I think the preemptive pardon issue—the idea that President Biden should use pardons for people who have not been charged yet but may be at risk under the Trump Administration—is a very difficult one to assess.
It is a sad state of affairs that this country is so messed up that we even have to run these scenarios. None of this is about what’s good for the country or the honest, hard working people that make this country great. It’s all about protecting corruption and seeking retribution. It’s worse than school yard bullies and I don’t know how we’ll ever pull ourselves out of this and be a functioning, polite society with ethics and humanity.
Thank you Sharon for writing what I’ve tried to say for the last 30 minutes, writing, deleting, trying again. I’m so disgusted by the very idea of those in govt once again trying to placate a traitor that I can’t think straight.
As in the Watergate era, I loathe the idea of the main perpetrator getting off scot-free or pardoned while others serve time (Michael Cohen) and suffer otherwise, for doing the job they were hired to do.
As I watched the wonderful Notre Dame Reborn footage from Paris last night, the orange toad looked so out of place. Bent over and scowling like the Hunchback of Notre Dame. Otherwise, the whole effort by France and the world to renew the cathedral was very inspiring and uplifting. I loved that our current First Lady and her daughter arrived after he did. He wanted that privilege!
Another one of these articles that basically says let's watch him dig his own grave. As if the wrongs can be righted if/when the good guys can get power back. I fear the damage he will do (and is already doing and what he has already done), some of it at least, is not fixable. It has and will ratchet down our status as the world leader, indefinitely. And vitally important things like climate change - finally doom us for good. I believe we cannot sit idly by and watch his train wreck develop. We have to fight him every step of the way.
Yes, it is Macron’s country and I assume he invited Trump. And, yes, I saw Trump’s attempt to break Macron’s arm. Like a lot of Trump’s behavior, it reminds me of what a childish bully would do on a schoolyard somewhere.
Remember, s.v.p., that, also under Burdick, the person who accepts a pardon admits culpability, at least for evident or proven culpability. This idea may not apply to group pardons that act more like clemency or amnesty.
What we actually need is total absolution for our "sins." Trump included.
I was in a discussion yesterday whether Biden should pardon Trump and people like Eastman. I don't think Trump would offer a quid pro quo.
As I've said previously, threats to political figures may/may not be crimes, state and federal. I'm old and in the way, but if I were a DA like Fani Willis who was threatened, I'd take it to a grand jury.
"What we actually need is total absolution for our 'sins.' Trump included. I was in a discussion yesterday whether Biden should pardon Trump and people like Eastman. I DON'T THINK Trump would offer a quid pro quo." I've read this opinion in a number of places, but it makes absolutely no sense to me. If the orange sadist WON'T offer a quid pro quo, why in the world should Biden pardon him?! I hope you'll explain why this is a reasonable thing to do.
Plus how do you enforce a quid pro quo? Trump is a notorious liar. I wouldnʻt believe anything he agreed to, even if he put it in writing and swore on a bag of Big Macs. Heʻs notorious for stiffing contractors (who presumably had contracts).
Pardoning T would be the biggest mistake. First of all, T says he hasn't done anything wrong. Second he will continue to commit crimes and hurt people. Of all people... he should NEVER be pardoned. I think Biden is too smart to do that.
I concur Sharon on all your points. However, the professor mentioned about 100 names targeted by Wreck II. Kash Patel, Bannon & others have targeted about 150 names.
Congressional Representatives (Liz & Adam)have built-in legislative immunities from arrest even "questioning". As Professor Vance noted some criminal (not) or civil actions may be subject to a prompt Motion to Dismiss. But, lives & families will be disrupted. Lost time & costs will be incurred.
*Federal and/or state litigators must aggressively defend the ALL persons private (Dr. Fauci) & public defendants such witnesses from any disruption to their lives & families.*
This Weekend I answered an ABA Survey sent to Active to Members about proposed ABA action programs for 2025. There are many different ways to stop any autocratic attacks, from "Go Fund Them" & their lawyer fees, to organizing volunteer pro bono Litigation Teams, to the clever triggering of defense liability policies & statutory indemnity law to protect specific individuals.
So, what's the problem. If Biden pardon a large group of people preemptively like say all election officials and they choose not to accept the pardon, where is the harm?
After the court grants a dismissal or the grand jury chooses not to indict, the ABA or other entities like the ACLU should immediately file a malicious prosecution case, tortious interference and/or a defamation case against Trump personally.
Thank you Gary; I hope "all election officials" includes me. I was accepted for that role in a CA County last November but, the CA County Registrar of Voters did not have to use me on Election Day - they had too many volunteers.
Let's look at your list of questions & my responses in the form of questions & other stuff:
1. "the Court grants a dismissal" -- Sure but, who specifically represents the plaintiff(s) & pays for the litigation and/or response to a bad faith appeal?
2. "the grand jury refuses to indict" -- who handles aggressive efforts to get identity of the prosecutor & 30-40 or so grand jurors? What about the judge & court personnel who handled the lawful proceedings?
One example, the jury foreperson is outed, harassed, pranked or family members are harassed or homes are invaded like Ruby & Shaye? That's where statutory indemnity rights & tort law come-in among other important legal options.
Fortunately, R&S had superb counsel who even chased the Perp into bankruptcy & recovered the Perp's classic Mercedes once owned by Lauren Bacall real $fortunate$ for R&S.
How many hours of litigators' work & research attorneys & staff did R&S deploy?
I've been there for CA families so the answer is many hours not 24/7 only 18/7.
3. "the ABA or other entities like the ACLU should immediately ...". I agree; I am an active ABA Member. ACLU? I agree again so I joined 3 months ago. The ACLU has a wide in all-states footprint & can handle state court and or Federal proceedings.
The ACLU needs donations & I am supporting that work which involves among many other legal tasks preparing for purported "mass deportations" of "illegals". Does that include their family members and/or children lawfully in a group who are already citizens of the United States? A family separation redux?
What about tortious interference or other torts like defamation? Gary, now you are getting very closes to the real work ... I'm gonna say it ... yes, yes, here it comes, "the best defense is a good offense".
This is where it gets real interesting & requires able counsel. In California we have our own state constitutional right of privacy on which plaintiffs & appellate courts have been generating new torts to meet the new 2024-25 tortious conduct. Lots of states & many developing legal remedies. The CA Legislature is in Special Session now.
Hey, first week in law school I learned, the law is alive just like in good old common law England back in the 11th Century. But, back then you had to walk or buggy to an organized group of "writ writers". The writs, "talking paper" required you use the exact words in an exact order. The gentry had to pay.
Any further questions? No -- good.
Please read Proser on Torts start-to-finish which by the way is an excellent history book that is still being written. There will be a test on 1/20/25 - a test for us all.
You’re my hero, Bryan, but you must know that. Have been giving $ here and there to ACLU and SPLC for umpteen years. We must fight “fire with fire”! The retribution guy won’t be around forever. Look at Assad.
Me too. But I suspect they shared my contact information with some other groups because shortly after I joined I started receiving texts and calls from several PACs. I never give to PACs because you never really know who they support.
Thank you for all this. I’m not a lawyer and am learning far more than my job has helped me learn in areas of law unknown to me.
Only recently have Substacks and articles begun to explain both the economic contributions of immigrants in the US - those with and without documents including those with DACA and TPS standing, those with green cards - and the guess of costs to round up*, put in detention camps, and deport IF they can be deported. None of this was well addressed during the Pres campaign. If on that and on the issue of who this crowd of incoming punishers decides to prosecute the human and humane issues can’t move voters and others to act responsibly, will the economic hit of all the potential litigation on top of deportation make any sense?
*Today I saw Tom Stoppard’s “Leopoldstadt” (at DC Shakespeare Theatre.) In it is a scene where a Black Shirt comes to the home of those targeted for the Camps. In addition to that horror, I envisioned 1/20/25 and beyond, finding my gut in greater knots.
I agree with some of what you say but imagine all the good that could be done in this country if we weren’t so busy funneling money to lawyers and other participants for retribution simply because someone loses an election, or because a crime is investigated. If Trump were truly innocent let him defend himself in a court of law. Claiming to be the party of law and order while refusing to face that legal scrutiny is a clear indication you think you’re above the law. If action would have been taken and these ridiculous delays, like going after Fani for having a meal with a coworker, would have been slapped down as frivolous we might have seen accountability. Even the New York cases that kept having sentences delayed show that this country makes excuses to ignore the law and give special privileges to certain people. We are a banana republic.
💯 believe that Trump targets MUST be protected from dirty politics. This may seem an extreme position however taking preemptive measures to protect these individuals & their families is the least we can do despite what MAGA thinks. This is beyond politics - it’s a matter of saving lives from persecution just bc they were brave enough to stand up for truth & decency, for democracy itself.
This is a no-holes-barred Era!!!! Manners are out the window. Goodwill and politeness are a thing of the past. maybe, again someday, maybe… We must protect the brave and those who saved lives… for example, Dr. Anthony Fauci. All of those who tried to preserve our democracy need to be protected. Time is ticking!!! Please, President Biden, continue to appoint federal judges and PARDON PARDON PARDON…. The orange blunder pardoned everyone from relatives to ophthalmologists with the last set of pardons when he came into his reign-check it out! It’s our time! Gosh, darn it, it’s our time! It’s a New World!!! Time to step up to the plate! Now, I need another cup of coffee!
Totally agree Sharon. Trump and his minions are corrupt, liars, cheats and all manner of nasty people. They won’t think twice about ruining people’s lives. Why does this administration always have to rake the “high road” when the minions always take the lowest road they can find?
I think about this same thing, there's no talk about moving forward,or any hints or mention of interesting,exciting plans for a better future for our country,just whiny crybabies bawling like calves about revenge and getting even for some perceived slight,mostly blown out of proportion to its actual reality.None of these asshats have ever mentioned a single goddamned syllable about working for anyone other than themselves and their enrichment,at the expense of people like you and me,and our families,coworkers,neighbors and communities.There isn't squat even being remotely considered that would benefit any of us.
The nitwits who think any of this idiocy will benefit them in the slightest,are in for a sobering shock.They are the absolute furthest thing from these people's minds.As we all are,or more exactly, aren't.We matter like ants on the windowsill,and just as expendable as those ants are.
I hope these idiots are really happy now.That'll be changing really soon.That happiness will soon be a faraway,distant memory.Too bad,so sad...
One question that crosses my mind: ¿is there a way for mega-M.A.G.A. states like Tejas and Flourida to bring charges or conduct harassment for supposed influence peddling if any of the products of companies from China, Ukraine, etc. -- and allegedly in cahoots with President Biden's son or brother -- had sales in those states? An interesting discussion of this subject from this morning. https://www.c-span.org/video/?540372-3/kimberly-wehle-presidents-pardon-power
We got through the Great Civil War; we got through the Great Depression; we got through a seemingly existential two-front war; we got through Watergate. We will get through this authoritarian long on the waste and short, no WASTed, in the mind.
I didn’t demand any pardons. Every one of those people ran for office to prosecute all criminals. Show me one case where Trump went to court and presented anything indicating he was innocent. The lawfare and weaponization is all on the Republicans side. I have NEVER seen such a spectacle as elected officials put on in New York. What a circus.
The most horrific part of all this is you’re out here crying foul and pretending Trump can do no wrong while absolutely ignoring the risk to our nation security while the greedy bastard sells every secret he can get his hands on. He refused to go to court and show he had a right to steal those secrets.
What will you do when the next 9/11 knocks on your door.?Grow up, be a man, quit being a victim and sycophant to the mob.
Go find a substacker that will pander to you and your PAB.
Your profile says “reviving intellectual honesty”. You would first have to find some intellect and honesty. Like I said go elsewhere to peddle your i gained victimhood.
President Biden: I’ve Decided to Pardon Every American Citizen
(And keep the Sleeze-bag Unstable Vicious Con-man Second Rate Mafia Wannabe About to Enter the White House From Persecuting Americans
Bill Katz
Dec 02, 2024
A Message from the President:
I have decided to first pardon my son, Hunter Biden, for being unfairly singled out for prosecution. He did wrong. He was addicted to drugs. He didn’t pay his taxes and he purchased a gun. He paid for his crimes. Yet my political distractors want to punish me by punishing him.
I therefore as your president, on this day, with equality for all, and determined to prevent the jackass from selective persecution, have decided to issue a blanket pardon to every American WITH THE ONE EXCEPTION BEINGTHE SUB HIMAN HIMSELF, DONALD J TRUMP. This blanket pardon will prevent the incoming incompetent sleeze-bag unstable vicious conman second rate mafia wannabe about to enter the pristine White House and infect it with his disease called Trump Syndrome or TS for short from prosecuting innocent Americans.
(I fixed it addressing a comment made about pardoning.)
I had forgotten until I read it today that Jimmy Carter issued blanket pardons to Vietnam War draft dodgers, although I recalled it after I was reminded. My concern for not issuing pardons, however flawed the idea is and however unlikely revenge prosecutions are to succeed is that those people will rack up legal fees they should not have to pay to defend themselves. I’m not sure what the right answer is here but I recalled from Cassidy Hutchinson’s testimony that she initially took a lawyer paid for by Trump or his allies and eventually managed to get pro bono services from someone else with help. Not all those Trump may go after can afford an attorney nor should they have to spend money even if they have it, yet here they are.
All these complications are further complicated by an incoming president who neither respects the law nor obeys it, and to whom the truth is simply a botheration and unnecessary to recognize.
The problem for those who may be prosecuted by the incoming Trump administration will be the cost of mounting a legal defense. Rather than granting preemptive pardons, perhaps a fund could be set up and an administrator named so money would be made available for defense lawyers for those wrongly accused.
On the right track Mina. And Maureen such bad faith litigation tactics are subject to Anti-SLAPP laws in many states across the Country with decades long California case law that I have successfully used on 5 occasions & once on Appeal. A successful Anti-SLAPP motion rewards the movant with an award of your attorney fees & costs pinned on the Bad Guys.
Not to mention quasi-criminal contempt motions in Court & other Fight Back Tools.
I knew a lawyer once who called cops whenever she disliked what people did, then laughed and said she'd let them go to the trouble and expense of getting a lawyer and then she'd drop the charge once it got to court. They figured out quite quickly who she was.
Okay, I’m a bit stupid here, but what about Jack Smith? Should he not have a preemtive pardon? Dr. Fauci? That incoming bastard is going to go after them and so many others.
Although the question of whether a pardon imputes at least a tacit admission of guilt is legally unsettled, that can certainly be the real world perception of it --- a downside for any public figure. This idea is what is probably behind Adam Schiff's description of a potential preemptive pardon as "defensive" in reportedly not wanting one. There is also the practical consideration (depending on an individual's situation or history) that the broader the pardon, the narrower the right or privilege against self-incrimination (i.e. "taking the Fifth"). The sad reality is, under present circumstances and with continuing threats of retribution, harassment would really be the point, and that would almost certainly take place in one form or another --- e.g. legal or congressional proceedings --- even with a preemptive pardon. Like the frivolous voter fraud lawsuits, the goal would be to lend some shabby legitimacy to malicious attacks via the reflected legitimacy of the courts or congress, with almost certain failure irrelevant in the scheme of things. Having those targeted spend their lives and funds in defending themselves is all that really matters. Simply more red meat for the slavering cult.
True. But pre-emptive pardons would add a significant defensive layer to the process. The Supreme Court is not likely to negate pardons, even given their notorious corruption. Lay down the pardons like land mines. Let Trump blow himself up on them. The people will be on the streets. Of that I am certain.
Not the point. The issue is its willingness to consider the extent of presidential pardon power. Who, in their right mind, thought it would take up presidential criminal immunity and rule the way it did? Blanket, preemptive pardons have never been tested in court and I would put nothing past this activist Court. It may, in fact, rule that they are within the authority granted by the Constitution but by that time, the ultimate goal of harassment will likely have been achieved.
True. But once Trump starts his retribution campaign, not to mention mass deportations and concentration camps, there will -- at last -- be real pushback in the halls of government and on the streets of America. It will be magnitudes worse than Kent State because Trump will declare martial law. The people will raise millions of dollars for the defense of those being 'harassed'. It will be very ugly. But there's no getting around it. We are dealing with an insane fascist dictator bankrolled by billionaires and abetted by a corrupt Supreme Court, all of whom are drowning in stupidity.
This is why we must find a way to make clear to most GOPers that allowing this persecution/prosecution puts them at risk too. There are some who will pursue it anyway (Comer, Jordan, etc) but if they have more limited support because those who were previously in Trump's good graces have educated the educable, they won't get very far.
Joyce, I share your optimism (warily...), but what concerns me are the outliers, of which there are far too many --- the MAGA-kazes, I call them, who would just assume blow it all up, themselves included. We've seen what an ideologue AG like Barr is willing to try and can accomplish. I'm reminded of that last scene in "White Heat," where James Cagney as the psycho gang leader "Cody" Jarrett is on a gas storage tank surrounded by police, is shot and shouts, "Made it ma! Top of the world!" before firing into the tank and blowing himself up.
I confess that my "optimism" varies daily. I'm trying to establish a place of thoughtfulness and wisdom in a head that is virtually exploding in rage and disgust. Sometimes I seek that quiet spot, but as I read varied news sources, I can't help but pray that Biden's pardons any and all brave members of the J6 Select Committee as well as the journalists (like JL) who bravely speak truth to his lies. But that's the point isn't it. Keep us unbalanced until we lose hope. Well, for today, I am making plans to march in DC on Jan 18 and find that sense of solidarity with other veterans in resistance.
It's gonna be a long 2 years, but we have to be ready for 2026 to take back Congress.
"White Heat" is a great movie and the reference is pretty satisfying when I put Trump in Jarrett's shoes, but Trumpy would only be able to cry "They tried to get me, ma. I'll show 'em who's the best and most bigly."
Even if pardons are issued why do we think that Trump would honor them? If he owns the FBI and DOJ, then what would keep him from ignoring them? Congress? The Supreme Court? There is no branch of government that he has not corrupted.
Good point. The only way for Trump to prosecute someone with a pardon is with the concurrance of the Supreme Court. That is a problem given today's court. But it is very unlikely that even those corrupt justices would invalidate legitimate pardons. After all, they invented presidential immunity. In any case, the public outrage would lead to the invocation of the insurrection act and the military gunning down of thousands of US citizens (I assure you this will be far worse than Kent State). That is a possibility, of course. But let's see if the Inquisitors are willing to go that far. This shows the true nature of our dilemma. It is just as real as Nazi Germany. Let us not kid ourselves.
Joyce, I started of thinking that Biden should absolutely issue pardons to anyone likely to be targeted by the incoming administration. By the end of this piece you had convinced me otherwise. That’s testament to the worth of your work. Thank you.
I for one will stop contributions to any and all organizations and candidates if the need for legal defense of anti-trump actors becomes necessary. Trump is a traitor who should be behind bars. He is a disqualified president-elect. He never should have been on the ballot in the first place. This fight will get very dirty. I'm ready for it. And so are you.
Exactly. Motions based on unfounded accusations should be dismissed with prejudice. And those responsible for attempting to exact that revenge should be held liable for all expenses incurred by the accused. And their professional qualifications should be put into question.
Allowing the MAGA crew even a whiff of a chance to say that a blanket pardon proves that all the threatened people are guilty of anything is unacceptable. I hope that someone sets up a war chest fund that will aid anyone who is targeted by the Trump administration for political revenge. I would gladly donate to such a fund. I also hope that, if any revenge investigations come up, there is a way to keep track of how much federal money is being spent on them. A well-promoted tally counter, showing up everywhere and often, would show everyone how willing Trump & his cronies are to waste our tax dollars.
Again, after nearly a decade of this nonsense, Democrats (and we) should know by now that MAGA doesn’t feel bound by laws, ethics, facts or anything bothersome. They’ll howl about any last minute random musings by Trump. And, as noted above, will simply ignore any preemptive pardons.
Trump himself was given a preemptive pardon from prosecution by the Supreme Court -Absolute immunity! But, he has always been given preferential treatment!
I agree on the fact that pardons should not exist in any normal democracy.
I have to say, I would love to see the courageous Cassidy Hutchinson be protected.
For a young woman to have gone through a process of finally not backing down shows such extraordinary courage that the idea she could be now prosecuted, I find horrific.
Very true. Carter's brilliant amnesty of Vietnam draft evaders was also an acknowledgement that a corrupt US government waged a criminal, mindless war. Let Trump come after those draft dodgers still alive and test Carter's amnesty. He would have to include himself in the round-up. If he wants to prosecute today's traitors, he should begin with himself.
It is a sad state of affairs that this country is so messed up that we even have to run these scenarios. None of this is about what’s good for the country or the honest, hard working people that make this country great. It’s all about protecting corruption and seeking retribution. It’s worse than school yard bullies and I don’t know how we’ll ever pull ourselves out of this and be a functioning, polite society with ethics and humanity.
Thank you Sharon for writing what I’ve tried to say for the last 30 minutes, writing, deleting, trying again. I’m so disgusted by the very idea of those in govt once again trying to placate a traitor that I can’t think straight.
As in the Watergate era, I loathe the idea of the main perpetrator getting off scot-free or pardoned while others serve time (Michael Cohen) and suffer otherwise, for doing the job they were hired to do.
As I watched the wonderful Notre Dame Reborn footage from Paris last night, the orange toad looked so out of place. Bent over and scowling like the Hunchback of Notre Dame. Otherwise, the whole effort by France and the world to renew the cathedral was very inspiring and uplifting. I loved that our current First Lady and her daughter arrived after he did. He wanted that privilege!
It was nauseating to see Trump greeting Macron on this day in Paris.
Check out this explanation of Macron manipulating tRump:
https://open.substack.com/pub/meidastouch/p/trumps-micro-stick-is-embarrassingand?r=apy04&utm_medium=ios
Another one of these articles that basically says let's watch him dig his own grave. As if the wrongs can be righted if/when the good guys can get power back. I fear the damage he will do (and is already doing and what he has already done), some of it at least, is not fixable. It has and will ratchet down our status as the world leader, indefinitely. And vitally important things like climate change - finally doom us for good. I believe we cannot sit idly by and watch his train wreck develop. We have to fight him every step of the way.
"Some Sun Tzu quotes come to mind here, like:
• “Never interrupt your opponent while he is in the middle of making a mistake.”
• “The greatest victory is that which requires no battle.”
• “If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him.”
The art of war, indeed. Watching for China's opponent downfall.
MARVELOUS ARTICLE!
The same handshake where he pulls someone towards him. As for kissing Mme Macron, ugh!
Agreed!
It was enough to make a bluebottle vomit.
Wasn't it MACRON greeting trump? After all, if IS Macron's country! (Did you see trump's attempt to break Macron's arm?)
Yes, it is Macron’s country and I assume he invited Trump. And, yes, I saw Trump’s attempt to break Macron’s arm. Like a lot of Trump’s behavior, it reminds me of what a childish bully would do on a schoolyard somewhere.
Having just recently read Hugo’s book I say Quasimodo was a very sympathetic character whereas Trump definitely not.
Jimmy Kimmel called tfg Quasidodo. Of course, tfg has never heard of Victor Hugo.
Kimmel probably didn’t read the book either. But it was a good for a laugh.
Sally, thanks for saying what I was thinking. His presence spoiled the whole thing for me.
Remember, s.v.p., that, also under Burdick, the person who accepts a pardon admits culpability, at least for evident or proven culpability. This idea may not apply to group pardons that act more like clemency or amnesty.
This is worse than Watergate. FBI spying on a political campaign. FBI forging
documents to get FISA warrants. The FBI leaking misinformation to the press (Steele dossier). Corrupt investigators Peter Strozk and Lisa Page.
The DOJ weaponizing the legal system.
Yes I hope everyone that committed a crime is prosecuted.
I assume you believe in the RULE of law too?
Or are you just another leftist phony?
I think you’re in the wrong discussion and should go elsewhere to peddle your victimhood claims.
Nixon got his pardon and all it got this country was more corruption.
Are you suggesting that offering parsons to people who have been threatened by name is "placating"?
I see no answer to my question
Parsons=pardons
What we actually need is total absolution for our "sins." Trump included.
I was in a discussion yesterday whether Biden should pardon Trump and people like Eastman. I don't think Trump would offer a quid pro quo.
As I've said previously, threats to political figures may/may not be crimes, state and federal. I'm old and in the way, but if I were a DA like Fani Willis who was threatened, I'd take it to a grand jury.
"What we actually need is total absolution for our 'sins.' Trump included. I was in a discussion yesterday whether Biden should pardon Trump and people like Eastman. I DON'T THINK Trump would offer a quid pro quo." I've read this opinion in a number of places, but it makes absolutely no sense to me. If the orange sadist WON'T offer a quid pro quo, why in the world should Biden pardon him?! I hope you'll explain why this is a reasonable thing to do.
Plus how do you enforce a quid pro quo? Trump is a notorious liar. I wouldnʻt believe anything he agreed to, even if he put it in writing and swore on a bag of Big Macs. Heʻs notorious for stiffing contractors (who presumably had contracts).
Pardoning T would be the biggest mistake. First of all, T says he hasn't done anything wrong. Second he will continue to commit crimes and hurt people. Of all people... he should NEVER be pardoned. I think Biden is too smart to do that.
Exactly!
I concur Sharon on all your points. However, the professor mentioned about 100 names targeted by Wreck II. Kash Patel, Bannon & others have targeted about 150 names.
Congressional Representatives (Liz & Adam)have built-in legislative immunities from arrest even "questioning". As Professor Vance noted some criminal (not) or civil actions may be subject to a prompt Motion to Dismiss. But, lives & families will be disrupted. Lost time & costs will be incurred.
*Federal and/or state litigators must aggressively defend the ALL persons private (Dr. Fauci) & public defendants such witnesses from any disruption to their lives & families.*
This Weekend I answered an ABA Survey sent to Active to Members about proposed ABA action programs for 2025. There are many different ways to stop any autocratic attacks, from "Go Fund Them" & their lawyer fees, to organizing volunteer pro bono Litigation Teams, to the clever triggering of defense liability policies & statutory indemnity law to protect specific individuals.
Definitely more later.
Pro-bono litigation teams, Yes!
So, what's the problem. If Biden pardon a large group of people preemptively like say all election officials and they choose not to accept the pardon, where is the harm?
After the court grants a dismissal or the grand jury chooses not to indict, the ABA or other entities like the ACLU should immediately file a malicious prosecution case, tortious interference and/or a defamation case against Trump personally.
Thank you Gary; I hope "all election officials" includes me. I was accepted for that role in a CA County last November but, the CA County Registrar of Voters did not have to use me on Election Day - they had too many volunteers.
Let's look at your list of questions & my responses in the form of questions & other stuff:
1. "the Court grants a dismissal" -- Sure but, who specifically represents the plaintiff(s) & pays for the litigation and/or response to a bad faith appeal?
2. "the grand jury refuses to indict" -- who handles aggressive efforts to get identity of the prosecutor & 30-40 or so grand jurors? What about the judge & court personnel who handled the lawful proceedings?
One example, the jury foreperson is outed, harassed, pranked or family members are harassed or homes are invaded like Ruby & Shaye? That's where statutory indemnity rights & tort law come-in among other important legal options.
Fortunately, R&S had superb counsel who even chased the Perp into bankruptcy & recovered the Perp's classic Mercedes once owned by Lauren Bacall real $fortunate$ for R&S.
How many hours of litigators' work & research attorneys & staff did R&S deploy?
I've been there for CA families so the answer is many hours not 24/7 only 18/7.
3. "the ABA or other entities like the ACLU should immediately ...". I agree; I am an active ABA Member. ACLU? I agree again so I joined 3 months ago. The ACLU has a wide in all-states footprint & can handle state court and or Federal proceedings.
The ACLU needs donations & I am supporting that work which involves among many other legal tasks preparing for purported "mass deportations" of "illegals". Does that include their family members and/or children lawfully in a group who are already citizens of the United States? A family separation redux?
What about tortious interference or other torts like defamation? Gary, now you are getting very closes to the real work ... I'm gonna say it ... yes, yes, here it comes, "the best defense is a good offense".
This is where it gets real interesting & requires able counsel. In California we have our own state constitutional right of privacy on which plaintiffs & appellate courts have been generating new torts to meet the new 2024-25 tortious conduct. Lots of states & many developing legal remedies. The CA Legislature is in Special Session now.
Hey, first week in law school I learned, the law is alive just like in good old common law England back in the 11th Century. But, back then you had to walk or buggy to an organized group of "writ writers". The writs, "talking paper" required you use the exact words in an exact order. The gentry had to pay.
Any further questions? No -- good.
Please read Proser on Torts start-to-finish which by the way is an excellent history book that is still being written. There will be a test on 1/20/25 - a test for us all.
Thank you. (I always scroll to find your comments 😉) I have recently rejoined ACLU.
🙏
You’re my hero, Bryan, but you must know that. Have been giving $ here and there to ACLU and SPLC for umpteen years. We must fight “fire with fire”! The retribution guy won’t be around forever. Look at Assad.
Me too. But I suspect they shared my contact information with some other groups because shortly after I joined I started receiving texts and calls from several PACs. I never give to PACs because you never really know who they support.
Wow!! Thanks so much for that comment. Very insightful.
I'm still not too old to learn new things.
Thank you for all this. I’m not a lawyer and am learning far more than my job has helped me learn in areas of law unknown to me.
Only recently have Substacks and articles begun to explain both the economic contributions of immigrants in the US - those with and without documents including those with DACA and TPS standing, those with green cards - and the guess of costs to round up*, put in detention camps, and deport IF they can be deported. None of this was well addressed during the Pres campaign. If on that and on the issue of who this crowd of incoming punishers decides to prosecute the human and humane issues can’t move voters and others to act responsibly, will the economic hit of all the potential litigation on top of deportation make any sense?
*Today I saw Tom Stoppard’s “Leopoldstadt” (at DC Shakespeare Theatre.) In it is a scene where a Black Shirt comes to the home of those targeted for the Camps. In addition to that horror, I envisioned 1/20/25 and beyond, finding my gut in greater knots.
For those who cannot be deported, Kristi Noem has a gravel pit. Unless they are fit for an arbeitslager.
Tim Snyder's Bloodlands shows how this progresses. Remember, the original plan was to send the Jews to Madagascar.
Should have read your comment first. I don’t think “civilians” can fathom how costly something like this can be.
I agree with some of what you say but imagine all the good that could be done in this country if we weren’t so busy funneling money to lawyers and other participants for retribution simply because someone loses an election, or because a crime is investigated. If Trump were truly innocent let him defend himself in a court of law. Claiming to be the party of law and order while refusing to face that legal scrutiny is a clear indication you think you’re above the law. If action would have been taken and these ridiculous delays, like going after Fani for having a meal with a coworker, would have been slapped down as frivolous we might have seen accountability. Even the New York cases that kept having sentences delayed show that this country makes excuses to ignore the law and give special privileges to certain people. We are a banana republic.
"refusing to face that legal scrutiny is a clear indication you think you’re above the law." I would add, or know you are guilty.
Sadly, Sharon, he doesn't think he is above the law anymore. He KNOWS it.
Exactly right L_U & it’s thanks to his SCOTUS lapdogs.
💯 believe that Trump targets MUST be protected from dirty politics. This may seem an extreme position however taking preemptive measures to protect these individuals & their families is the least we can do despite what MAGA thinks. This is beyond politics - it’s a matter of saving lives from persecution just bc they were brave enough to stand up for truth & decency, for democracy itself.
This is a no-holes-barred Era!!!! Manners are out the window. Goodwill and politeness are a thing of the past. maybe, again someday, maybe… We must protect the brave and those who saved lives… for example, Dr. Anthony Fauci. All of those who tried to preserve our democracy need to be protected. Time is ticking!!! Please, President Biden, continue to appoint federal judges and PARDON PARDON PARDON…. The orange blunder pardoned everyone from relatives to ophthalmologists with the last set of pardons when he came into his reign-check it out! It’s our time! Gosh, darn it, it’s our time! It’s a New World!!! Time to step up to the plate! Now, I need another cup of coffee!
Totally agree Sharon. Trump and his minions are corrupt, liars, cheats and all manner of nasty people. They won’t think twice about ruining people’s lives. Why does this administration always have to rake the “high road” when the minions always take the lowest road they can find?
Sharon - I agree !!
I think about this same thing, there's no talk about moving forward,or any hints or mention of interesting,exciting plans for a better future for our country,just whiny crybabies bawling like calves about revenge and getting even for some perceived slight,mostly blown out of proportion to its actual reality.None of these asshats have ever mentioned a single goddamned syllable about working for anyone other than themselves and their enrichment,at the expense of people like you and me,and our families,coworkers,neighbors and communities.There isn't squat even being remotely considered that would benefit any of us.
The nitwits who think any of this idiocy will benefit them in the slightest,are in for a sobering shock.They are the absolute furthest thing from these people's minds.As we all are,or more exactly, aren't.We matter like ants on the windowsill,and just as expendable as those ants are.
I hope these idiots are really happy now.That'll be changing really soon.That happiness will soon be a faraway,distant memory.Too bad,so sad...
One question that crosses my mind: ¿is there a way for mega-M.A.G.A. states like Tejas and Flourida to bring charges or conduct harassment for supposed influence peddling if any of the products of companies from China, Ukraine, etc. -- and allegedly in cahoots with President Biden's son or brother -- had sales in those states? An interesting discussion of this subject from this morning. https://www.c-span.org/video/?540372-3/kimberly-wehle-presidents-pardon-power
We got through the Great Civil War; we got through the Great Depression; we got through a seemingly existential two-front war; we got through Watergate. We will get through this authoritarian long on the waste and short, no WASTed, in the mind.
Is this a joke? 4 years of lawfare and you are whining about Trump?
You don't get to ruthlessly use the legal system against your opponents and then demand
pardons.
Fani Willis ran for public office on prosecuting Trump
Letitica James ran for public office on prosecuting Trump
Alvin Bragg ran for public office on prosecuting Trump
THe DOJ send 2nd in command to run NY prosecution
FBI spied on Trump campaign
FBI forged documents to get FISA warrants
and on and on.....
If you broke the law you deserve to be prosecuted.
NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW - Is a leftist lie. It only applies to Republicans
never to Democrats. Just ask Joe and Hunter Biden.
BTW why a blanket pardon all the way back to 2014? Obviously because Hunter
has legal exposure and probably Joe too.
I didn’t demand any pardons. Every one of those people ran for office to prosecute all criminals. Show me one case where Trump went to court and presented anything indicating he was innocent. The lawfare and weaponization is all on the Republicans side. I have NEVER seen such a spectacle as elected officials put on in New York. What a circus.
The most horrific part of all this is you’re out here crying foul and pretending Trump can do no wrong while absolutely ignoring the risk to our nation security while the greedy bastard sells every secret he can get his hands on. He refused to go to court and show he had a right to steal those secrets.
What will you do when the next 9/11 knocks on your door.?Grow up, be a man, quit being a victim and sycophant to the mob.
Go find a substacker that will pander to you and your PAB.
The lawfare is on the Republican side? You are delusional.
The Democrats are in power in case you are asleep.
The NY trial was classic lawfare. They used an expired misdamenor
and cobbled it together with another to get a felony? Its a joke.
Then you get a judge who’s daughter is a DNC fundraiser and is a party activist. Then the lead prosecutor is imported from the Biden DOJ. Its a farce.
But its one of the reasons Trump won. Only Banana republics prosecute their political opponents.
The Trump case
Your profile says “reviving intellectual honesty”. You would first have to find some intellect and honesty. Like I said go elsewhere to peddle your i gained victimhood.
Don’t waste time with this guy.
Far worse...
Thank you for re-focusing the issue on Trump, and his creation of this unprecedented government, where it belongs.
President Biden: I’ve Decided to Pardon Every American Citizen
(And keep the Sleeze-bag Unstable Vicious Con-man Second Rate Mafia Wannabe About to Enter the White House From Persecuting Americans
Bill Katz
Dec 02, 2024
A Message from the President:
I have decided to first pardon my son, Hunter Biden, for being unfairly singled out for prosecution. He did wrong. He was addicted to drugs. He didn’t pay his taxes and he purchased a gun. He paid for his crimes. Yet my political distractors want to punish me by punishing him.
I therefore as your president, on this day, with equality for all, and determined to prevent the jackass from selective persecution, have decided to issue a blanket pardon to every American WITH THE ONE EXCEPTION BEINGTHE SUB HIMAN HIMSELF, DONALD J TRUMP. This blanket pardon will prevent the incoming incompetent sleeze-bag unstable vicious conman second rate mafia wannabe about to enter the pristine White House and infect it with his disease called Trump Syndrome or TS for short from prosecuting innocent Americans.
(I fixed it addressing a comment made about pardoning.)
Bravo!!!!!
There! You fixed it! :D
Doesn’t a blanket pardon include the moron himself? I sure don’t want him pardoned for anything or any reason
SCOTUS already gave the FELON a blanket pardon for past and future crimes.
True that, I forgot. That ranks even above Citizens United as the worst SCOTUS decision sinceDred Scott
I had forgotten until I read it today that Jimmy Carter issued blanket pardons to Vietnam War draft dodgers, although I recalled it after I was reminded. My concern for not issuing pardons, however flawed the idea is and however unlikely revenge prosecutions are to succeed is that those people will rack up legal fees they should not have to pay to defend themselves. I’m not sure what the right answer is here but I recalled from Cassidy Hutchinson’s testimony that she initially took a lawyer paid for by Trump or his allies and eventually managed to get pro bono services from someone else with help. Not all those Trump may go after can afford an attorney nor should they have to spend money even if they have it, yet here they are.
And spending our tax money to investigate and prosecute the “ enemies “ while cutting programs that benefit us
That's the kicker for me
One might wonder what the bar associations across the country are thinking on the question of organizing pro bono representation.
All these complications are further complicated by an incoming president who neither respects the law nor obeys it, and to whom the truth is simply a botheration and unnecessary to recognize.
And who gets away with that clear hatred of everything American, so much so that we make him President!?
The problem for those who may be prosecuted by the incoming Trump administration will be the cost of mounting a legal defense. Rather than granting preemptive pardons, perhaps a fund could be set up and an administrator named so money would be made available for defense lawyers for those wrongly accused.
On the right track Mina. And Maureen such bad faith litigation tactics are subject to Anti-SLAPP laws in many states across the Country with decades long California case law that I have successfully used on 5 occasions & once on Appeal. A successful Anti-SLAPP motion rewards the movant with an award of your attorney fees & costs pinned on the Bad Guys.
Not to mention quasi-criminal contempt motions in Court & other Fight Back Tools.
I knew a lawyer once who called cops whenever she disliked what people did, then laughed and said she'd let them go to the trouble and expense of getting a lawyer and then she'd drop the charge once it got to court. They figured out quite quickly who she was.
Great idea!
Okay, I’m a bit stupid here, but what about Jack Smith? Should he not have a preemtive pardon? Dr. Fauci? That incoming bastard is going to go after them and so many others.
LTC Vindman.
And his twin, now a member of Congress.
Although the question of whether a pardon imputes at least a tacit admission of guilt is legally unsettled, that can certainly be the real world perception of it --- a downside for any public figure. This idea is what is probably behind Adam Schiff's description of a potential preemptive pardon as "defensive" in reportedly not wanting one. There is also the practical consideration (depending on an individual's situation or history) that the broader the pardon, the narrower the right or privilege against self-incrimination (i.e. "taking the Fifth"). The sad reality is, under present circumstances and with continuing threats of retribution, harassment would really be the point, and that would almost certainly take place in one form or another --- e.g. legal or congressional proceedings --- even with a preemptive pardon. Like the frivolous voter fraud lawsuits, the goal would be to lend some shabby legitimacy to malicious attacks via the reflected legitimacy of the courts or congress, with almost certain failure irrelevant in the scheme of things. Having those targeted spend their lives and funds in defending themselves is all that really matters. Simply more red meat for the slavering cult.
A good description of the metaphorical Beast with many heads.
Agreed. The Trump adminstration would not care one bit about “pre-emptive” pardons.
True. But pre-emptive pardons would add a significant defensive layer to the process. The Supreme Court is not likely to negate pardons, even given their notorious corruption. Lay down the pardons like land mines. Let Trump blow himself up on them. The people will be on the streets. Of that I am certain.
This Supreme Court will not negate an “official act “ for which immunity has already been granted.
Not the point. The issue is its willingness to consider the extent of presidential pardon power. Who, in their right mind, thought it would take up presidential criminal immunity and rule the way it did? Blanket, preemptive pardons have never been tested in court and I would put nothing past this activist Court. It may, in fact, rule that they are within the authority granted by the Constitution but by that time, the ultimate goal of harassment will likely have been achieved.
True. But once Trump starts his retribution campaign, not to mention mass deportations and concentration camps, there will -- at last -- be real pushback in the halls of government and on the streets of America. It will be magnitudes worse than Kent State because Trump will declare martial law. The people will raise millions of dollars for the defense of those being 'harassed'. It will be very ugly. But there's no getting around it. We are dealing with an insane fascist dictator bankrolled by billionaires and abetted by a corrupt Supreme Court, all of whom are drowning in stupidity.
And he'll find a way to get them even if they're pardoned. We're in for a helluva ride. I hope we survive it.
This is why we must find a way to make clear to most GOPers that allowing this persecution/prosecution puts them at risk too. There are some who will pursue it anyway (Comer, Jordan, etc) but if they have more limited support because those who were previously in Trump's good graces have educated the educable, they won't get very far.
Joyce, I share your optimism (warily...), but what concerns me are the outliers, of which there are far too many --- the MAGA-kazes, I call them, who would just assume blow it all up, themselves included. We've seen what an ideologue AG like Barr is willing to try and can accomplish. I'm reminded of that last scene in "White Heat," where James Cagney as the psycho gang leader "Cody" Jarrett is on a gas storage tank surrounded by police, is shot and shouts, "Made it ma! Top of the world!" before firing into the tank and blowing himself up.
I confess that my "optimism" varies daily. I'm trying to establish a place of thoughtfulness and wisdom in a head that is virtually exploding in rage and disgust. Sometimes I seek that quiet spot, but as I read varied news sources, I can't help but pray that Biden's pardons any and all brave members of the J6 Select Committee as well as the journalists (like JL) who bravely speak truth to his lies. But that's the point isn't it. Keep us unbalanced until we lose hope. Well, for today, I am making plans to march in DC on Jan 18 and find that sense of solidarity with other veterans in resistance.
It's gonna be a long 2 years, but we have to be ready for 2026 to take back Congress.
"White Heat" is a great movie and the reference is pretty satisfying when I put Trump in Jarrett's shoes, but Trumpy would only be able to cry "They tried to get me, ma. I'll show 'em who's the best and most bigly."
Even if pardons are issued why do we think that Trump would honor them? If he owns the FBI and DOJ, then what would keep him from ignoring them? Congress? The Supreme Court? There is no branch of government that he has not corrupted.
Good point. The only way for Trump to prosecute someone with a pardon is with the concurrance of the Supreme Court. That is a problem given today's court. But it is very unlikely that even those corrupt justices would invalidate legitimate pardons. After all, they invented presidential immunity. In any case, the public outrage would lead to the invocation of the insurrection act and the military gunning down of thousands of US citizens (I assure you this will be far worse than Kent State). That is a possibility, of course. But let's see if the Inquisitors are willing to go that far. This shows the true nature of our dilemma. It is just as real as Nazi Germany. Let us not kid ourselves.
💯💯💯💯💯
Joyce, I started of thinking that Biden should absolutely issue pardons to anyone likely to be targeted by the incoming administration. By the end of this piece you had convinced me otherwise. That’s testament to the worth of your work. Thank you.
Pardons won't stop harassment. The idea of a fund to cover legal fees is better.
Allen, who will have any money to share?
I for one will stop contributions to any and all organizations and candidates if the need for legal defense of anti-trump actors becomes necessary. Trump is a traitor who should be behind bars. He is a disqualified president-elect. He never should have been on the ballot in the first place. This fight will get very dirty. I'm ready for it. And so are you.
Good question.
> "Using the criminal justice system for political revenge...."
....ought to be actionable in civil court.
Exactly. Motions based on unfounded accusations should be dismissed with prejudice. And those responsible for attempting to exact that revenge should be held liable for all expenses incurred by the accused. And their professional qualifications should be put into question.
Allowing the MAGA crew even a whiff of a chance to say that a blanket pardon proves that all the threatened people are guilty of anything is unacceptable. I hope that someone sets up a war chest fund that will aid anyone who is targeted by the Trump administration for political revenge. I would gladly donate to such a fund. I also hope that, if any revenge investigations come up, there is a way to keep track of how much federal money is being spent on them. A well-promoted tally counter, showing up everywhere and often, would show everyone how willing Trump & his cronies are to waste our tax dollars.
Again, after nearly a decade of this nonsense, Democrats (and we) should know by now that MAGA doesn’t feel bound by laws, ethics, facts or anything bothersome. They’ll howl about any last minute random musings by Trump. And, as noted above, will simply ignore any preemptive pardons.
Trump himself was given a preemptive pardon from prosecution by the Supreme Court -Absolute immunity! But, he has always been given preferential treatment!
Bought and paid for by the real problem we face (in my opinion). Drumpf is a pawn in a horrible ponzi scheme and we are all victims.
I agree on the fact that pardons should not exist in any normal democracy.
I have to say, I would love to see the courageous Cassidy Hutchinson be protected.
For a young woman to have gone through a process of finally not backing down shows such extraordinary courage that the idea she could be now prosecuted, I find horrific.
Joyce. The draft evaders had in fact broken the law. The pardons made sense.
Very true. Carter's brilliant amnesty of Vietnam draft evaders was also an acknowledgement that a corrupt US government waged a criminal, mindless war. Let Trump come after those draft dodgers still alive and test Carter's amnesty. He would have to include himself in the round-up. If he wants to prosecute today's traitors, he should begin with himself.