How do prosecutors try a case when the charges are based on top secret and other classified documents? By definition, top secret means that releasing the information publicly could do grave damage to national security. That harsh truth can be a stumbling block in prosecutions. If documents are declassified so they can be shared with a jury, that may cause the jury to conclude the information in them wasn’t as serious as the government claims and be hesitant to convict. But in many cases, declassification isn’t an option. The prospect of damage is too great to contemplate, as with nuclear secrets, information obtained from allies, or assessments that, if revealed, could compromise our national defense. In cases like that, there’s a real risk of defendants engaging in graymail, the practice of threatening to expose critical information in open court if the government insists on taking them to trial.
ANYTHING you say, I want to hear! Even if it’s hard for a non-lawyer to understand. This is an extraordinarily complex case, and we “civilians” cannot be lulled into complacency. Keep on schooling us!
I’ve been a trial lawyer for a lot of years, but only on the civil side, so these procedural hurdles are new to me. But I’ve never been comfortable with the idea that the more serious the violation of law, the less are the chances that the wrongdoer will be punished. That is particularly so with Trump, who opposes the idea of the rule of law. So I’ll follow the inevitable twists and turns as the prosecution proceeds. Fortunately, in Jack Smith I think that Trump has met his nemesis. At least, I hope so.
Yes, until Donald T. stepped in and brought Barr onboard that stopped the investigation.
Did not give the true facts that Mueller had written in his report. Barr did not share all that was in the report. We need to ask this Administration to look into this mishandling of the report.
Got that rignt Susan, absoutely ANYTHING: I believe the Professor is spot-on about the Pre-Trial CIPA Hearing with a number of wrinkles & a possible pre-trial appeal.
I have not seen tape of Jack Smith or his Trial Team but, with over 30 counts alleged I would expect several prosecutorial "bone crushers" & the issuance of During-Trial subpoenas to recreate still missing national defense documents from alternative government sources OR powerful witness testimony. "Your Honor, calling General Milley to the stand."
Magistrate Judge Jonathon Goodman presides ( 2nd most Senior). Note, in Federal District Court there is NO exchange of Witness Lists.
On the General Milley angle, see Jonathan Chait in the current issue of New York Magazine.
[Professor, the Community is very willing to learn including this Student.]
I have saved them all. Going back to read. Clarity since I am not an attorney. Who knows, we all may become attorneys after all our lessons from Attorney Joyce.
You can still "still sit for the Bar" in CA. But, a better path to a JD is as a law school.student in Alabama with the Professor. Civil Discourse regardless.
Joyce, as you continue to address this aspect of the case, you might want to take a look at the article I published in the Verdict in November, United States v. Donald J. Trump, the Trial of a National Security Case: https://verdict.justia.com/2022/11/15/the-united-states-v-donald-j-trump. In this article I discuss CIPA procedures and the problems prosecutors are likely to face trying to use it to prevent Trump from disclosing classified information that may genuinely be relevant to his defense. I was in charge of the classified information portion of the defense in Noriega, so I have some experience dealing with the nuances of the statute.
Thanks for this information and the link. As a former US Attorney colleague of Joyce during the Obama administration I find this information interesting and very informative! Thanks
Thank you for your informed and experienced perspective. Reading your article, following Joyce Vance, having a lawyer successfully defend me, and seeing the caliber of the lawyers within my circle, my respect for the profession grows.
This is admittedly above my head but I agree you are making it easier to understand. Thank you Joyce. This will be one for the history books indeed! Prayers for all....
I feel continuing intrigue, fascinated by this impressive list of who is who here and reading the responses. Sort of like getting a personalized hand crafted invitation to a Presidential Dinner ...oh my (what shall I wear?) credentialed people! In as much as I respect each of your amazing experiences giving you such titles ...including Joyce’s ..here I sit in my little shack deep in the woods , a humble farmer...privileged to be reading this all.
Permit MY humble response...’ Oh, PLEASE, do carry on! ‘
Yes, I would. I depend utterly on a close read of your texts, file them away for reference, my very own personal Civil Discourse law book. It seems the LAW is our last, best hope to save democracy. I’m hanging on to every word. What a treasure. And what an experience. Thank you.
Yes more detail the better. We need context. As to recusal, in my experience as a lawyer and retired fed bankruptcy judge, i found that judges are reluctant to recuse where the basis is bias or the appearance of bias because it goes against their belief that they can be fair. It is also unusual for a fairly new judge to recuse. This is a big deal case and judges, like lawyers, want to be involved in big cases. Luckily the prosecutor is experienced.
I appreciate your respect and generosity for a wide audience of varying education levels and general understanding. You honour us by allowing us into your law class and giving us the opportunity to learn from you. Keep it coming. We are in this together and we need and appreciate you.
I know that he has been paying lawyers from his campaign fund, which until he declared his running I believe he was able to do. Now I guess he can still draw from the monies collected prior to announcing his candidacy.
I assume the guests at Mar-a-lago are paying for his defense after he runs out of campaign fund money, but it remains to be seen whether he pays them since he is notorious for skipping out on bills. Trump is a classic sociopath, and as such, he has charmed a lot of people, much as Ted Bundy charmed women before killing them. Unlike Bundy, he is acting out his behavior on a large stage so we get to see what sociopathic behavior looks like up close and personal. It is concerning that millions of White and many Latino/a/x Evangelical Christians give up thinking for themselves to follow Trump as their churches tell them to do. I don't think he has as much of a Black Evangelical following. Still, Trump is acting in consort with a lot of really dubious leaders of religions that look like cults, not Christianity. See Shiny, Happy People series about the Cult of IBLP and the Duggar Family, which is The Handmaid's Tale in real life, in the USA.
Be sure to add "with narcissistic traits" to the sociopath diagnosis(dx). i read from my DSM-IV-TR for my husband to determine which dx was accurate. i gave him the choices of Psychopath, Sociopath or Border Line Personality Disorders with Narcissistic traits. After hearing all three, he was certain Trump qualified for Sociopath with narcissistic traits. As a clinician, Trump has been an interesting case study and so classic behavioral characteristics. WHAT a brave ego to air his "dirty laundry"/Shadow on an international stage. Most of us keep ours close at hand.
Yes. Good addition. Like Putin, when people around the world observe the behavior of Trump they recognize that our country and the world can come to no good with him in charge. His followers are perhaps too twisted to recognize this or care.
I noticed that Donald talks about himself. He would say, that man is an idiot. He is speaking about himself. Is that called Reflecting? I watch him and see him constantly telling us what he is doing by saying someone else is doing it. Crazy!!
You would think that the church members were reading about Jesus and following him, but I don't see that happening. Sad. It is written that the evil one masquerades as the light. They are being mislead. I wish I could tell all of them to wake up!
I was also thinking an attorney can not pay for the free Advertising to defend Donald. Getting their name out if new is a good idea. Then once that is done, go on your way. Your pay is free Advertising your name. I honestly believe that is why Donald pays no one. What do you think?
More, please! The complexities of this trial, the legal twists and turns that inevitably will imerge as the trial progresses are well beyond this poor citizen's ability to understand. I need you!
I like the detail! It is important to know this information so that we can explain it to friends and family with authority. Thank you for your lucid explanations of hard topics!
I understand the difficulty of showing top secret documents to jurors. Is there some reason why the documents in question can’t be summarized in general terms by some one authorized to see them? Such as ‘ this document reveals the location of CIA safe houses in country X.’
Thank you for providing us with crucial information about how Judge Cannon may be dealt with if she denies prosecutors proper use of the Classified Information Production Act protections (CIPA) . She could have gotten out of the high beams, which will be on her, if she had recused herself. Judge Cannon is now Mystery #1 in this case.
'Judge Cannon was cavalier in her treatment of classified material in her first go-round in this matter. If she continues down that path, denying prosecutors the opportunity to avail themselves of the protections CIPA provides, they will appeal her to the 11th Circuit. If her CIPA rulings are as lackadaisical as the orders that caused the 11th Circuit to reverse her in the search warrant matter, that won’t go well. If she continues to put her thumbs on the scales of justice for the former president, she could easily find herself not just reversed, but subject to an order by the circuit court that, on remand, the chief judge in her district reassign the case to another judge. Because the government will have to appeal any egregious mistakes the judge makes in really on CIPA matters, this is a prime opportunity to request reassignment of the case without injecting any additional delay into the case.'
'Word is, Judge Cannon has declined to recuse from the case on her own. It’s unlikely she’ll have the final say on that matter.' (Joyce Vance)
And would somebody provide me with a copy of Judge Eileen Cannon’s security clearance please? Oh wait, she doesn’t have one? I see another Aileen Cannon “special master” headed our way. Gonna have to get the lawn chairs out of storage again.
ANYTHING you say, I want to hear! Even if it’s hard for a non-lawyer to understand. This is an extraordinarily complex case, and we “civilians” cannot be lulled into complacency. Keep on schooling us!
I’ve been a trial lawyer for a lot of years, but only on the civil side, so these procedural hurdles are new to me. But I’ve never been comfortable with the idea that the more serious the violation of law, the less are the chances that the wrongdoer will be punished. That is particularly so with Trump, who opposes the idea of the rule of law. So I’ll follow the inevitable twists and turns as the prosecution proceeds. Fortunately, in Jack Smith I think that Trump has met his nemesis. At least, I hope so.
I have these same concerns.
I believe that Donald has met his nemesis.
Remember when lots of folks said/thought/had high hopes about Mueller.
Yes, until Donald T. stepped in and brought Barr onboard that stopped the investigation.
Did not give the true facts that Mueller had written in his report. Barr did not share all that was in the report. We need to ask this Administration to look into this mishandling of the report.
Got that rignt Susan, absoutely ANYTHING: I believe the Professor is spot-on about the Pre-Trial CIPA Hearing with a number of wrinkles & a possible pre-trial appeal.
I have not seen tape of Jack Smith or his Trial Team but, with over 30 counts alleged I would expect several prosecutorial "bone crushers" & the issuance of During-Trial subpoenas to recreate still missing national defense documents from alternative government sources OR powerful witness testimony. "Your Honor, calling General Milley to the stand."
Magistrate Judge Jonathon Goodman presides ( 2nd most Senior). Note, in Federal District Court there is NO exchange of Witness Lists.
On the General Milley angle, see Jonathan Chait in the current issue of New York Magazine.
[Professor, the Community is very willing to learn including this Student.]
Didn't I read somewhere that documents are still missing?
That's why I want them to look in the grave. I put nothing pass Donald.
Bedminster New Jersey Golf Club or thereabouts. See, Andrew Weisman & Andy Goldmand's article in The Atlantic, Andrew & Andy, thank you.
I completely agree. Please keep explaining the legal issues, rules, and ramifications of this case.
My sentiments exactly. I suspect I will want to refer back to this article down the road.
I have saved them all. Going back to read. Clarity since I am not an attorney. Who knows, we all may become attorneys after all our lessons from Attorney Joyce.
You can still "still sit for the Bar" in CA. But, a better path to a JD is as a law school.student in Alabama with the Professor. Civil Discourse regardless.
Definitely want more. When I started reading I knew my first question would be How can this judge screw this up?
By the time I finished reading I had stopped hyperventilating.
Thanks.
Very interested in “a little law school together “.
Joyce, as you continue to address this aspect of the case, you might want to take a look at the article I published in the Verdict in November, United States v. Donald J. Trump, the Trial of a National Security Case: https://verdict.justia.com/2022/11/15/the-united-states-v-donald-j-trump. In this article I discuss CIPA procedures and the problems prosecutors are likely to face trying to use it to prevent Trump from disclosing classified information that may genuinely be relevant to his defense. I was in charge of the classified information portion of the defense in Noriega, so I have some experience dealing with the nuances of the statute.
As always, love your articles.
Jon May
Thanks for this information and the link. As a former US Attorney colleague of Joyce during the Obama administration I find this information interesting and very informative! Thanks
Steve
Please elaborate...
I don’t understand your question. My thoughts are all in the article I published.
Thank you, Jon, for your perspective.
Jon I would love to hear you compare the Noriega case with Trump's.
Thank you. Your explanation of how information is substituted through CIPA was very helpful
Thanks. Greatly appreciated reading your article. Very informative.
Great article, Jon.
Thanks, going there now.
Thank you, Jon. More education the better.
The link to your article is indeed a gem; thank you so very much!
Thank you for your informed and experienced perspective. Reading your article, following Joyce Vance, having a lawyer successfully defend me, and seeing the caliber of the lawyers within my circle, my respect for the profession grows.
Speaking of Noriega, I’m in Panama now so have been thinking of him once or twice.
Please keep this kind of information coming. I don’t mind some law school at all! It’s very helpful!
Educating us on the law is necessary to fully understand the consequences of Trump's actions.
This is admittedly above my head but I agree you are making it easier to understand. Thank you Joyce. This will be one for the history books indeed! Prayers for all....
Couldn’t have said that better ZsuzEB.
I feel continuing intrigue, fascinated by this impressive list of who is who here and reading the responses. Sort of like getting a personalized hand crafted invitation to a Presidential Dinner ...oh my (what shall I wear?) credentialed people! In as much as I respect each of your amazing experiences giving you such titles ...including Joyce’s ..here I sit in my little shack deep in the woods , a humble farmer...privileged to be reading this all.
Permit MY humble response...’ Oh, PLEASE, do carry on! ‘
(And ...thank you so much ❤️)
You sound like a real American.
What a lovely statement Joyce Marie, thank you.
🤣
Yes, I would. I depend utterly on a close read of your texts, file them away for reference, my very own personal Civil Discourse law book. It seems the LAW is our last, best hope to save democracy. I’m hanging on to every word. What a treasure. And what an experience. Thank you.
Yes more detail the better. We need context. As to recusal, in my experience as a lawyer and retired fed bankruptcy judge, i found that judges are reluctant to recuse where the basis is bias or the appearance of bias because it goes against their belief that they can be fair. It is also unusual for a fairly new judge to recuse. This is a big deal case and judges, like lawyers, want to be involved in big cases. Luckily the prosecutor is experienced.
Also as a psychologist, I note that there is much evidence that people in general are very poorly able to assess their own biases.
I appreciate your respect and generosity for a wide audience of varying education levels and general understanding. You honour us by allowing us into your law class and giving us the opportunity to learn from you. Keep it coming. We are in this together and we need and appreciate you.
Incredible clear description of an entirely complex subject. I suppose that both sides have figured out their chess strategy here. Thanks Joyce!!!!
I wonder if Trump's lawyers have figured out how to get paid and who's paying them. That's a different game altogether.
I know that he has been paying lawyers from his campaign fund, which until he declared his running I believe he was able to do. Now I guess he can still draw from the monies collected prior to announcing his candidacy.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/21/us/politics/trump-campaign-spending-pac-lawyer-bills.html
I assume the guests at Mar-a-lago are paying for his defense after he runs out of campaign fund money, but it remains to be seen whether he pays them since he is notorious for skipping out on bills. Trump is a classic sociopath, and as such, he has charmed a lot of people, much as Ted Bundy charmed women before killing them. Unlike Bundy, he is acting out his behavior on a large stage so we get to see what sociopathic behavior looks like up close and personal. It is concerning that millions of White and many Latino/a/x Evangelical Christians give up thinking for themselves to follow Trump as their churches tell them to do. I don't think he has as much of a Black Evangelical following. Still, Trump is acting in consort with a lot of really dubious leaders of religions that look like cults, not Christianity. See Shiny, Happy People series about the Cult of IBLP and the Duggar Family, which is The Handmaid's Tale in real life, in the USA.
Be sure to add "with narcissistic traits" to the sociopath diagnosis(dx). i read from my DSM-IV-TR for my husband to determine which dx was accurate. i gave him the choices of Psychopath, Sociopath or Border Line Personality Disorders with Narcissistic traits. After hearing all three, he was certain Trump qualified for Sociopath with narcissistic traits. As a clinician, Trump has been an interesting case study and so classic behavioral characteristics. WHAT a brave ego to air his "dirty laundry"/Shadow on an international stage. Most of us keep ours close at hand.
Yes. Good addition. Like Putin, when people around the world observe the behavior of Trump they recognize that our country and the world can come to no good with him in charge. His followers are perhaps too twisted to recognize this or care.
I noticed that Donald talks about himself. He would say, that man is an idiot. He is speaking about himself. Is that called Reflecting? I watch him and see him constantly telling us what he is doing by saying someone else is doing it. Crazy!!
I am right with you.
You would think that the church members were reading about Jesus and following him, but I don't see that happening. Sad. It is written that the evil one masquerades as the light. They are being mislead. I wish I could tell all of them to wake up!
They are getting paid by Trumps many defense funds “ 1 for you 19 for me..Trumpman🎶”
That's the theory. My guess is he's busy stashing the money where no one can get it.
hahahahahahahahahah You are reading my mind.
I was also thinking an attorney can not pay for the free Advertising to defend Donald. Getting their name out if new is a good idea. Then once that is done, go on your way. Your pay is free Advertising your name. I honestly believe that is why Donald pays no one. What do you think?
That sounds right. Plus, he's gotten away w/ stiffing people for decades and wouldn't expect things to change now.
Reported today that Trump's team is today interviewing attorneys.
And having trouble finding anyone to come on board, because he’s so difficult to work with and doesn’t pay his bills.
And he lies to his lawyers, too. And asks them to lie.
Look what he did to Barr. Barr obstructed Justice for Donald and now Donald is trashing Barr.
Any new counsel must file a "Notice of Appearance" & that attorney must seek leave of court to wihdraw. No exit certainly no easy exit.
Interesting then that so many have managed to do it.
More, please! The complexities of this trial, the legal twists and turns that inevitably will imerge as the trial progresses are well beyond this poor citizen's ability to understand. I need you!
I like the detail! It is important to know this information so that we can explain it to friends and family with authority. Thank you for your lucid explanations of hard topics!
I understand the difficulty of showing top secret documents to jurors. Is there some reason why the documents in question can’t be summarized in general terms by some one authorized to see them? Such as ‘ this document reveals the location of CIA safe houses in country X.’
They can. Take a look at Jon May's article referenced above. He provides the link.
Joyce, informative and quite helpful! It will help when hear/read about the upcoming court procedures. I wish federal court procedures were televised!
Thank you for providing us with crucial information about how Judge Cannon may be dealt with if she denies prosecutors proper use of the Classified Information Production Act protections (CIPA) . She could have gotten out of the high beams, which will be on her, if she had recused herself. Judge Cannon is now Mystery #1 in this case.
'Judge Cannon was cavalier in her treatment of classified material in her first go-round in this matter. If she continues down that path, denying prosecutors the opportunity to avail themselves of the protections CIPA provides, they will appeal her to the 11th Circuit. If her CIPA rulings are as lackadaisical as the orders that caused the 11th Circuit to reverse her in the search warrant matter, that won’t go well. If she continues to put her thumbs on the scales of justice for the former president, she could easily find herself not just reversed, but subject to an order by the circuit court that, on remand, the chief judge in her district reassign the case to another judge. Because the government will have to appeal any egregious mistakes the judge makes in really on CIPA matters, this is a prime opportunity to request reassignment of the case without injecting any additional delay into the case.'
'Word is, Judge Cannon has declined to recuse from the case on her own. It’s unlikely she’ll have the final say on that matter.' (Joyce Vance)
And would somebody provide me with a copy of Judge Eileen Cannon’s security clearance please? Oh wait, she doesn’t have one? I see another Aileen Cannon “special master” headed our way. Gonna have to get the lawn chairs out of storage again.