It’s easy to understand why minority students would be up in arms over the Supreme Court’s decision to end affirmative action, while permitting practices like legacy-based admissions to continue.
I didn’t know you are from LA, and East LA at that.
For those who don’t know, Joyce is delicately making the point that she came up via a part of our country that is heavily minority majority, labors under gang influence, and struggles/d thru underinvestment.
I had no idea that the number of legacy/donor kids was that high at Harvard. It gives pause to the value of a Harvard diploma. The irony is that large donors provide the school with ample donations that could fund scholarships for the students who can't afford the Harvard tuition, but are likely much more qualified. To boot, Harvard has an endowment of over $50 billion. As the wealthiest university in the world, they can afford to give "full rides" to any student that needs the financial support.
Just our own observations of the serious lack of intellectual curiosity, character, commonsense and moral precepts of the many Ivy League graduates* who have been elected and infest our halls of Congress, might give us all a pretty good idea of the value of a Harvard or Yale degree.
*Legacies and scions of wealthy donors especially--looking at you, Dubya and Jared Kushner.
I was a resident at Harvard and many of the professors were from the University of CA (public) system. It was a great experience but not particularly unique. I took my basic English class at UCLA in a class of 400 students with only a graduate student as my access for help. I have taken classes at community colleges (Long Beach and Eureka) and have always felt those were some of the most challenging, transforming, and small classes I have taken. I have always felt the "Ivy League" schools are overblown and over-favored with many students who seem more entitled than qualified. This often applies to the faculty as well; maybe famous but not necessarily the best teachers.
Spread the word, T.L! And don't forget Ted et al. The ILL (Ivy League Losers) club has been heavily influenced by right wing groups who have influenced the curriculum with endowed chairs and departments, too. Only the MAGAs are impressed with their credentials. Another way of looking at the issue is to shine light on the foundations and think tanks which shuffle the excess $billions from oligarchs' tax obligations to so-called "public good."
I didn't mention Rafe Cruz or DeSantis because--as far as I know--neither of them were legacies or children of donors; although Rafe might have benefited from Affirmative action admissions. If so, he is in solidarity with Clarence Thomas in saying, "Hey I got mine: the rest of you all can get lost." to any who wished to follow in their footsteps.
In our House and Senate there are 6 Senators who have Ivy League degrees; and among the Representatives there are 21 Ivy Leaguers, 15 from Harvard and 6 from Yale. Stanford, UCLA and UCB can also offer a goodly contingent of 21 grads; 11 Stanford grads and 10 from the University of California (L/A and Berkeley campuses).
Maybe we should start electing trade school grads and get some decent people with decent ethics and commonsense into the Halls of the Peoples Government!
And there was Eddie Beard the house painter from RI who served three terms in the US House of Representatives - with honor. His memory blesses all of us. L&B&L
Just guessing, but in being a reader/commenter on Civil Discourse probably means you and your friends are all liberals/progressives/Dems or left centrist leaning folk. The Ivy leaguers who are ethically challenged seem to be (painting with a brad brush--I know) rightwingers (can't dignify them with the handle of "Republicans" or "conservatives" since they are not either.
in Congress who do not demonstrate a sense of fairness in their empty speeches toward minority classes of their constituents. They took an oath to uphold the Constitution but instead become con artists for the rich and powerful.
Ivy universities, with more money than God, do not want to spend much from their endowments; they are ultra-conservative in their spending. They raise a lot of money, but do not want to increase the amount spent on scholarships. They want donors to fund scholarships directly and donors like their names on scholarships. Endowments are handled in a very complex way and usually do not earn top interest rates, but they provide the university with a lot of financial power. As far as athletics, no school or university has in its mission statement to produce a winning sports team, yet they spend a lot of money (and taxpayer money for state schools and universities) on sports. Top coaches are paid way more than top faculty and donations for sports stay in sports; they don't help the academic mission and some donors are encouraged to donate to the sports team instead of towards academics.
I must plead guilty to a deep feeling of glee at your closing comment:
"If Florida Governor Ron DeSantis has been upset about the use of critical race theory to explain discrimination in the legal system, just think about how this is going to set him off!"
"Stamp his feet" makes me think of Rumplestiltskin, who IIRC was so furious at being thwarted that he stamped his foot so hard he tore himself in two and disappeared down a deep, deep hole. I was already having ghoulish guillotine fantasies about certain public figures. Rumplestiltskin (Trumplestiltskin?) has now been added to the repertoire.
Thank you, Joyce, for breaking this down to the nitty gritty. I feel a little more hopeful that these attorneys will prevail. Roberts and his illegitimate court jesters’ rulings must be overturned. I certainly hope these lawmakers make them sweat. Must fight fire with fire!
By the way, loved that you referenced your husband’s tweet!
I’m thinking of Justice Elena Kagan’s dissent as explained by Lawrence O’Donnell this evening 7-5-23 about her crisis of faith with the Supreme Court. It was an extremely moving segment.
The non revenue sports cited here where also a key strategy for the Varsity Blues scam. Fake polo players, big donations equal admission. People of average means, who work two jobs, whose kids work hard, no matter what race are behind the eight ball in these situations. Access to high quality college level education changes lives and the oligarchs have closed the door that allows those without means to lift themselves and their heirs to another level. We are at the end of a 40 year cycle to reverse the advances that have been implemented during my lifetime. We are facing a have / have not world but one where everyone is heavily armed.
Special consideration deserves special recognition. Time to put a foot note on the diploma along with the GPA and a WARNING LABEL such as “Do not trust. May not be competent.”
I always go back to this: if the law doesn't permit society to work to remedy and cure the injuries of historic white supremacy and class exploitation, there's something wrong with the law -- not the attempts to heal the damage, however fumbling and awkward.
If I can’t be forced to utilize my free speech against my religious beliefs (303 Creative), and money is speech (Citizens United), then Quakers can withhold paying taxes to support wars, right?
The college and private education system is a mess. Politicians like desantis are making a mess of the public education system in Florida as well, and other states seem to be following suit.
Getting an Ivy league education isn't all it's cracked up to be. Just look at the crazy right-wing politicians who have Harvard degrees. And who can afford one?
I got my ADN at a community college. It was a first rate nursing program that was tough to pass, but I cherish what I learned, the people I went to classes with, and the Professors who taught there. The student body was diverse, and there was an atmosphere of inclusion.
But I agree that "legacy admissions" are a form of discrimination to others who don't fall into that category. Good luck to those who are fighting against it.
Congrats on your career in nursing, and your excellent education at a community college! My basic RN training was as a BSN in a Big Ten school, but my clinical skills and judgement upon graduation didn't hold a candle (ha- a picture of Florence Nightingale just popped into my mind) to the new ADN nurses I worked with after graduation. I learned on the job (sorry patients of 1975), and later completed my MSN and taught BSN completion at Univ of Mich for ADN students - again, so impressed with these nurses' skills, competence, intelligence, insights... The ADN programs are incredibly good. And nursing is the most challenging undergraduate program at any school.
Thanks for your comment, and I must say, I admire you for continuing your education and then teaching! I was a single parent at the time, and was unable to continue in school, but if I could, I would have pursued teaching. Teachers are BETTER than sliced bread!!
I was blessed to be able to get a National Health Service Corps scholarship for grad school. Another incredible government program supporting education without any "legacies" or "charitable gifts" needed.
One small point: There is a reasonable argument to be made that tuition remission for the children of faculty help colleges and universities recruit and retain better teachers, and save money that would otherwise have to be spent on higher salaries to have the same effect. (I do not know whether there is any evidence to show the actual worth of such programs.) And to the extent that faculty is more diverse than the ranks of alumni, such programs are also of some benefit to diversity.
As someone whose children benefited from tuition remission or matching, it made it easier for them to complete their education without debt. And many if not most faculty and staff have relatively modest incomes. Now, neither of them went ivy league. At the same time, yes it affected where we chose to teach/practice.
I will use the google machine later, but my sense is this Court would like nothing better than to strike down statutes that recognize disparate impact. Vote, vote, vote, vote, and vote.
University endowments have been granted a(n) unique non-profit status. Elite institutions have multibillion dollar endowments which essentially are untaxed funds of vast, under-utilized capital. Why is this tolerated? Certainly this is a distortion of the capital markets that affects admission policy. It should be scrutinized and corrected. Suggest you might bring an economist well-informed in endowments onto your guest feature to address this issue.
Right you are, Ron. The entire endowment/foundation set-up by the very wealthy needs scrutiny. Essentially, the richer one is, the more likely they can "white-wash" their tax obligations.
I didn’t know you are from LA, and East LA at that.
For those who don’t know, Joyce is delicately making the point that she came up via a part of our country that is heavily minority majority, labors under gang influence, and struggles/d thru underinvestment.
Another reason to be awed by you. 👏🏼
My Grandfather built a home in the San Gabriel Valley back in the 1930's but, I always loved Monterey Park, SoCal.
I had no idea that the number of legacy/donor kids was that high at Harvard. It gives pause to the value of a Harvard diploma. The irony is that large donors provide the school with ample donations that could fund scholarships for the students who can't afford the Harvard tuition, but are likely much more qualified. To boot, Harvard has an endowment of over $50 billion. As the wealthiest university in the world, they can afford to give "full rides" to any student that needs the financial support.
Just our own observations of the serious lack of intellectual curiosity, character, commonsense and moral precepts of the many Ivy League graduates* who have been elected and infest our halls of Congress, might give us all a pretty good idea of the value of a Harvard or Yale degree.
*Legacies and scions of wealthy donors especially--looking at you, Dubya and Jared Kushner.
I was a resident at Harvard and many of the professors were from the University of CA (public) system. It was a great experience but not particularly unique. I took my basic English class at UCLA in a class of 400 students with only a graduate student as my access for help. I have taken classes at community colleges (Long Beach and Eureka) and have always felt those were some of the most challenging, transforming, and small classes I have taken. I have always felt the "Ivy League" schools are overblown and over-favored with many students who seem more entitled than qualified. This often applies to the faculty as well; maybe famous but not necessarily the best teachers.
Spread the word, T.L! And don't forget Ted et al. The ILL (Ivy League Losers) club has been heavily influenced by right wing groups who have influenced the curriculum with endowed chairs and departments, too. Only the MAGAs are impressed with their credentials. Another way of looking at the issue is to shine light on the foundations and think tanks which shuffle the excess $billions from oligarchs' tax obligations to so-called "public good."
I didn't mention Rafe Cruz or DeSantis because--as far as I know--neither of them were legacies or children of donors; although Rafe might have benefited from Affirmative action admissions. If so, he is in solidarity with Clarence Thomas in saying, "Hey I got mine: the rest of you all can get lost." to any who wished to follow in their footsteps.
In our House and Senate there are 6 Senators who have Ivy League degrees; and among the Representatives there are 21 Ivy Leaguers, 15 from Harvard and 6 from Yale. Stanford, UCLA and UCB can also offer a goodly contingent of 21 grads; 11 Stanford grads and 10 from the University of California (L/A and Berkeley campuses).
Maybe we should start electing trade school grads and get some decent people with decent ethics and commonsense into the Halls of the Peoples Government!
And there was Eddie Beard the house painter from RI who served three terms in the US House of Representatives - with honor. His memory blesses all of us. L&B&L
Hey! I went to Cal (Berkeley) and think that I have both ethics and common sense... I think most of my friends from there do, too.
Just guessing, but in being a reader/commenter on Civil Discourse probably means you and your friends are all liberals/progressives/Dems or left centrist leaning folk. The Ivy leaguers who are ethically challenged seem to be (painting with a brad brush--I know) rightwingers (can't dignify them with the handle of "Republicans" or "conservatives" since they are not either.
I have no regard for those Harvard graduates in
in Congress who do not demonstrate a sense of fairness in their empty speeches toward minority classes of their constituents. They took an oath to uphold the Constitution but instead become con artists for the rich and powerful.
Ivy universities, with more money than God, do not want to spend much from their endowments; they are ultra-conservative in their spending. They raise a lot of money, but do not want to increase the amount spent on scholarships. They want donors to fund scholarships directly and donors like their names on scholarships. Endowments are handled in a very complex way and usually do not earn top interest rates, but they provide the university with a lot of financial power. As far as athletics, no school or university has in its mission statement to produce a winning sports team, yet they spend a lot of money (and taxpayer money for state schools and universities) on sports. Top coaches are paid way more than top faculty and donations for sports stay in sports; they don't help the academic mission and some donors are encouraged to donate to the sports team instead of towards academics.
I must plead guilty to a deep feeling of glee at your closing comment:
"If Florida Governor Ron DeSantis has been upset about the use of critical race theory to explain discrimination in the legal system, just think about how this is going to set him off!"
Maybe he'll just stamp his feet, and go away...very far away.
"Stamp his feet" makes me think of Rumplestiltskin, who IIRC was so furious at being thwarted that he stamped his foot so hard he tore himself in two and disappeared down a deep, deep hole. I was already having ghoulish guillotine fantasies about certain public figures. Rumplestiltskin (Trumplestiltskin?) has now been added to the repertoire.
A wonderful thought!
Thank you, Joyce, for breaking this down to the nitty gritty. I feel a little more hopeful that these attorneys will prevail. Roberts and his illegitimate court jesters’ rulings must be overturned. I certainly hope these lawmakers make them sweat. Must fight fire with fire!
By the way, loved that you referenced your husband’s tweet!
I’m thinking of Justice Elena Kagan’s dissent as explained by Lawrence O’Donnell this evening 7-5-23 about her crisis of faith with the Supreme Court. It was an extremely moving segment.
It sure was!
The non revenue sports cited here where also a key strategy for the Varsity Blues scam. Fake polo players, big donations equal admission. People of average means, who work two jobs, whose kids work hard, no matter what race are behind the eight ball in these situations. Access to high quality college level education changes lives and the oligarchs have closed the door that allows those without means to lift themselves and their heirs to another level. We are at the end of a 40 year cycle to reverse the advances that have been implemented during my lifetime. We are facing a have / have not world but one where everyone is heavily armed.
Not everyone.
Special consideration deserves special recognition. Time to put a foot note on the diploma along with the GPA and a WARNING LABEL such as “Do not trust. May not be competent.”
I always go back to this: if the law doesn't permit society to work to remedy and cure the injuries of historic white supremacy and class exploitation, there's something wrong with the law -- not the attempts to heal the damage, however fumbling and awkward.
This country only works if we share.
The laws got really messed up after reconstruction.
If I can’t be forced to utilize my free speech against my religious beliefs (303 Creative), and money is speech (Citizens United), then Quakers can withhold paying taxes to support wars, right?
The college and private education system is a mess. Politicians like desantis are making a mess of the public education system in Florida as well, and other states seem to be following suit.
Getting an Ivy league education isn't all it's cracked up to be. Just look at the crazy right-wing politicians who have Harvard degrees. And who can afford one?
I got my ADN at a community college. It was a first rate nursing program that was tough to pass, but I cherish what I learned, the people I went to classes with, and the Professors who taught there. The student body was diverse, and there was an atmosphere of inclusion.
But I agree that "legacy admissions" are a form of discrimination to others who don't fall into that category. Good luck to those who are fighting against it.
Congrats on your career in nursing, and your excellent education at a community college! My basic RN training was as a BSN in a Big Ten school, but my clinical skills and judgement upon graduation didn't hold a candle (ha- a picture of Florence Nightingale just popped into my mind) to the new ADN nurses I worked with after graduation. I learned on the job (sorry patients of 1975), and later completed my MSN and taught BSN completion at Univ of Mich for ADN students - again, so impressed with these nurses' skills, competence, intelligence, insights... The ADN programs are incredibly good. And nursing is the most challenging undergraduate program at any school.
Thanks for your comment, and I must say, I admire you for continuing your education and then teaching! I was a single parent at the time, and was unable to continue in school, but if I could, I would have pursued teaching. Teachers are BETTER than sliced bread!!
I was blessed to be able to get a National Health Service Corps scholarship for grad school. Another incredible government program supporting education without any "legacies" or "charitable gifts" needed.
One small point: There is a reasonable argument to be made that tuition remission for the children of faculty help colleges and universities recruit and retain better teachers, and save money that would otherwise have to be spent on higher salaries to have the same effect. (I do not know whether there is any evidence to show the actual worth of such programs.) And to the extent that faculty is more diverse than the ranks of alumni, such programs are also of some benefit to diversity.
As someone whose children benefited from tuition remission or matching, it made it easier for them to complete their education without debt. And many if not most faculty and staff have relatively modest incomes. Now, neither of them went ivy league. At the same time, yes it affected where we chose to teach/practice.
I will use the google machine later, but my sense is this Court would like nothing better than to strike down statutes that recognize disparate impact. Vote, vote, vote, vote, and vote.
Always heart warming to see there are people with the knowledge to fight injustice of those trying to chip away at democracy
University endowments have been granted a(n) unique non-profit status. Elite institutions have multibillion dollar endowments which essentially are untaxed funds of vast, under-utilized capital. Why is this tolerated? Certainly this is a distortion of the capital markets that affects admission policy. It should be scrutinized and corrected. Suggest you might bring an economist well-informed in endowments onto your guest feature to address this issue.
Right you are, Ron. The entire endowment/foundation set-up by the very wealthy needs scrutiny. Essentially, the richer one is, the more likely they can "white-wash" their tax obligations.
The Supremes need to change out their robes -- to white.
Your husband’s a keeper
Your last comment about DeSantis made my morning!