302 Comments
May 2·edited May 2Liked by Joyce Vance

I found the information in this Times article almost unbelievable, it's so counter to what this country was built on.

I've tried talking to some rabid trump supporters in my extended family, but they cannot be convinced. They regurgitate the far right talking points, but have no data to back up their beliefs.

They really see Biden as evil and that he's ruining the country and they truly believe they were better off under trump.

It's like beating my head against the wall!

I did have a constructive conversation with a 24 year old that I work with. She leans towards trump but the abortion issue is driving her willingness to hear more about trump. She's never voted! I sent her links so she could get registered. Perhaps a small victory?

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author

I think your experience reflects the data that says the people who are most likely to be persuaded are people who aren't firmly in the base, people who are undecided or who might not be planning to vote. But I still think it's worth planting seeds, especially with family. I've seen people come around given time and information. It's much harder for them to do when they feel backed into a corner--no one likes to admit they've been hoodwinked. None of this is easy, but claim that small victory and feel good about it!

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I respect you very much. But it's naive to think these people can be changed. Nazis couldn't be changed. They turned in their neighbors to be sent to internment camps. The last person we attempted to reach swore Biden was owned by the Chinese and Trump would stop abortion. This was a businessman in his fifties, not some hick in the hinterlands. We are no longer friends. What should be happening is the media from broadcast to cable laying out Trump's authoritarian wet dream, but they won't. Why? Beyond that these college protestors are helping Trump and hurting Biden. These are profoundly dire times and frankly, I don't believe anyone is undecided. If someone can't decide between Trump and Biden, we are doomed.

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I think they’re still plenty who aren’t paying attention like we who follow Professor Vance. Those are the people we may be able to reach.

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May 2·edited May 2

As long as the MSM are devoted to covering the "horse race" and not the issues, we are doomed. And they will be the first to go if the Orange Rind is elected again.....

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Isn't Time magazine "MSM"?

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Certainly - but it is one magazine. There has been a sad tendency for news shows on TV and in some newspapers to emphasize the "horse race" with polls and early analysis showing a tied race, no doubt to sell papers or views. But only now are some outlets devoting real resources to covering what Trump is saying. I admit the tide there seems to be turning, but not everywhere. It should have happened way sooner, but I am glad it is at least starting now.

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founding

Rita Parker - I agree ... Great Post !!

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@Joyce, Rita and Tamaya. For many MAGATs (enough) it's all visceral.

1. "Trump hates dogs" works, especially at dog parks. According to Ivana Trump, he provoked growls from her dog, Chappy, a poodle. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/05/opinion/trump-military-dog.html

2. "Trump stole from kids with cancer." https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/2019/donald-j-trump-pays-court-ordered-2-million-illegally-using-trump-foundation

3. For veterans "Not suckers or losers."

4. For people on SSI, "Slit your own throat."

Here's some proof. https://rvat.org/

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Thank you for that. Exactly what I’m looking for: specific talking points to use for specific people. Still, the Project 2025 proposals and those endorsed by Trump in his Time interviews are so fantastic, they sound as nutty as any conspiracy theory.

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Right now my daughter is studying the resistance to the Nazi's. Those are the lessons we need to be taking from the rule of the Nazis and the Holocaust because we are going to need to understand that just in case. The Nazi's won and got Hitler into power with 33% of the vote, so the largest individual group. However the Social Democrats could have organized with another group to make a coalition that met the 50% requirement for leadership, but they did not do that, believing in Democracy and the fragile process of the past 15 years. Also, President Hindenberg might have listened to his feelings instead of being convinced to make Adolf Hitler Chancellor. The elite who was so worried about the Communists and other leftist groups taking over like the Communists had in Russia, that they would support Hitler to avoid giving the labor movement any more power, thought they could control him more easily than they could control these other groups. That includes the oligarchic owners of the press thinking that Hitler could be a useful idiot. The elite wanted to be rid of democracy so they were eager to return to the absolutism of before. Instead, there was a protest inside Germany, just as there is in Russia too. Do not assume no one resisted. A the same time, look a the numbers here who would go along with whatever Trump dishes out, for want of a better plan and better opportunities. The same people who claimed they would move to Canada if he won and then did not go when he won, will be the ones complacently accepting his dictatorship if their personal lifestyles do not appear to change greatly. Of course, by the time they notice the loss of freedoms it will be too late. So, it would be important to make a plan for what you would do if he won, and then do everything in your power to make sure that does not happen. However, if he did steal the election Americans have to draw on their own revolutionary spirits to resist. One of the reasons the Republicans right now are so adamant about student and other protests against Gaza being quashed right now, is because they are afraid that the American population is being activated and will not so easily accept whatever Trump wants to dish out. It will also boil down to the military. Will they go along with the President if that President is Trump and he is trying to use them to violate the Constitution that they have sworn to uphold.

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Order "The Mortal Storm" DVD from Amazon for your daughter. It's a 1940 film that shows what happens to one family when Hitler comes to power. Trump has laid out what he's going to do. Too many people aren't paying attention.

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Rita, Yesterday her history class had a Holocaust survivor who is 95 years old, come and talk about her experiences during the time of Hitler's rule. The woman's story was very interesting. Anyway, does this come in another format than DVD?

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Thank you for sharing this. I doubt it comes in another format. It's a very old movie but profound.

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May 2·edited May 2

Joyce we could use a running list of all things we could / should potentially bring to light in conversations with people who could be persuaded, not firmly in tfg’s base.

Having a list readily available would be of great help for those conversations. No doubt the list will be long. We don’t need to inundate anyone we talk to with everything on the list, we could pick and choose items that would resonate the most for any particular conversation.

I started a list awhile back culled from information in Civil Discourse as well as LFAA but it was tough to keep up. Perhaps everyone here can reply to my post to help assemble a list?

A list will not only help for discussions we might have but also help all of us keep the plethora of information straight in our own heads.

A list should include not only the insanities of what Trump will do if elected but also the positive achievements of what Biden has already done.

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Many of my “conservative “ friends are also Facebook friends. I believe just posting a link to your Substack or the Times article could be a helpful nudge.

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I’ve been listening to David Brooks How to Know a Person and he talks about talking g to people with different beliefs and views. One suggestion he makes that stuck with me is to calmly ask the question “ How did you come to believe that?”. I haven’t been in a situation yet to try it but it strikes me that since most trumpers haven’t thought their way to their position, it might stop them in their tracks. The question is respectful and invites conversation. At the least, it perhaps undercuts animosity.

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Yes...and then really listen to their responses--listen to understand, not to contradict. Listen to help them hear themselves, and to appreciate who they are. Listen listen listen.

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founding

yes, BUT THEN, if they don't talk themselves out of their misinformed ideas, you have to respond with something.

my son in law in Dallas is one who will vote for a shiny Republican if T$@ drops out. he said that both Biden and T#@$%$ are sleazy, but Biden less so. I asked him why he thought Biden was sleazy. he said bc he took showers with his daughter and abused her. yep. he completely believed that.

so i researched that story, for my own reassurance as much as for him, and found the evidence it was based on, all of which was not compelling and was promoted and distorted by far right sources. I wrote him a short essay laying out the evidence using 2 conservatives sources to show him the (un)truth of that story.

i don't yet know if he read it, how he took it, or if he changed his mind. but i hope i've helped him be more committed to Biden rather than seeing it as voting against T$#@%.

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Good job. And your anecdote proves Barb Mcquade's point about disinformation being purposely emotionally loaded to capture the non-discriminating brain.

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I’d like to know how that works out - I have seen a number of comments in various Substack from people who said they have asked their conservative friends to describe how they feel Trump has benefited them, and it seems like a lot of them just get mad and won’t talk about it at all unless they are talking to another conservative. Certainly the hard core MAGAts won’t be reasoned with, but I hope to see some comments that show more moderate voters who might listen or read that laundry list from Time, in Trumps own words.

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I suspect that is true for hardcore MAGAs who don't want to think and only want to be with those who reinforce their beliefs. But you never know if you shake something loose that carries over.

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I live in hope!

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Don't we all! Time better spent registering voters, writing postcards.....

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Got to remember this!

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May 2Liked by Joyce Vance

I have the same issue. My family all think I’m crazy and won’t even listen to me. It’s so disheartening!

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Do you sometimes find yourself questioning if maybe we're the ones who have it wrong?! Like, we've been gaslighted? They are as sure we're wrong as we are that they're wrong.

You begin to question your sanity!

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Just look at the list of things Joe Biden has done and continues to do for this country. I live an Intown neighborhood of Atlanta and “Build back Better “ is repairing and replacing our far over do water and sewer systems and resurfacing our pot holed streets. There are so many freedoms that we have lost and will continue to lose if this evil man and his “supreme “ court continues to destroy our democracy. Do not get disheartened. Fight for what’s right. Oh and also I strongly believe that these riled students are being incited by Putin sources. Just like that guy that falsely accused Biden’s son. These are very scary times. Joyce is right we must talk out and try our best to develop lines of communication with folks that just do not see what a dictatorship will do to ALL of us.

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I agree with you 100% about the Russians and social media with the college student population. Just the fact that the Speaker of the House went to Columbia University tells it all. Sad that these kids are being used as pawns.

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Also the college protests could make folks nervous enough to vote for “law and order”.

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Just like my dad’s only vote for a republican, Nixon, in 1968. His one and only Republican vote in 64 years of voting(over age 21, 1948-2012).

Vote blue no matter who.

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Malcolm Nance is saying that Osama Bin Ladin would be so happy seeing all these protests.........democracy is really on the line big time.

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It matters not where the outside agitators on US campuses are coming from. By and large the STUDENT protestors are peaceful and want to put an end to the killing of innocents in Gaza. Here is the latest breakdown on outside agitators whose motives are unknown.

Arizona State University: 80% Outsiders

School officials released a statement confirming this figure.

Columbia University: 50%+ Outsiders—Infiltration Confirmed By NYPD and Protesters

Note that “autonomous groups” operate entirely differently from student groups, as they do not care about academic discipline, do not care about the college or university community writ large, and know that as long as they remain cloaked in secrecy and (in many cases) heavy face coverings they can blend seamlessly into a student movement—even as the students whose groups they’re infiltrating are often in no position, due to being in the heat of major-media coverage, to figure out who’s in any outside group.

Florida State University: 60% Outsiders

Northeastern University: Outsiders Predominant

According to the school’s own statement, “What began as a student demonstration two days ago was infiltrated by professional organizers with no affiliation to Northeastern. Last night, the use of virulent antisemitic slurs [by these unaffiliated persons], including ‘Kill the Jews,’ crossed the line. We cannot tolerate this kind of hate on our campus.”

Even more telling than the above is NPR’s report indicating that a pro-Netanyahu agitator was the one who tried to incite anti-semitism at Northeastern—exactly the sort of far-right psy-ops this report is concerned about. “Videos shared with WBUR [the local NPR affiliate] appear to show a counter-protester holding an Israeli flag who attempts at one point to provoke the crowd to chant ‘Kill the Jews.’ The videos show some in the [pro-Palestinian] crowd responding [to the attempted right-wing incitement] with boos.”

{Note: The New York Times now confirms that “a video appear[s] to show that it was a pro-Israel counter-protester who used the phrase [‘Kill the Jews’]…”}

Portland State University: Up to 100% Outsiders—Building Occupied

At Portland State, just 10% of a 500-strong protest broke off to criminally occupy a building on campus. Oregon Live couldn’t locate any among the 50 who were students.

Tulane University: 85% Outsiders

UCLA: Mix Unknown—Possible Chemical Munitions Release By Pro-IDF Counter-Protestors

University of Georgia: 44% Outsiders

We see at University of Georgia the continuation of a trend evident everywhere else, too: there’s a direct correlation between the number of arrestees who are students and the chances that the arrests in question were for non-violent actions like Trespassing.

University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill: 50% to 65% Outsiders

University of South Florida: Mix Unknown—Gun Present

From two consecutive public statements by the USF administration:

University of Texas at Austin: 57% Outsiders

Virginia Commonwealth University: 54% Outsiders

Washington University at St. Louis: “Many” Outsiders

The exact percentage of the WUSTL-located group of protesters that is foreign to the university community isn’t yet known, but WUSTL did issue a statement in which it declares that “many individuals not affiliated with the university….marched to multiple campus locations, pitched tents, and indicated that they did not intend to leave. They also put out a call for more people to come to campus to join the[m].”

The above is from a Substack post yesterday by Seth Abramson. I do NOT recommend anyone subscribe to his posts unless you enjoy reading long screeds by ego-maniacal conspiracy theorist (my personal opinion of his writing). However, he does occasionally report some salient facts.

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July, why do you think the college protesters are being "incited by Putin sources"? I mean, what is your evidence? To draw the parallel with the Russian plant/Hunter Biden issue seems to cast the protesters as having no legitimacy. I mean, going on 40,000 dead in Gaza with no limits by the US on arms. Personally, that's what I don't get.

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Their legitimacy is being used. They are truly caring as my group was against Vietnam. I am not against these students rights and their causes. Just the way they are being incited and manipulated to cause division.

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It appears that not all of them are students.

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Sure there are protestors who are not students - but they've been more linked to US anarchist groups. These are scary times. Do you have any reason to believe that Putin sources are involved?

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Putin has been behind the incitement against the fall of democracy and the west since the Soviet Union was dismantled. His calling and drive is to destroy the west and establish the Soviet power over the world. My proof is in history. You do know that he was and is big supporter of Donald Trump?

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T, be strong, be resolute.

There is no doubt in my mind. I've thought about it for a long time, most of my long life so far. I know what's right. And I won't back down.

Like Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers and friends, I won't back down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvlTJrNJ5lA

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There weren't good people on both sides. tRump is the Devil!

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founding
May 2·edited May 2

No. Your belief is in something verifyable. Do not doubt yourself.

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for 40 years I have been hoping for a good argument telling me the left is wrong and the right is right. So I just keep writing and waiting.

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May 2·edited May 2

I've had that exact thought... then dismissed it. But their reality is as real to them as ours is to us. My brother is a tRump supporter. I've asked him why he likes tfg. His answer "because he's honest". WHAT? He's a well educated, smart person, but he needs to belong and he needs his peers' approval. I wonder how many tRump followers have the same profile.

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“You begin to question your sanity!“

And that is exactly what they want!

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Maggots have been gaslighting the entire nation with year after year of mindfucking BS.

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Yes you have been gaslighted. There is room for nuanced difference on how we move forward, but your side has taken to vociferously defending moving backwards. There are powerful forces with a vested interest for moving backwards and they are the gaslighters.

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Actually I don't believe I've been gaslighted, I was joking. I'm not sure I know what you mean when you say liberals are moving us backwards. If "moving backwards" includes supporting the middle class and assuring that everyone pays their fair share, I'm all for moving backwards.

It seems the right is moving us backwards. They overturned a right that women have had for 50 years.

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"Frank Lee" is a well-known Trump Troll. Report him.

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Yes. Done

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Awe. Little pseudo intellectual has to report people that don't agree with his politics. Needs the warm bubble of liberal groupthink to keep up his false sense of being high up some social hierarchy when he is a lowly and lonely boy that never leaves his house nor keyboard.

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"Supporting the middle class"? LOL. Yeah right. Amazing that you would even write that.

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Frank Lee, WELL-KNOWN TRUMP TROLL - welcome back you worthless piece of shit! Mommy still wants her computer back.

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founding

Someone had to say that.

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I reported him yesterday.

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I love the display of your disgusting language behavior and the fact that so many like it. It confirms what the rest of us know about the true quality of human that makes up your cohort. I used to beat the shit out of people like you in grade school to protect the vulnerable kids from your bullying.

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He is just fighting fire with fire........throwing a stinking Trump filled Depends back in your face using your MAGA dictionary for dumb fucks!!

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The only people who want to move us backwards are the GOP -- taking away women's rights; suppressing the vote; permitting discrimination against the LGBTQ+ community; denying climate change; desiring to dismantle the civil service; preferring govt by the few, white, wealthy and male. That's what backwards looks like.

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One vital confirmation that "we" are correct is the extent to which we are in accord with real conservatives, like those at the Bulwark and the Lincoln Project.

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Never.

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Family are not low-hanging fruit!

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@ Kathy. Do they have pets?

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lol yes we all have dogs lol!!!! That should help!!

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So very true but we cannot give up.

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May 2·edited May 2

It is shocking how the elimination of the Fairness Doctrine under Reagan gave rise to talk radio, Sean Hannity, Fox Nation and the other peddlers of country-destroying tripe. Then, in 2010, Citizens United turbo-charged the spewing of lies and smears and ultimately the funding of the elections of political opportunists like Gym Jordan, James Comer, and Marjorie Taylor Greene.

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IMO, Citizens United is the worse SCOTUS decision since Plessy v Ferguson. It allowed those intent on destroying our democracy to create an oligarchy. Where is the legislation to defeat it?

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Too many of our pols depend on the unconstrained flow of money now

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May 2·edited May 2

Each person listening and thinking more is huge victory. Mother Teresa was asked how she could face the hordes of destitute around the world. She said, "Ek, ek, ek." Hindi for "One by one by one."

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founding

Yes.

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Same issue with me

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May 2Liked by Joyce Vance

Decades ago I was an engineer with the FAA and was program manager for a number of advanced navigation systems throughout the U.S. I worked 17 years to qualify for that position. I was also outspoken so, today, I would likely be one of the ones Trump fires should the worst happen. My question is, “Who would do that job?” There are hundreds, perhaps thousands, in similar positions across the government. Replacing them with sycophants will get people killed. Trust in the government will evaporate. I’m happy to be retired but the threat is real.

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That's the point, to get people killed and trust eroding in our government. Competency is something the Trump Republicans despise right now--they don't want anything to work, they need us desperate and dependent on them.

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What I don't understand is how "burning it all down" will make their lives better.

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Fear makes people submissive. Stability promotes less tentativeness, more comfort to challenge and question and wonder about things.

These are people frightened by massive changes taking place in America (most of the counties voting in vast majorities for Trump have seen huge surges in immigration, it turns out). Those are changes that they see as a threat to what they believe to be the 'right' way of life. They want an autocrat because they themselves live in preternatural fear constantly, thanks to Fox and Trump blaring on about danger. They believe they are incredibly brave and 'best', but under dire pressures and threats to their existence.

They want 'others', especially women who don't always kowtow to men, children who question their authority, and LGBTQ+, to be too scared to lift their heads, to shut up and do as they say. They want 'others' to be desperate and dependent.

This is why they are so willing to be cruel. That is a feature, not a bug, not accidental at all. Look at them cheering on the overreaching by police, beating on students and professors. Stochastic Terrorism at its 'best' (Melania would approve). And this is just a rap on the knuckles. They will go much, much farther, and feel perfectly satisfied with even more violence. They're being carefully groomed to accept killing people for the cause, much less assaulting our Capitol again.

Sorry to sound so pessimistic, but the latest developments are extremely alarming, I think.

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Hard to "like" this comment, but I see the truth in it. I guess I am too "bull-headed" as my dad used to say, to accept blind leadership. Question everything.

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But that can be the best part of America. We're historically unbelievably bull-headed and skeptical of authority (except for these scared Republican rabbits). Always have been.

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It will not make their lives better. I believe that nihilism is now a strong force in our country, that for the people of the MAGA right, anger has triumphed over reason. In the end, these people too are victims in an age of propaganda.

Many now subscribe to the idea that democracy is deeply flawed, and that a dictatorship is preferable. They have been mercilessly manipulated by power-hungry politicians, who are themselves useful idiots for Trump.

Those who are willing to be educated on the facts are few, but perhaps they are enough to tip the scale, to 'bend the arc of history toward justice.'

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Thank you for your expert, dedicated service! And for sharing this perspective.

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This article makes good points.

The word dictator appears, but only once near the end. I think it needs to be used in preference to the more benign word authoritarian.

Thank you again!

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author

agree

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A lot of people aren’t very educated in politics and need to hear the word dictator not authoritarian.

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Or anything, for that matter.

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good point -- more people understand what a dictator is.

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Law(less) Day

In the Land of the Grifter, where truth is a lie,

Where the once-mighty leader is being tried,

There's a storm brewing fierce, like a viral tweet gone mad,

And the future looks bleaker than a trend that's gone bad.

The Grifter-in-Chief, with his spray-tanned face,

Plots his return to power, to reclaim his disgrace.

He'll reshape the nation like a reality show,

Where the only thing real is the depths he'll go.

He'll round up the "illegals," like a Twitter mob's prey,

And camps will be built, where due process won't stay.

The states will be watchdogs, monitoring each womb,

As rights are eroded, like a social media boom.

The Grifter will reign, with an iron-clad grip,

The DOJ his pawn, the courts his power trip.

He'll pardon the rioters, who stormed the sacred hall,

While allies are abandoned, like a friend who won't call.

The civil service torn; the fabric of trust,

The National Guard deployed, to quell any fuss.

The pandemic office closed, like a failed State's door,

While acolytes chant "stolen," the wornout mantra they adore.

But the Time mag has spoken, in a cover story bold,

The Grifter's plans laid bare—a secret untold.

His own words betray him, those damning tweets,

As fact-checkers scurry, to expose his deceit.

Yet his base remains steadfast—a cult's devotion,

Believing the "liberal" media is just a commotion.

From Buckley to Powell, to Limbaugh's radio reign,

The seeds of distrust, mirroring a virus, remain.

Now a judge holds the Grifter, in contempt of the court,

For attacking the witnesses—a schoolyard's retort.

Fines are imposed—a slap on the wrist,

But jail time looms—a shadow in the mist.

On Law Day we ponder, the fate of our land,

As democracy teeters, is our House built on sand?

Will we rise to defend it, heed the patriot's call?

Or let the Grifter's chaos, spawn a nation's fall?

In this dystopian landscape, where truth is a meme,

And justice is threatened, like a fading dream,

We must stand as the keepers, of our fragile right,

To preserve our democracy, in this relentless fight.

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Nicely done! You live up to your profile “passion for rhyme and love of words.” Beautifully written.

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Please set these lyrics to music!

Perhaps an opera.

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You are so very talented. I look forward to each and everyone of your poems.

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I do, too! I've always enjoyed poetry but have no talent for writing it. I take a lot of pleasure in others efforts, though!

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Thank you! Great!

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At least Trump helped everyone by putting it all out there. No doubt about who he is. He is angry, power hungry, deceitful, paranoid, vengeful, and probably lost touch with reality.

I hope and expect Biden and all his administration to make clear comparisons to what they would do vs Trump.

ALSO: Let’s not forget about Judge Cannon and the Documents Case. Isn’t she guilty of obstructing justice? This case shouldn’t just disappear.

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May 2Liked by Joyce Vance

Read earlier this evening that POTUS said the Time article is a must read. I’ll download & read it. Everyone else should, too.

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I read the article yesterday, but what I thought was even _more_ important to read was the transcript of the interviews, and the fact checking article (both are linked in the Time article). Imo, the reporter made trump sound far more rational than he is, by distilling down what he told him into comprehensible sentences. When you read the Criminal Defendant's own rambling words, it illustrates how distorted his mind is. Also, he lies repeatedly, but the reporter didn't push back on those lies enough. Frequently, he just lets the lie sit there and moves on. I can see why trump liked him, because he treated him with deference, with frequent uses of the words "Mr.President" and"Sir", which the wannabe dictator loves.

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Thanks for this insight. That’s what the media has been doing to Trump ever since he came down that golden escalator in 2015. They constantly give him a free ride & suck up to him.

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In 2020, friends and neighbors may have let their acquaintances slide as to their political choices. "To each, their own."

In 2024, as the public becomes more aware of the dangers of Proj'25 and Agenda47, they will talk with greater assertion.

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Let’s hope they do. Over the years I have seen less Trump flags, though there still remain the die hard ones who totally do not understand.

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We need to start the “un-project 2025” and publish and promote through interviews. We will maintain our institutions, retain our leading position for promoting democracy, we will level the economic playing field, develop sensible and humane immigration policy and will work to leave a better world for our children.

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Hear hear, Christopher!

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Sounds like the Democratic platform for 2024.

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May 2Liked by Joyce Vance

Thank you Joyce for laying out so clearly his terrifying plans. We all need to do what we can to prevent him from regaining the presidency. Join grassroots groups like ours, www.markersfordemocracy.org, and get involved now. The best antidote to anxiety is taking action.

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Julie, your last sentence about taking action to relieve anxiety is SPOT ON. I mailed nine, individually, handwritten letters to the Supreme Court justices this week. In addition I also write 10-20 postcards to voters each week. Also, I write or email my representatives on topics of concern and on occasion have written a letter to the editor of our local paper. I do anything positive to combat the rage I experience at the state of affairs in this country.

I suppose “write” is my action verb and “pouring a glass of red” is action as well. 😊

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Cassidy did NOT claim that Trump lunged for the wheel. She was very clear that she would not have been able to make that claim, since she was not there. She only alleges that she was TOLD, by an individual in position to know, that Trump had done so. It is important that you correct this, and not get it wrong; otherwise you are improperly calling her credibility into question. I’m very surprised you of all people got this wrong.

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I don't know that Joyce's statement was wrong so much as imprecise and maybe written too quickly. (Cassidy Hutchinson did testify that TFG lunged for the wheel, according to what someone else had told her.) I was impressed that Joyce was able to share those admissions from today's rally with us tonight - I don't know how she gets it all done.

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“Secret Service agents have disputed Hutchinson’s claim that Trump lunged for the wheel in an effort to force the wheel to take him to the Capitol.”

This is not merely imprecise; it is flat out wrong. Cassidy’s statement could only be impeached by evidence that she was not told what she asserts she was told. Joyce comes from federal prosecutor world; she knows this distinction far better than most.

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Second hand knowledge…I believe it was Rudy or MM.

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founding

Every vote in every state, in every county, in every city, in every school district matters in November. This has to be a resounding defeat of all the MAGIDIOTS!

I wish POTUS would stop saying that the election will come down to battleground states because that implies that states like my Washington don’t matter. Don Poorleone must lose the popular vote by 50 million plus so it is obvious to the world that he is the Lyin’ King as Christian Nationalists attempt to steal the elections.

We must all turn out to remove election denying, asleep, racist, mysogynists all the way down the ballots.

I sincerely hope that in Joe Biden’s next term he replaces Merrick Garland with an Attorney General who relentlessly pursues convictions on all insurrectionists.

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Straight out of Democracy in Chains - we need to be deeply frightened.

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Thank you Joyce. Nothing mentioned in Time is new - trump has said it all, openly, in public. At a donors party at the White House in 2020 he responded to a chant of 4 more years with this response "or 8 or 12. I may never leave" This was shown LIVE on TV. He announced earlier this year his intention to put ALL immigrants in detention camps (concentration camps) and forcibly deport them. After his election in 2017 - he put a halt on all Muslim travel into this country - INCLUDING returning American citizens I witnessed some of this myself as I was traveling biweekly from my home in California to and from east coast and midwest.

If people ignored what they heard with their own ears straight from the trumpsters mouth or witnessed people hauled out of lines to board planes - I rescued a coworker once and he was Indian not even middle eastern - who would have missed his flight because TSA was taking him for questioning. I had my own ID out as well as my boarding pass and was able to convince the guy that the person he was detaining was a coworker traveling to the same job for the same company - fortunately I look exactly what I am - an old white lady dragging a brief case on wheels.

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Wow! Thank you for having the presence of mind to rescue your friend. Much of what we saw happening with Trump was asJoyce‘s picture of the frog next to the pot: the heat was turned up and we didn’t notice. We were sometimes a bit numb and and not speaking up the way we are now.

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Thanks Valere, ordinary people like us are rarely presented with opportunities for action. I just happened top be at the right place. at the right time. Had it not been someone I knew, I doubt I'd have had the courage to interfere. The problem is we are so used to obeying the rules of law (thank goodness) that when bad laws are enforced we don't know what to do.

Take January 6 for instance; I had worked in DC long enough to have acquire some good friends there, so I was on the phone with one of them, I wanted to make sure he was ok. I doubt very much I'd have had the courage to go there and try to help the Capitol and DC police. I just watched that horrible attack unfold on TV and wonder how an American could attack their own Capitol building and their own legislators.

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Same. It’s so out of our realm because we have respect for our institutions. Now, the highest legal institution in our country has sitting justices with no self-respect and their presence has broken that institution. It’s not a place for on the job training. But the justices did not have the depth of character nor the mental ceiling required for the job. They have destroyed our ‘third check’ of our checks and balances. Most Americans sense something is wrong but haven’t the skills or will to track it. But ‘wrong behavior’ from SCOTUS is, as one of their own stated some years ago when he was required to define pornography: “I can’t define it but I know it when I see it.” It’s like ‘slippery behavior.’

We are lay people and we do not have the words to describe the shenanigans of the conservative members of SCOTUS, but we know slippery when we see it. They are supposed to give us their opinion on the law. Some of them are on the wrong side of the law if one includes how they themselves ruled in the prior pay for favors given vs. favors now promised Enron case.

They should recuse themselves. A preschooler in a good preschool knows he shouldn’t bite Celine or pull her hair to steal her snack treat cookie, even though he is bigger and ‘can’ do so or because she has a kind heart and thinks he is hungry so she hands over her cookie. They are taught these basic rules in preschool! These conservative SCOTUS justices are on the wrong side of the law and it’s clear that they did not have a foundational preschool - or the kind of training they needed at home.

I think SCOTUS should have their parents interviewed before they get the job. Trump had no preschool that could count for having NAEYC standards. Nor did he receive this critical early education from his parents or caretakers. It shows on him, and these particular SCOTUS. No core.

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Agreed, Valere. But the ONLY law on which they are supposed to give opinions is the Constitution of the United States AS written, not as they think it should be (seances don't count) My copy of the Constitution is only 26 pages long including the index so it's not like they are being asked to read a heavy tome that takes hours to read. Article 6 section 2 states clearly the Constitution is the "supreme law of the land" I think the reason it takes them so long to release a decision is i takes that long to obfuscate their reasoning so no one can figure how they reached the decision.

I think the Supreme Court Justices should NOT be appointed by politicians since apparently only about 30% of the Legislators are lawyers, and frankly I doubt that half of them know the Constitution as well as I do (and I majored in science not law).

Personally I would like to see Federal justices having to submit a resume and take a test similar to the one I took when I became a Naturalized Citizen on the Constitution and the Federal Government. They should also have to submit a sampling of their findings too.

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True this. The problem with the originalists on the SCOTUS Is they’re trying to make decisions on how THEY think the founders thought. So far they’re not using original data such as notes from Jefferson and others who were adamant about not having religion in the constitution. They have also implanted the idea that the founders were Christian. They were not, as we’ve discussed before: they were largely atheist with a few agnostic, and if they had a religion at all, it was Unitarian, but not with the trilogy - They came from the Dutch branch to escape that kind of religious thought. It’s not the same Unitarianism as we see in the United States today. Sadly, few Americans understand this They had had enough of crazy King George III, the head of the church of England. (You can read more about his mental condition by reading William McNeil’s ‘plagues and peoples.’ They didn’t want to be within 10 feet of a religion in their new government, but these guys on SCOTUS today want right wing Christian nationalist Evangelical influences. So far as taking a test, that would be just fine except they don’t have a moral core. So they can cognitive test till the cows come home and show how smart they are, but unless they have a moral core, they’re not able to tell right from wrong as a preschooler can when they have a good preschool education. Our argument with them today is because they do not have a moral core. We’re not arguing how smart they are. I personally don’t think Clarence Thomas has a high mental ceiling, but George H.W. Bush Sr. was looking for a ‘yes person’ with whom he could chuck off all the boxes. My own PhD was in educational policy studies and my study was on democracy in education. My program required a strong history and political science component as well as cultural anthropology and philosophy. So that kind of study should inform one that the foundation of our democracy framed by our constitution is choice. Choice is the cornerstone of democracy and Trump tried to take away the very foundation of our constitutional rights: he tried to take away our vote and replace it with HIS choice. Now the election interference case in New York is showing that he again tried to take our choice by covering up who he really is. That’s why I write a lot on the Joyce’s Substack. I’m furious that anyone would take away my choice of candidate - and bottom line, that’s what we’re fighting for. Let’s say it out loud: the Supreme Court justices are trying to justify that Trump broke the law of the land when he tried to take away our choice. And there’s no other way to say it. I grew up on my mom‘s lap, slobbering on my overalls, crawling around on my pink nap blanket while she sat at League of Women Voters board meetings - and I held the same board position - Education chair - for 25 years myself as I sat on a State board for League of Women Voters. Our right to vote with our own choice is primary. I don’t care if your vote is a write in, but you must have choice. That’s why I’m so intent on reelecting Biden because he understands that. We do not live in the 1700s. We live now. The original Constitution document had nothing about religion in it, but the right wing Christian nationalist evangelical MAGA and Kevin Roberts from The heritage foundation are trying to insert it. Kevin Roberts should have his PhD stricken from him. He is revising history. He’s a revisionist because he has a PhD and flaunts it, and those who are too easily impressed by dots and dashes and letters after someone’s name think he is writing something factual. He is not. He is writing revisionist history. And any jackass with time and money can get a PhD. Some graduate faculty even write dissertations for their students so they can graduate more students, gain higher graduate numbers and go up the ladder of the academic career path to deanship. We know who they are. But one who has gone through the rigor of a valid study can recognize a valid theoretical construct when they see one and they can recognize ‘missing’ and ‘fraudulent data’ when they see that too. Kevin Roberts writes revisionist emptiness from fraudulent data. Where is the American Historical Association on the writing of this doofus? Why aren’t they meeting on withdrawing his PhD? William H. McNeill would turn over in his grave at this. I would think his PhD can be revoked because he’s falsifying data. Again, AHA needs to look at him. It should be in their interest to clean up the profession. Their standards are plenty high, and I’m wondering how he slipped through the cracks. My opinion.

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Wish I could double like. Thank you for this post Valere. I majored in Bilogy/Chemistry, then combined those two majors to get an MA in physiology. I taught school 15 years at Junior High 2 years in college and 2 more years as a substitute so I'm quite impressed wit your PhD in educational policy studies. Sometime I'd love to have a chat with you on individualized education.

You are correct that the two things the Framers of the Constitution and the Founding Fathers were adamant about NO monarchy and NO state religion. In fact the first phrase of the First Amendment clearly states: "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of Religion" How any one in any position can twist that to mean they were all Christians who wanted a State Religion is beyond my imagination. They fought the entire 8 year, 4 month Revolutionary War to get out from under the control of the Monarchy - yes I know their battle cry was no taxation without representation, but they wanted no part of monarchy benign or otherwise.

As for knowing what was in the minds of those 70 men who sat at different times to write the Constitution, as I've said frequently "Did they hold seances or use ouija boards" No matter how they phrase it NO ONE knows what people were thinking who have been dead for 200+ years. And nothing in the Federalist Papers suggests a longing for religion or Monarchy or any other form of authoritarianism. I don't care if Trump is smitten with Hitler's form of fascism The Founding Fathers were not, Hitler and Mussolini were not even born then.

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Fay — see my post.

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These Christian Nationalists are quietly putting in place people to facilitate STEALING the election. This will start at the county level: we can’t certify this election because of possible fraud!

Remember, whatever they accuse our side of doing will be EXACTLY what they are doing. The voter fraud will be fraud the Christian Nationalists committed.

Stop the Steal will be chanted as they steal the election.

I do not believe Cristopher Wray and Merrick Garland are up to the task of stopping what’s coming. And I’m not sure Wray even wants to…

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Thank you!

I think we need to use the arts- specifically film and storytelling - to educate Americans about the horrors of living in a dictatorship. We should use that word more often than 'autocracy' which may not be understood by many. Here's the start of a list for for an online free film festival, what should be added? I have seen all these films, they are powerful

-Missing (about Chile's Pinochet) https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0084335/?ref_=m_ttls_tt_45

-The Lives of Others (German film about East Germany Stasi) https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0405094/

- Z (about the Greek junta) https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0065234/

- Mothers of the Plaza de Mayo documentary (Argentina during the junta which arrested and "disappeared' many) https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0089460/

And feature film about same topic The Official Story https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0089276/

And more on this list: https://www.cracked.com/image-pictofact-7758-12-movies-about-the-dangers-of-fascism

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Wow, terrific film list!

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Just when you thought it was safe to go outside again......trump on trial, etc., along comes trump & his manifesto for a 2nd trump presidency. Kristi Noem made a vital mistake in admitting that she shot her dog in the face, probably not her 1st such kill, her ranch could be riddled with shallow graves. She could've gotten away with killing a random Democrat, but not a 11 month old dog she couldn't train. Guess she didn't want to pay a professional, go figure. So, trump's Time Magazine interview should be a FREAKING WAKE-UP CALL to any slumbering "ah, Joe Biden has this in the bag" types. trump plans to brew up some of the nastiest coffee ever served to us while he staffs his administration with a bunch of inexperienced "we're gonna reek havoc on America" types you'll want to move to Canada because of. Better VOTE BLUE!! Canada may close its borders and not let you in!! They won't want any of you NON-Voters who sat at home instead of doing the semi-hard work of standing in line to cast the MOST IMPORTANT VOTE OF ALL OF OUR LIFETIMES! I share Joyce Vance's pieces every time to my Facebook page hoping my friends and others will take the time to read them. I fear 90% don't read them. I hope you are at least doing the same. She's right: we are ALL in this together, and if we don't win the race, we are history. As in: no more Social Security payments to me, no Medicare to me; probably no Veterans' Benefits to me or to you either. I don't want to be forced to go back to work, but I'd have to. What will that look like in a trump America???? I don't want to know!! I yield back my time.

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For some reason, a look at what a Trump future would mean reminds me of the movie Soylent Green. Under tfg, our country will fall apart....the Great Recession was nothing compared to what he will cause.

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At least Soylent Green was protien. You might miss your neighbors though.

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Very well stated, Bill. Chilling.

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I put several other's on FB also when I think it will make an impact. I can only hope.

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I have been considering becoming an ex-pat if Trump wins reelection. Canada is too cold for my old bones. What other places look appealing?

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Austin, my girlfriend says there's a good sized Ex-Pat group in Ecuador. I think they used to be known for their large shrimp, too. Good hunting.

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Thank you Bill and girlfriend.

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Joyce, please ask authoritarianism expert Professor Ben-Ghiat, if she believes that you and other outspoken public media figures will be targeted for prosecution for committing sedition if Trump is elected.

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