise to the demands of reporting on this election. I do not agree with you on blaming Biden. And, he has admitted his weaknesses, without pointing out what a shitty job the station did of running it. Next time he should stay home if he is ill, and woozy from cold medication. How would that have gone over?
The longer this chatter goes on about Biden the harsher the opinions will be. Biden cannot ignore it or turn his back on the comments! He must address the people and stop listening to Jill and Hunter! Stand and face it, Mr. President!
Why was Biden exhausted, overprepared and half sick? Did he forget that he had a debate to get ready for?? Biden had one chance to save this country: go on stage and don't give any impression that you are age impaired. Instead he repeatedly froze. Mouth agape and staring blankly. Instead of Biden trying to memorize facts (that he should have already known) he should have asked his team to work with him on looking assertive, pretending to take notes while Trump was talking, better makeup, more sleep, golf,... well anything really. I agree his debate team should be fired. But Biden bears the responsibility for hiring them. My guess is that his immediate team is so used to him being doddery that they underestimated how much it comes a shock to the rest of us.
Suzc, YES! I think the debate team could have given him ways to respond to good intelligent questions, and then said , "Nevertheless, Joe, be yourself. You know this stuff. Remember what you have accomplished in your first term."
Don't forget dementia and sociopath in your descriptive… And personally, I can't see anything charismatic about trump.
But 30% of America sees him as a savior and 10% want more tax cuts. The news media then rakes in the profits because it's all so entertaining.
Linda, Considering we’re both committed to defeating Trump, and very much for the same reasons, rather than agreeing to disagree, I prefer to think we’re both working to preserve our democratic republic in our own way.
We can agree to agree on that Barbara!
Re the "debate," I'm seeing a lot of criticism of the media for the lack of real time fact checking. As I understood it, 'no fact checking' was one of the conditions for the debate that was spelled out in advance--and that BOTH SIDES AGREED TO. Huge mistake by the Biden team, IMHO. That was an open invitation to Trump to lie his head off, and he certainly did.
I would think with current technology, and especially since the questions are known in advance, real time fact checking should be possible.
The rationale apparently was, fact checking was the opponent's job. So Biden was supposed to just keep repeating, "That's a lie" after everything Trump said? After enough repetitions, that would just make Biden look petty and stupid, not to mention correcting each of Trump's lies eating up Biden's allotted time. How much better a neutral and authoritative voice pronouncing "UNTRUE" and providing brief correct info after each of Trump's lies.
I am unhappy with how the leaders of the rest of the world are not being heard from in rebuttal of Trump's statements saying that they laugh at Biden, etc..
Les, I couldn't agree with you more. Pres. Biden has done a great deal to assure world leaders -- at least of democratic countries -- that the USA is not beyond the pale.
Actually, CNN hosted and moderated the debate, not MSNBC. MSNBC was given rights to broadcast CNN's debate, as were other MSM networks. CNN is now owned by a rightwing entity, Liberty - so don't expect much fact-checking of MAGAs there.
I hope he can still speak extemporaneously. If he cannot, you are making the case for an immediate article 25 action.
Is that what you mean to do?
He is surrounded by competent and experienced staff that can help run the country but apparently not a campaign. I too would like an extensive 60 minutes style interview, soon.
I would like us to focus on what happened yesterday at the Supreme Court. The real problem. Biden is the candidate. There will be no switching of horses in mid-stream. The object is to make sure trump is not re-elected. Not to nit pick 90 minutes.
This is not a debate society. Why is that so hard to understand? The man has been one of the best presidents in the last 80 years and now everyone is back to high school and acting accordingly. It was a DEBATE! Not the running of the government. That speaks for itself. He is doing a magnificent job. Why is that so hard to get through so many people's head?
The issue is what most voters think. Three quarters have long thought Biden was too old. But since there are arguments about how well some 90 year olds function. Some of us think we can just
set aside those concerns. I guess all those examples also mean some of us would support a 90year old candidate. Can we return to the real world? The issue is whether Biden can win. In a reasonable world the total fucking moron (and lying fascist) Trump would have no chance. We don’t live in that world so we need to adjust when Biden showed the world he wasn’t up to it.
Jen, An inability to think and speak extemporaneously is not grounds for removal from office. Nonetheless, given the stakes, if Biden can’t show that last Thursday’s meandering debate performance was an outlier, while there’s time before the Convention in August, I believe it’s wholly appropriate taking stock and having conversations in the White House as to whether staying the course is the best way to defeat Trump vs. allowing for a contested Convention aimed at passing the torch, in November, to the next generation.
If the inability to speak extemporaneously is a concern for re-election, it ought to be now also. I too would like an explanation. And Biden needs to reassure by doing some extensive interviews, not prompter -assisted speeches.
It is so late.... do his close confidants not see what danger we're in? I'd very much like to hear what the international communities have to say. Macron et al we're with him in meetings just a few weeks ago.
Many people I know that are deciding whe
ther to vote or not want to know who actually is making the decisions in the Biden Presidency. they say they deserve to know before he gets their vote.
Where have these people been the past 3.75 years? In la la land. It is sad that so many people are so poorly informed that they used the debate to inform themselves. They should be reading and finding some worthy news sources.
I think the Bidens need to tell us what the hell happened on that stage. Honestly. And how they will not let it happen again. I think the country now fears they are gaslighting us as well. But I also think that the Alternative is SO deadly that, as one Republican voter said post-debate "I'd vote for a corpse over Trump." And another said "I'd vote for Biden's brain in a bottle over Trump." If that is the only way to win this election, then I'm willing to shout that from the housetops. Democrats have never been ruthless enough to win over ruthless opposition; now is the last chance to try.
Suzc, I maintain that Biden needs to show through unscripted events that last Thursday’s meandering debate performance was an outlier. That said, if it ends up that Biden is the nominee out of the August Convention, then everyone who cares about our democracy has to do everything they can to help Biden defeat Trump.
I agree with you.
I maintain you should listen to people other than those who are looking for click bait. Because you know what? Biden has a job to do......he runs a country. He had done it extremely well. Good thing you weren't at the Battle of the Bulge, Valley Forge, Manassas, because they were disasters for the US.....with your attitude and the click bait mongers, y'all would have wanted the US to cut and run. One fucking debate does not a political campaign make......got that. Quit with the unscripted manure. EVERY PRESIDENT USES SCRIPTING. Biden is was not scripted when he met supporters after the debate well after midnight.....no script. Got that no script. No script when he was on the picket line. Went off script at the state of the Union........stop being a shill for the click bait wahoos who think they control the narrative - and with your help and others chirping the same nonsense? They are.
What if what happened on stage was that an old man showed he was starting to lose it? You can't just say it was one night because the subtext of the entire event was whether Biden would show himself strong and vigorous or the old guy losing it that people fear he is becoming because of his age. How can they keep it from happening again? It will happen again because he in fact is an old man. I am exactly one month and five days older than Biden. I'm pretty lucid I think (still get letters in the NYTimes). But I'm not confident I'll be lucid in four years. When Joe and I will be 86. Further comments of mine on Joe's outrageous decision to run here: https://mitchellzimmerman.substack.com/p/brief-rant-on-biden-why-come-back.
Here's my point: If Joe wins, there is time to assess when he should retire from the fray. And there are ways to do it like Art. 25. If Joe loses, we all lose....we lose everything, not just everything we hold dear but everything.
I may not be confident in what he will be like in four years but I do not care. As one former Republican said Thurs night, "I'll vote for Biden's corpse over Trump"! THAT is the stakes! The country and the world and my family all need for Trump to be defeated in November. And it's too late to change horses midstream as we're 10 weeks from early voting.
Biden's team let him down and let us all down. Heads should roll. The rest of us should make sure Biden is reelected.
Is everyone here a millennial or younger? Do you know no people older than 50? I have a 90-year old mom who lives around people in their mid-90s who are fit as a fiddle mentally and physically. My mom's best friend from school lives near me. Then there are people who are old. The stereotyping on age, led by an ignorant press filled with people to young to understand age who clearly didn't major in human biology. Age is a number, aging is biology and affects different people differently. I happen to currently know about 20 people in their 90s thanks to my mom and my life. I also have a man working on my house who is 85. He is a bit stooped, but is the best worker, who does excellent work. When he makes a wall it is perfect, or installs a light, or does electrical work. I am absolutely sickened by the hatred, ignorance and misunderstanding of age. If Biden were 35 and he was ill, no one would be calling for him to resign from a speech. Trump said fascist things and is a convicted rapist, and fraudster, nearly as old as Biden, less fit and not a word is said about either his age, his criminality or his fascism and inability to follow the constitution as begging for him to step down. He is not even legally allowed to be a candidate in many states based on his actions, but we have taken an evil despot and elevated him and every word against Biden just elevates Trump. Why would anyone in their right mind elevate Trump.
Low bar indeed. Biden did fire back on occasion. But he succumbed to the gish gallop fully. I cannot help but imagine what a Newsome or a Klobuchar or a Buttigieg could have done. Instead we got the deer in the headlights stare. Biden has to demonstrate his mental acumen for all to see, ASAP. And if he will not or cannot, we have to act boldly wihtout a moment to lose.
Boldly four months from election day means ALL IN for BIDEN. There is no time to change horses midstream and it is never a good, and has never been a successful, plan.
So what. All of us here would succumb to Gish Gallop, and not run the country as well. We don't have the experience.
Jay, I agree and would add I have been operating boldly very much out of public view and am sensing I’m being heard.
Sensing you are being heard. God I hope so. I sense the opposite. This November is going to be a test of the soul and compassion of the American people. A test of the rationality of the American people. And a test of the intelligence of the American people. We have failed that test before.
(From my book, "Donald's Vanity Tantrums" published in 2020. I guess I was ahead of my time.)
A Fireside Chat
President Franklin Delano Roosevelt began a series of informal radio chats to the American public during a turbulent time in the 1930s. The radio back then was to communicating as Twitter is today. Here is an excerpt:
“My fellow Americans, it is whispered by some that only by abandoning our freedom, our ideals, our way of life, can we rebuild our defenses adequately, can we match the strength of the aggressors. …I do not share these fears.”
Trump demands a quaint, televised, fireside chat to compete with FDR. Here is a sneak preview:
“My friends, Hillary Clinton will never see the inside of the White House again as long as I live.
“You people love me so much that I know you want to keep me as your president for life. The Constitution now allows this extended appointment of the executive branch. Our blessed homeland needs me to lead it. I have authorized The Enabling Act, borrowed from German Chancellor Adolf Hitler’s proposal to restrict powers of the Reichstag in 1933. His SS troops made legislators give up their civil liberties and transfer state powers to the Reich government. I’m pleased to tell you that the Democrats will sign away their legislative powers while my ICE agents surround the House of Representatives. I have the power to dissolve Congress and allow my Cabinet to pass much needed laws to Make America Great Again. And I pledge to you that all fake impeachment activity to convict me has ended.
“I also pledge to you that we will root out the communists, Marxists, fascists, and the radical left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country. And we will remove all undocumented immigrants that are poisoning the blood of our country. And we will remove the portrait of African-born Barack Hussein Obama from the White House wall.
“My first act tomorrow will be to have House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Shiftless Adam Schiff picked up for questioning to ascertain their patriotism for the United States.
“I know I’ve been accused of a quid pro quo with Ukraine. There is nothing wrong with finding the truth about liars and cheats like Slow Joe Biden. And there’s nothing wrong asking a nation to help with uncovering wrongdoing by a corrupt man. As your President for Life, I will always tell you the truth. When I make a promise to you, I keep it.
“This concludes the first of my fireside chats. I can’t wait to tell you what I have in store for other scum Trump haters.”
It was either a reporter or same staff member that said the other day that President Biden is excellent in the WH and governing, it is only when he is in public that he fumbles. All I need to know and it shows, is that he is running the government well.
If the judiciary has a “rule” that if their spouses are involved in the particulars of a case coming before them, the judges must recuse themselves, could there be an appeal based on that? I know recusal is voluntary, but this is egregious abuse of privilege.
Jan, what we had in the debate is another failure to recognize Donald Trump for who he is, a tyrant with no boundaries. Most sadly, the “NonSupreme Court of the United States” confirmed that he has every right to be just such a villain.
Yet cannot Congress still impeach a president? I think this says no and if correct, then the only relief is to build a super majority and nominate 3 additional jurists. And the only conceivable way to achieve this is to cater to the masses to achieve this. And this implies moving to the political center and else wise. It means building a wall if necessary. It means outfoxing the MAGAs at every turn until we build out our expanded political tent.
Will we and can we? For all intents and purposes, no. The plain and simple is we will need to live with our new King — or Queen. The first act of our new King Biden should be to initiate Seal Team Six to clandestinely dispatch Trump and his sociopaths ASAP. And here I’m suggesting that this monstrosity of political freakdom be taken for a very nutritious lunch at Kuntucky Fried Chicken.
13 SCOTUS justices - one for each judicial circuit. Congress can do that.
We actually have our “King” now residing in the Oval! Release the Kraken!
The alternative technique for the gish gallop ( and having spent a career in sales, I cannot imagine it is a useful technique, since I was superb at what I did and never ever lied to my customers) is to calmly walk over and kick your opponent in the nuts and say "NOW shut up for a while".
It might be taught to timeshare sales people but they are fraudsters too. It was never taught to me.
Since 1215, with the sealing of Magna Carta by King John, the principle was established that the king was not above, but *subject* to, the law. This was revolutionary. The influence of Magna Carta is evident in the foundational principles of American constitutional law, including several state constitutions.
Now, 809 years later, the imperial Supreme Court turned this on its head. To me, the biggest takeaway from this horrendous ruling is that this principle was completely disregarded by the court.
Maybe we should send the conservatives back to 1214 when they'd be more comfortable.
They also disregarded "history and tradition" i.e. that we fought the Revolutionary War to get rid of a king. So much for "originalism."
And so much for Kavanagh's *repeated* insistence during his confirmation hearings that "the president is not above the law." Remember? https://youtu.be/8NoDFH9rg2Y?si=Ltqsnu5cbJex9PBE
Not to put too fine a point on it.....was he sober? Was he hungover? Was it before or after he burst into tears to prove how sincere he was?
LOLOL. Now THAT would be a viral moment!
Trump refused to debate Republican challengers. Biden had, I believe, nothing to gain by "debating" Trump, and should have told him, as President, sorry, buddy, you had your chance.
Part of this issue is what masquerades as "debate" nowadays; another part, and perhaps the most dangerous, is that tens of millions of U.S. citizens seem to think that Trump is a valid candidate/human being, and that thousands of local, state, and federal elected officials are afraid of him.
My fantasy (unfortunately, it's a fantasy in the U.S.) is that every eligible voter in the U.S. registers. And votes. If that were to happen, Trump cannot win.
If you think the Gish Gallop was the essence of Biden's problem, you're blinding yourself to what everyone saw. He not only failed to respond effectively to Trump's lies. He was incoherent in much of what he said, over a prolonged period of time. And blaming the team seems evasive. He was prepared for many days, and didn't give the responses he rehearsed. Or anything coherent on key topics that he's spoken about before. What happened is that he appeared he had a period of diminished focus and concentration. And it went on for 90 minutes.
Calling it a bad night ignores the fact that for most voters, he answered the question they have -- has his age weakened him? -- and the answer was damaging. His presentation was not that of a debater out of his depth in debate. It was an old man starting to lose it.
In any event, what is preposterous about Biden's decision to run is that he and his wife and enablers have ignored the obvious, unanswerable concern regarding an 81 year old candidate: even if he's functional now, how can you feel confident he'll be fully functional in four years when he is 86? I'm one month older than Biden. I can't say I'm confident I'll be fully functional when I'm 85 or 86. He never should have run. If what we saw meant nothing, at best it still reminds us -- everyone -- that he could be like that half the time when he's 85.
Maybe it's time for you to think long and hard about what you wrote. You seem to have bought the MAGA thinking hook ,line, and sinker. No one cares if you are functional or not at 81. Biden is and will continue to be. That's the point. At 93. Warren Buffet is sane and functional, but, then no one is asking him to play silly games like debating a raving lunatic. How about Rupert Murdoch? He still holds the reins of the corporation and spews lies across three major countries.....no one talks about that....in fact, it is his empire that is leading this charge and you have become one of the messengers. He thanks you.
A close friend of mine died six weeks shy of his 108th birthday, during the pandemic. He was an active lawyer into his 80s, and had an office at the major firm where he spent his career until his death, though once he passed the age of 100, he didn't use it much.
Only in his 90s did he need a pacemaker. He was sharp as a tack mentally up to the end, and had the memory of an elephant, as they say. I asked him at his 100th birthday dinner party (one of many dinners that week) if he considered Citizens United to be the worst SCOTUS ruling of all time, and he quickly responded, "No, the Dred Scott decision was" and continued to elaborate upon it. Everyone at the table - many lawyers - so enjoyed his remarks.
I would dearly like to consult him - with his long view - about what's happened with SCOTUS in the past two terms. I believe he would be very unhappy, and concerned, and he'd have a savvy, wise opinion.
I wish I could hear it.
If I thought there was zero chance of Biden being replaced, I wouldn't be writing publicly about it.
The fact that some people are entirely functional into very old age doesn't prove that everyone will be. As for the MAGA lords, even a broken clock tells the right time twice a day. I'm not inclined to ignore disturbing realities because the other side also notices them.
Questioning whether he should have run again or not is a futile exercise. He *is* running, and we need to keep watching his back. He's cogent now, coming off one bad night. Look at what this guy – who some people thought was too old to run in 2020 – has accomplished in 3 1/2 years. It's remarkable. He'll be fine after we reelect him.
I’m with Joe.
Trump is not anywhere near to any kind of qualified person to sit as president - for a day. Remember the reaction to his bullying internationally? I certainly do. The UN delegates laughed at him openly. Trump didn’t have a clue why.
This is who you want representing your country ? I’d suggest Never Again for that idea.
Basically a full time job, for 90 minutes, watching an 8 year old entertain himself. Torture. Pure torture. Where’s my ball and baseball glove? Nothing here for me.
Biden doesn’t live with trump day to day. He forgets what a consistent idiot he is. Listening to him lie about his family, his achievements, claiming some as his own, the stupefying rambling of nonsense would put me in such a rage I’d be speechless watch the ‘moderators’ for timing,
But this sounds very ageist. Because ...
Health is an issue at any age. Trump is cognitively impaired. Anyone who has actually listened to or read his rambling tirades and nonsensical rallies knows he's out of it, despite his youthful 78 years. In terms of health, mental or physical, it seems that great health isn't necessary to be a great president. FDR and JFK are examples. Fortunately for them both, they weren't followed around by media hucksters, or subjected to the weird so-called debate format, with zero fact-checking.
Biden’s team has now dropped the nonsense about him having a cold.
Jan, You might watch to provide a proper link or citation to your statements about Gish Gallop.
Heather Cox Richardson explained it in her June 27 substack very well I thought.
Yes, I know that. However, you seemed to provide a word-for-word citation and it’s generally appropriate to cite or give credit to the primary or secondary author.
@ Joyce: "We each have the opportunity to join Justice Sotomayor in dissenting when we vote in November." @Katherine: "Joyce, we just have to get Biden elected."
We' have the capacity to overwhelm them at the ballot box. Millions of unregistered folk trend heavily Democratic. Register them to save democracy. Gen Z can outnumber them.
https://www.fieldteam6.org/
This is why I have been so upset about the press attacking Biden the way they did, hand in hand with this court, they are trying to bring us back to days of monarchy. I think that Biden should be pointing this out in his ads. We had a revolution to get rid of having a King, why should we let the most craven of people (Trump, Alito, Thomas, Roberts, Coney-Barrett, Kavanaugh, Gorsuch) have that role?
It is fascinating to observe how the British Royal Family is adored in the USA.
And that observation has always puzzled me. The Royals don’t seem capable of more than cutting ribbons and going on Holiday. Many of their ancestors were abysmal human beings. If you are going to adore someone, how about the team that built the James Webb space telescope? Attraction to status for status sake seems curious.
True. I did just read where what the Royals have been for centuries now, illegitimate heirs, and that the rightful descent today is an Australian named Michael Hastings. He is a direct descendant of Margaret I , a Plantagenet. Very interesting and apparently traced from blood lines and family trees.
I am confused about what happened to him during the debate. If he was fine before after since what happened in that brief time?
Nothing happened to him. The press manipulated the people and has been calling for him to step down. Our press is largely oligarchically owned by people who want to keep their taxes low, and who have such big egos they do not think that Hitler can happen to them here in the USA. Well, Hitler is just an example of what tyranny looks like, but Trump will be in a more powerful tyranny and has just as sweeping an agenda. Biden has only begun to undo the damage Ronald Reagan did to make the USA an illiberal democracy. No one else has even taken this on. Dems and Republicans have just carried on. Biden is a disrupter, turning the government from something that supports the wealthy only, to a government for the people. Putting us back into play with the other wealthy nations of the world who take care of their people. Trump wanted Norwegians to come here, but why would they when they are well taken care of in their own country.
Probably the cold medicine plus the avalanche of lies. I’m pretty good on my feet and don’t have a cold but doubt I could have withstood the overwhelming bullying mendacity of trump either (in a fit of pique, neither trump’s name nor that of robert’s supreme court will be capitalized)
Some doctors think cold meds reaction could be the culprit, and that's how it struck me while watching. Benadryl, for example. Here's a link from Newsweek: https://www.newsweek.com/did-cold-medications-affect-bidens-debate-performance-1919099
It seems to me that he and his doctors would have had better sense than to take something like Benadryl. Maybe a something with caffeine in it. I can’t really accept this as an explanation. My heart was breaking as I watched him.
Yes it would seem dumb, and why not offer further information if it was that simple? He did improve a good bit the second half but.... it could be a combination of things. For some reason I feel more hesitant to have a different candidate after this unbelievable decision. It's all hard but we know what we have to do - flip the House and keep the blue.
His "cold," miraculously disappeared the next day and he was vigorous and sharp. He just had a bad night, which was unfortunate due to the timing. I think all of our hearts sank that night, but he's bounced back, so we need to keep our focus and get him reelected. He's been a wonderful president and will continue to be. Go Joe!
Thank you, Susan. I was talking with some nurse friends yesterday, and they had come up with the same conclusion and were wondering why no one was talking about it. So glad to see this article in Newsweek, which I hope will be seen by many. It makes total sense to me.
It would be awesome if he or Jill could just lightly confirm it, sigh 🤷♀️
This is an excellent article and makes the case for cold meds very well. It would help us all if the Biden team would give a little more detail.
Very much so. I saw part of something on the news last night (maybe CBS?) where Biden told a fundraiser group that it probably wasn't a great idea to have had back to back overseas trips before the debate. Now, that would be actually before his prep week, but it would definitely explain what I also read about how he never started prep meetings till 11 am that week, etc. You certainly don't have to be 81 to need time getting over jet lag!!
I do wish Biden would recognize the American people probably value transparency more than most else, especially in a public servant. His honesty is his super power, especially against Trump, so the longer he goes without *publicly* confirming or elaborating on simple mitigating factors, the more concerning for me. Lichtman's 13 factors convince me he's still the best bet at this point though.
I’ve been on the fence since the debate, waiting to be reassured. I thought he could beat Trump before the debate but I don’t see how he can now. I’ll probably be struck by lighting for saying it, but it may be time to make a change and energize the party. This article made me feel a little better about that: https://apple.news/ADKWzC2QBTMCQ-eDm2KCyxg
Biden should have said .. would you shut the fuck up with your fairy tales… literally. When trump goes lower his face is easier to kick… just sayin
Biden now denying he ever had a cold.
Really, that's bizarre.... We can all search of course but if you have a link that would be wonderful. Days of overwhelm etc etc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQJ95gpJl24
Above is the acknowledgement of no cold medication.
When I get a chance I'll find the reference i was thinking of it was something like "no, I didn't have a cold, I was just really tired all of a sudden, I should probably not have been flying around so much". Something like that - I am paraphrasing, I'll get the exact quote....
Thanks so much- I remember hearing the part about too many plane trips the week before 👍
He was, but shouldn’t have been, expecting a debate, rather than to be bulldozed by so many lies, so quickly, that he couldn’t adequately respond.
He should have kept his eyes on the cameras and listened. and then, "Folks, I hope you and the media are fact checking everything Trump just said. It was all lies. Now, I believe the question was....." and then answered the questions! There was no hope of responding to or rebutting that torrent of words.
Old man. Late at night. Half sick (possibly medicated). EXHAUSTED. Gish galloped. Trying to answer the questions. His debate team has a lot to answer for! But now everyone is focused on whether he is sane instead of how we beat tyranny. I don't think anyone in that setting would have performed well.
Exactly!
Trump's behaviour was entirely predictable. If Biden wasn't ready for a torrent of lies and misdirection, then gosh, that is almost worse than having a blank stare.
Right? I mean, the change in him was intense. Awful during the debate and then fine at the waffle house, fine the next day and this is at all times of the day/night. I'm not saying there aren't issues with him, probably there are, but what happened on that debate stage?
Cold meds stop you. I go to bed after taking one.
Mistake/historical irony: a simple cold changes history? Don’t let it.
That GISH technique is just too much for anyone. Trump is bully of the worst type. Remember the other Republicans trying for the nomination and how trump did the same to them all. They all just couldn't respond to all the lies and hate tactics. Trump is a monster of first degree!!
Thank you, that's true. They had multiple debates, they were all accustomed to them, there were more of them than the atrocious jackass, but they all fell to his barrage of bullshit.
Very good point
An elderly person can easily get distracted if he allows it. Recall the Mitch freeze. The trick is to not be led astray and focus on the mock debates that should have given Biden the direction to not directly respond to questions asked but lash out at Trump with every question with a statement of his own.
If it means anything, I has a similar episode in 1993 when I was only 49. I am susceptible to jet lag. I flew from Miami to San Francisco for a presentation. I blanked out - was hospitalized. It was mostly due to dehydration.
Biden had a bad night. Trump has a bad life.
Check out this podcast that addresses the idea of Biden taking a cold medication that may have affected his performance. Start at minute 11:36, or so, to hear the explanation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdNjqqDXiQo
Even what are considered safe medications have side effects; like, for instance, DayQuil can produce "dizziness and/or sleepiness" in some people.
Thanks, Lynell. I had forgotten how much I used to like listening to Keith Olbermann!
You mean like he had a cold? Have you had a cold recently? Knocks one down. Also as very important people have said, Biden was over coached and not allowed to rest. Other than that, he was fine and I believe it
If Biden had a cold, then his team would have announced (or at least leaked it) before the event. There was no announcement. So he didn't have a cold. So he wasn't on cough medication. So it was something else. That chain of thought is depressing, but it exactly matches up with Biden being fine and feisty before and after the event. Also Jill Biden made no mention of him having a cold, she said he was just off form.
Sabrina, I have thought long and hard about that very question. My cheeky answer is that Trump jabbed him in the butt with a drug backstage, having telegraphed his desire to do so (and possibly black magic, as he has never had a consequence ever). My serious answer is a combination of things: The "Gish gallop gaslighting" of Trump, against a half-sick, exhausted, overprepared, 81 year old man, late at night after a long day, trying to follow the CNN "debate" rules. I blame his debate team and CNN. Heads should roll for that fiasco. But Joe is ultimately the one to decide and he should explain to us why he performed so poorly. I'm willing to take "sick, exhausted, Gish gallop"; because the alternative is far too unacceptable 10 weeks before early voting.
Absolutely right on with your assessment. I would also add that his team played this card the wrong way thinking in ANYWAY that there would be a “debate”. He didn’t need to be in that position in the first place. They should have never overflowed him with facts and helped coach him by saying SLOW DOWN. BE YOURSELF, you’ve got this. With the stutter, cold, medicine, etc…gaslighting…he had a bad night and is surrounded by good to great people. Trump is evil…getting worse, surrounded by evil, bad people.
The only thing that can save our country is a certainty that trump is not elected.
Unless he tells us otherwise, best guess would be cold meds plus, as a stutterer, there are techniques used to help the speaker overcome stuttering. The President got pulled out of his planned hesitations by the two minute format. But if no one is talking, who knows for sure?
I found one of Jill's comment to be revealing. She thought completely reasonable to tell a crowd: "Joe just told me he just didn't know what happened to him". As if that makes it reasonable. If his team wants to invent a cold then they should stick to the plan. It's difficult to not believe he's had more than one of these "events". Indeed, at the Kimmel/Obama/Biden event a few days ago you could see hints of that same vacant stare.
It is being said that Biden’s “slow,” halting responses were due to a cold, exacerbated by a full, exhaustive Presidential schedule (two back-to-back European trips!) followed by intense “debate coaching.”
All true.
But what I saw on that stage was Biden being AGHAST at Trump’s tirade, yet, unfortunately, his facial EXPRESSION - eyes staring, jaw dropped and his mouth agape — instead of telegraphing, “WTF?,” sadly looked like a face you would see on a stoke victim. I found myself yelling at the TV, “close your mouth!!”
Then when he tried to respond, using his few allotted minutes, he didn’t know which lie to “rebut” first. Consequently he appeared confused and unprepared and his halting speech just added to the poor picture.
The next day when I read Heather Cox Richardson’s Substack explaining Gish Gallop I wept.
He was standing in the presence of Satan!
This entire thread shows how people pay attention to the wrong thing. F87k the debate, pay attention to the dismantling of our republic.
I had to politely dress down a Millennial colleague yesterday about immature concerned babble about Biden being too old and thats her main hesitation. I told her just as you write we elect an administration, it isnt just about a man. And that the argument about Biden’s age not only is short-sighted, it is also veiled or unconscious sexism because if (write in a straight white man politician’s name) were VP people wouldnt be talking about his age. She majored in political science and admitted she’d been ignoring the political landscape these days as its depressing. You think?? Hell yeah and it’ll be more depressing if the Millennials distract themselves whining about Boomers and dont vote! I think and I hope I scared her (and gave her ideas) to shift into action.
There is a simple way out of this horror. If President Biden gives VP Harris a lifelong position as an appellate judge and names Gov. Newsom his running mate, we will win 2024, 2028, 2032...
No humiliation for Biden and all three are happy. Why not?
Kamala for the Supreme Court. Now!!
now that is a good idea!
So long to the Black vote, that's why.
Katherine, though I haven't seen Pres. Biden in person, I have seen him on tv in a number of situations and thought that he seemed on top of things, though obviously he tires more easily than he did when he was younger. Me, too. I'm two years younger than he is, and I believe he's in better physical shape -- and much wiser and intelligent on political issues than I. I agree with all you have said here.
I am MOST thankful for your words that you have seen him in person. (I am furious with CNN, furious with his debate team, and not all that happy with his wife who let him go onstage in that condition and has failed to come out and tell America what was wrong with him in that 90 minutes--because something was wrong, but he seemed fine to me both before and after, so I'm leaning toward the Dark Arts or Trump jabbing him with a drug in the butt as Trump always projects what he's about to do.) I THINK AMERICA NEEDS IN-PERSON VERIFICATION from people not on his staff.
I agree. We need him, but with media throwing $pit on him every chance they get thinking it is news, they cause so much harm to all of us too. Their short sided behavior is no different than the animal with the cigarette in its mouth! People see it often enough, it becomes.the norm? We know it's deadly harm. If media or anyone else succeeds in running Biden off and another steps in, it will divide the party resulting in the demise of life as we know it here and globally! Biden needs to stay!! Polls can go jump! I can't watch "news" and want to throw something at the tv.
The only remedy is for Congress to pass an amendment nullifying the court' ruling. I won't hold my breath even though my Congressman just introduced this amendment.
Intermittent mental acuity and physical capacity are not enough. The American people have long stated their concern with Biden's age and diminiution and the Democratic establishment bears responsibility for ignoring this real and legitimate concern. At a minimum there should have been a Plan B, ready if the need to abort the Biden candicacy became apparent. I have no fealty to Biden and his legacy. He has been a good president but it does the future of our democracy no favors to ignore that he is no longer able to campaign effectively let alone rule for another 4 years
More have identified Trump’s maniacal derangement. My fealty to a democracy has waned we moved to South America… where at least the tumult is in Spanish and above our comprehension… ignorance is bliss
With this Court, one can possibly argue - despite Gorsuch's "one for the ages" claim - that this decision, and Roberts' own opinion for the majority, was aimed at and tailored for tRump in particular, and that a *Republican* AG could indict a former Dem president for "criminal actions" that upon appeal to this Court, would fail the *official acts* criteria and be dumped into the prosecutable "unofficial acts" bucket. I mean, tRump and cohorts have for months talked about prosecuting Joe Biden for his "corrupt and criminal behavior", and who among us would gainsay SCOTUS greenlighting these prospective actions by the same tortuous logic?
A roadmap for authoritarian, anti-constitutional rule, folks, it's there in black and white.
All I can think of is Project 2025. This is part of the plan. But if these rubes on our former “supreme” court think they’re going to be part of the elite, think again. They are not.
There is a window that a couple of issues that may remain in the DC case. Chukan has to hold suppression hearings, but it is possible that the interference with the electoral college counts may remain. DOJ probably has to withdraw everything else.
IMHO Garland made seral tactical miscalculations -- charged Trump with the wrong statutes. I would have prosecuted the henchmen first and brought cases against Citizen Trump -- when immunity does not apply. He left the presidency Jan 21, 2021. The statute of limitations has not run on insurrection.
18 USC §2383. Rebellion or insurrection. Probably 5 years.
Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
To this day, Citizen Trump is giving aid and comfort to insurrectionists who have been convicted.
I don't know about anyone else, but this motivates me to do MORE, donate more of my time and money.
Bless your heart, Daniel. I am spent, exhausted, disappointed, wondering why I have always supported and defended the Constitution of the United States in the Navy and in my career in the courts and beyond. I will recover I hope, but at this point it all feels like a charade, and my naïveté stuns me. The clown closed down the circus.
Maybe it was Rebecca Skolnit who shared a story that when you are singing in a chorus, you get to take a breath while the rest of the chorus continues to carry the note.
Perfect. "We're in this together."
Thank you, Ellie, for that visual. It is especially meaningful because I have sung in many choirs, and singing is something that gives me joy. I will sing.🥰🇺🇸🎶
Reality has shifted, that's for sure. Breathe, spend a lot of time with people you love doing things you enjoy. It's a long, protracted battle with no guarantee of victory, but we are many and our cause is just. Ellie Kona said it well.
Me too, from Ecuador now…
Daniel, Your statute looks perfect. If he had been charged with this, and we didn’t have a supreme court throwing insane barriers at any attempt to call trump a criminal, then he wouldn’t of been allowed to hold any public office. Oh my! Thanks for the idea.
They will be as long as they continue to comfortably follow instructions and quietly hide their bribes.
I doubt that. Kings know who they cannot trust and that includes judges (and politicians) who sell out their country.
Not bribes, they're tips... and they already fixed that problem with Snyder v. United States.
Again, Biden needs to exercise his new unwelcome powers and enlist the DOJ in arresting and prosecuting these "justices" for lying in their confirmation hearings, tax fraud and taking bribes. They aren't immune but he is.
That would disable Thomas, Alito and Kavenaugh a good start.
Sounds like his job description. But first investigate Ginni and Clarence and Samuel Alito and his wife. Rather than interfere with the executive branch… it will make it work
Not just investigate but punish. Stirring the pot is not enough. It must be served up to be beneficial.
A Coup D'etat by any other name is still a Coup D'etat and should be treated as such. If Joe Biden won't do it then he should stand aside and let Kamala do it. And she would deal with it without all those 70's constraints Joe has.
Is Biden too much of a gentleman to go down that slippery slope? And I’m not saying it’s a good idea in general. Perhaps Joe should enlarge the Supreme Court during this term in an attempt to balance out Trump’s cronies on the bench? It’s been done before, and so won’t be an issue - one district, one justice. Sounds like a necessary step.
No can do. The House isn't going to allow it.
I thought SCOTUS appointments only had to be confirmed by the Senate.
But the law expanding the number has to be passed by both houses and signed by the President. Then the other kicks in.
Thank you for that clarification. :)
I apologize if this is something I should already know, but frankly I’m so sick and tired of all of this my brain is just like MEH. But here is my question - this should have no impact on the Mar a Lago documents case, no? Because he was NO LONGER PRESIDENT when he pulled all of those shenanigans?? So can we please just get rid of that poor excuse for a judge Loos Cannon and get this the heck over with?
It is a reasonable conclusion BUT this undeserved so-called “court of law” might even say that he took the documents when he WAS President! An official act by a sitting President. Therefore prosecuting him for refusing to return them violates his official duties. Crazy no? But they don’t care as long as they protect their boy! Shouldn’t surprise us! This majority is a group of criminal defenders.
Read Thomas's concurrence. It is nothing less than an instruction manual for Cannon to disqualify Jack Smith and scuttle that case.
It sure feels like Thomas has been coaching Cannon behind the scenes. What’s to stop him from talking to her regularly to give her advice on how to obstruct?
Ok, doc. Since you're an attorney and my brain is as MEH as yours at least ... can disbarment proceedings be brought against Supreme Court "Justices"? And if so, can someone without a law license sit on the Supreme Court? I know it's a dumb question, but it's been a very, very stupid day. And of course these "justices" would simply sue against the loss of their law licenses, and this would be taken to the highest (lowest) court and nullified.
A more serious question is what we as citizens can do to not cooperate with unconstitutional rulings made by the so-called guardians of the Constitution. The Founders determined that this country would not be ruled by a king. Yes, we can vote Biden into a next term of office, and this Court could nullify that. But we can do mass demonstrations, go on national strike. Blue state governors could say that law does not apply here. I'm reaching, but the Supreme Court just rebelled against the Constitution. How can that be valid?
SCOTUS justices do not even have to have a law degree, hence cannot be disbarred.
I think the justice from California was an MBA…. Warren Burger??
SCOTUS began taking to itself powers not given it in the Constitution back in Marbury v Madison. This is just the logical result of Mitch cramming, unlawfully imho, three unfit judges onto the court (or two unfit and one illegitimate). Mitch unleashed Alito and Thomas. The Constitution says SCOTUS serves for life absent "bad behavior" but only Congress can address what bad behavior IS. There have been judges removed and one justice impeached but not convicted (I think).
I'm with King Joe arresting a few of them for corruption and bad behavior. I'm also for expanding the court not just to water down the GOP but to handle a few more cases (they get 8000 a year brought and take only a few hundred). I think King Joe can now also remove Trump. Sadly King Joe is a good man and not a madman and not ruthless enough. But we can wish for a few minutes before getting back to work.
National strike! That would be historic.
I, unfortunately, don’t believe voting is the answer to this travesty. The “supremes” are untouchable. And November is too far away to take chances with what could happen between now and then.
One thing I keep thinking about is the need to make sure the House is voted Democrat this fall. It’s so we don’t have Johnson as Speaker if Biden would win, and became unable to continue as President then VP Harris would become President and the Speaker would become VP. I’m thinking too much!!
Unfortunately voting is the only thing we have now. The only thing that will rein in the Supreme Court and by proxy whatever president they choose to install, is this next election and getting a majority in Congress that will support President Biden to make the changes needed by passing legislation that will stop these things from happening. Nothing is more important now in my opinion then protecting democracy and pulling back the power that these justices have given themselves and their preferred president. Because nothing else will matter if we don't do that. I've never been a big fan of packing the court, but I think it's really the only way to do it this time and we can only do it with a Congress that will support President Biden.
Before the election, we are not sure, but any decision she does make will be grounds for recusal. Jack Smith is ready and waiting.
Problem is if Jack forces her recusal, her Federalist Society lawyers will fight the decision all the way to the Supreme Court, which will then declare her to be perfectly fine to hear the case - and entitled to some kind of a 🎖️ - and I’ll probably be deceased before the purloined classified documents case ever gets to a final decision.
I'm not sure that's how recusal/removal works. It may be that the 11th Circuit is the final arbiter. Joyce can tell us.
And now that you mention it, I think Clarence Thomas might have some kind of authority in the 11th circuit. So he would be the one to declare Cannon good to go. Thank you for pointing this out.
Yeah, I recall hearing that too. They each have circuits which they oversee and 11th is one of his.
Ironic
I also found the case pretty thick. As I understand the logic of the decision, the six right-wingers give great weight to the supposed need to allow the president to be unrestrained in the exercise of power and zero weight to the risk that a president would abuse the extraordinary power of the presidency. Zero weight notwithstanding that the case before the court not only illustrated the risks of a royal presidency, but did so in a context in which the court could have taken judicial notice that the basis of Trump's actions were all lies. That is, they knew that 60 cases had found (essentially) that there was no stolen election.
If we follow history at all, we come to the opposite conclusion from the six right-wingers: The Framers of the Constitution were concerned that the president should NOT have the same above-the-law prerogatives of a king, and anticipated that he would be restrained. That's what the Federalist Papers emphasized with regard to the presidency.
AS I UNDERSTAND CORE CONSTITUTIONAL POWERS AND IMMUNITY CONCEPT: Do I have this right, Joyce? One example: The president is commander in chief, so what he does with the military is within the exercise of his core constitutional powers. The Court "therefore" holds he has absolute and complete immunity from liability for crimes committed in connection with such powers. So he could indeed order a SEAL team to assassinate a political adversary and have absolute immunity for doing so. Again, no mind that Trump has demonstrated his actual contempt for our democratic constitutional framework, and might well do such a thing. Literally.
We keep saying this is like a king or a royal presidency. But it may be better to think of it as fascism: the glorification of The Leader, whose will is all that matters.
The one who wanted to by Greenland in exchange for Puerto Rico. Seriously. Wouldn’t this make all executive orders part of his official duties and not subject to Court’s review. Biden should outlaw guns and establish collection teams to round them all up (like trumps deportation force), make abortion the rule of the land; equal rights, pay and standing for all; student loan forgiveness; sell the opportunity to naming rights for the Supreme Court Building or just change it to the Obama Hall of Justice, speaking of the Supreme’s… stack the Court now… if EXECUTIVE ORDERS ARE OART OF THE TWILIGHT AREA, THERE IS PRESUMED IMMUNITY IF IT PARTLY FALLS IN PART OF THE PRESIDENT’s JOB. YEAH SUPREME COURT!
Unfortunately, what you suggest ignores the separation of powers. The president doesn't have the power to usurp Congress's powers. Similarly, the courts can't contradict Congress's laws as long as they're constitutional. It seems out only way forward is to get a super majority in the Senate, win back the house, and reelect Biden.
But this court says congress can't review his actions if they are within his executive authority . Where is the separation of powers here? So separate the Congress must be blind?
Jen, it's not clear to me that you're commenting on my post. If you're not, you might want to reposition it accordingly. If you're response is indeed to my post, I don't quite see how it applies.
But let me try to respond: One consistent pattern in the SC's rulings is that they don't second guess Congress when Congress was explicit when passing a law. The executive can't override Congressional laws. Congress can't tell the courts what to do. If Biden were to sign executive orders to do whatever "Mike in the Desert" wrote, he'd be usurping Congress's powers beyond what the constitution days are his powers. Republicans would challenge those actions in courts and likely win.
But the ruling says … if shared by congress … presidents can make executive orders to make laws and congress can make laws … presumed immunity
That'd be the best way, yes. Not the only way, but I shudder to think what some other ways might look like.
Of course it does, but so does the ruling. Of course the law says Congress makes laws. But in the course of his role as President, one makes executive orders… and the ruling says even if the president breaks laws intentionally… if doing so even in part of his duties … he is presumably immune
That’s exactly what it is.
I'm pretty sure you are correct Mitchell
Very clear thank you
The Supreme Court has done its best to reverse the North’s victory in the Civil War. Incredibly, it now seeks to reverse the result of the Revolution.
Robert Hubbell agrees.
https://roberthubbell.substack.com/p/the-supreme-court-is-the-biggest
Hello Joyce, here is an excerpt from your analysis. My question follows.
"The Court says there is a presumption that immunity applies here, unless the government can show that a prosecution won’t impair the president’s performance of his official functions."
Question: since prosecution in all cases brought against Trump are after he has left his official position as president, how can that prosecution impair his performance of official functions?
Thanks for helping us unpack and understand this opinion.
Jill, I was about to include the exact question you posed with the questions I asked. I think the idea is that if a president could be indicted and prosecuted after he leaves office she would hesitate to act with determination and vigor when making his governing decisions and putting them into action. Thus, a potential criminal prosecution would "chill" a president's authority and power to act while president.
They don’t mention Trump but rather the Office of the President… all hypothetical in Trump’s case. In fact after loses in November nothing that is done will interfere with the office of the president
Good question
They weren't. He was still president on January 6 even though soon to leave office.
I wonder about the ability of the military to refuse his orders, and Milley and his colleagues had planned to do as they were greatly concerned he'd try to start a war with China.
My question, too.
I have been shaken all day.
Same
me too
Dumb question: why should a President need immunity from criminal prosecution for official acts? What kind of nation are we if a President is committing a criminal act in their official role as President? Wouldn't lack of immunity be an excellent check-and-balance at the top on a nation's conduct? It seems that there is an assumption underlying all of the SCOTUS majority's deep thinking on this subject: namely, that we are a rogue nation with criminal Presidents who need immunity. As with so much else that's happened since 2015, this opinion is a massive exercise in projection.
It didn't used to be a dumb question but since Trump, we have to worry. And if not Trump, what other MAGA asshole is going to come down the pike? The Presidency has been sullied for good.
Today the Supreme Cort made a mockery of the “Equal Justice Under Law” emblazoned on the front of their building. With the possible exception of Nixon absurdly declaring “If the President does it, it’s legal,” never before has any President insisted on absolute immunity. As much as he might have desired it, the twice impeached, convicted felon ex-President Trump was not a king. And, he has already told us that if re-elected, he would be “dictator on his first day.”
I know this ruling is for “official” acts but who decides that? What exactly is “presumptive immunity?” Remember this opinion was supposed to apply to Trump’s actions before and during January 6. How was inciting an insurrection an “official act?”
The Calvary isn’t coming. It’s up to us to insure Trump NEVER sees the inside of the White House again. Ever.
Unless we can take steps to alter the make-up of the court, a Biden win is somewhat a hollow victory. Yes, it keeps Trump from office but Biden as President does nothing to protect any long standing precedent that protects many of the rights we think of as ours to have and keep. Think Gay marriage, interracial marriage, right to contraception, Segregation (Brown v. Board of Education), Miranda, right to counsel, any sort of Trans rights, right to Social Sec benefits for same sex couples. Any and all rights we think are set in stone are now sitting on sand. A Biden victory is important but it will not save us if we do not do something about the make-up of the Supreme Court.
The answer is that we need to re-elect Biden and we need to elect majorities in both the house and the Senate that will strongly support him. Once he gets that. What he needs to do is the first order of business which is add justices to the Supreme Court so that we can right these wrongs. If we don't right the wrongs that the Supreme Court has passed, especially this immunity case, then nothing else will matter, nothing.
I agree. We must elect Strong majorities in both the House & Senate. We must eliminate the filibuster, as well. I’m just not sure it’s possible to do so. The path to a Senate majority is very precarious and not likely to happen. The path to a majority in the House is difficult due to Red state gerrymandering. Even given all that, I refuse to give up hope. I am working to get a Dems elected and I hope that this debacle wakes people up enough to get everyone working together to make it happen.
So basically we are doomed.
It’s not Biden’s fault. When we had the Presidency, the House and the Senate, senators Manchin and Sinema blocked these actions. Manchin’s a coal baron. Sinema ran as a progressive and must have been corrupted. They blocked changing the filibuster.
Definitely a CHILL OF DOOM.
Roberts apparently thinks it is now okay to be sexist now too, "sit down little ladies." Indeed! the twit.
Although I agree with Vance's characterization, those were *Vance's* words, not Roberts'.
Source?
It's Vance's interpretation immediately following her quote of what he wrote.
I am so sick of that man.
Misogyny is alive and well.
Thank you, Joyce, for being here. It's still mindboggling, shocking and disheartening to absorb today's news.
Frankly I'm tired of being told we're in this together. I don't need someone to lay out what SCOTUS did. It's everywhere. What we need are people with clout like Joyce, Rick Wilson, the Lincoln Project, the Bulwark, Morning Joe, Adam Kinzinger, Liz Cheney and probably forty other people to stand on the steps of the Supreme Court and have a press conference with broadcast networks pounding home the corruption of the SCOTUS and Trump. Be loud. Sound the alarm on a loud scale. But don't shrug and say we all have to vote. I effing know that. I don't need to subscribe to substacks that tell me what I already know or read Republican Never Trumpers talk about why Biden should step down. We're less than five months from the election. We have two choices Biden or Trump. I'll take the money I'm wasting on substacks and donate it to the Biden campaign. And if we pull it off maybe Democrats can change SCOTUS by adding justices or initiating term limits.
And, I am screaming! God help us.
Rich White "Good Christians" won today. The rest of us are F'd.
I have two questions: First, according to a YouTube video tonight by MeidasTouch Trump has already filed a motion to use this immunity ruling to overturn or vacate - I don’t think the video specified which - his criminal guilty conviction in the NY election interference case. It seems like a real stretch to me to call those even peripheral official acts as they had to do with his campaign and his business records but I welcome thoughts on this. I understand from various writings on this that immunity is one of the few things that can be appealed before a trial. I realize that trial is finished, although the appeals are not. Can he use this to delay the sentencing in July 11? The video is here: https://youtu.be/gRwZsi0hev8?si=-8qL-3Eovan53ggX
Second, if a president is charged with any crime that requires he stand trial or even be incarcerated, that would violate this part of this opinion:
“…dangers of intrusion on the authority and functions of the Executive Branch.”
I could argue that even an impeachment and senate trial would intrude upon his functioning, so does that mean he can’t even be impeached or tried for anything, even if it an unofficial act because any such case would take time away from being president?
As an Ohioan, I immediately recognize this ruling as highly gerrymandered - pretzel twisted to forestall almost any chance of any president being charged with any crime. So there.
The majority's core belief clearly is that a president must not be "bothered" with any pesky concerns about obeying the law as they do their job..... And certainly not about serving the needs of the unwashed masses of citizenry. I mean, this majority demonstrates how their *own* evolution beyond those outdated concepts of "public service" in office has made their job so. Damn. Much. Easier. Gotta love the convenience of those now formally recognized "gratuities" for a job well done! And yeah, they did that thenselves! Cute, right?!?! /MASSIVESARCFONT end
What can Biden do about this biased imitation of a court of last resort, Joyce? He has power of executive order. These people are capable of invalidating our election, whatever the margin, without blinking an eye- Biden must serve the American people by forcing them to be accountable the same way as lower courts and the other branches of government. He can't wait till the crisis arises. All that involves I don't know, but surely our laws and Constitution still must permit justice to be done- right? Surely we're not all alone in the void here? 🙏
"By forcing them" should be "by forcing SCOTUS" - I don't see the function to edit comment in the app, just started using it this week to access chat and that's weird....
I think the falsification of all of the records in the case took place during Trump's presidency, but it's hard for me to see the theory on which repaying a campaign expense and characterizing it as a business expense could possibly be anything but a private matter. But the Supreme Court could weigh in on the question of whether a president can be punished for criminal behavior during his presidency. Or after being elected. If he would be above the law for murder, he's just too important to suffer criminal penalties that would interfere with his reign.
At least some of the checks were signed from his office, so those are now presumptively innocent actions. Those checks were presented to jurors as being evidence of a conspiracy to interfere in the Clinton/Trump election. But that evidence is now tainted. Merchan may push back, but it sounds like a retrial to me. The only hope I see is that Merchan decides these issues should be picked up by on appeal, not pre-sentencing. Which would still allow some jail time between now and Trumps inaugauration.
Very good questions, and I hope some legal minds can answer. But I would say “Maybe”?
For the New York case, as I understand it, the question of using the testimony of aides like Hope Hicks is in question to negate the conviction.