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I was surprised that Judge Engoron caved and let him speak, after running a pretty tight ship with the trial. An unfortunate mistake, and it is disturbing to think he did so because of the threats. NOTHING is gained by bending the rules for him.

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Enough. The title says it all.

Wonderful piece today Joyce.

Enough of trump's boorish antics

Enough of his childish rants

Enough of the vitriolic rhetoric

Enough of his threats fomenting violence

Enough of republicans making excuses for him

Enough of the fealty of the far right to him

Enough of the courts accomodating him with special treatment

Enough of him commanding the nation's attention

Enough of him driving the news cycle

Enough of the media both sides arguments

Enough of the bogus investigations the republicans are engaged in to impugn Biden

Enough of his lies

Enough of the...this list is almost endless.

Just ENOUGH!!

Let's destroy this fool at the ballot box.

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I agree - great article Joyce! Bob, you have very clearly stated what I sm feeling! I was just thinking earlier this week how tired I am hearing about him. The media just keeps repeating everything he says. My news feed is filled with stuff about what he said or did. ENOUGH! Just cover the facts and stop giving him the microphone. I also agree the courts need to be crystal clear on not giving him special treatment- needs to be the same as any other defendant, up to and including punishment for contempt.

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Sometimes I feel like tuning out the noise, but we must remain vigilant. We can't become numb to it.

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I agree. But I do think taking breaks from all the media is important to my mental health 🙃

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That's actually one of retrumplican's tactics, make everyone so disgusted with politics that they say enough, walk away and DON'T EVEN VOTE.

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You're so right! I am thoroughly disgusted with the media!

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What is the media doing to incur your wrath? I am indebted to the media for keeping me sane. These substacks allow me to bare my soul. I read certain columnists because they do excellent research and share what they have learned. I read certain newspapers because their reporters work hard to learn facts and relay them to us readers. If the media bothers you, quit reading and watching thoughtful TV news. . . but when you do you will be uninformed, like the MAGA crowd, and will probably embarrass yourself. The media is our friend. You can draw your own conclusions, but to put "the media" silent would destroy our democracy.

Should Donald be re-elected prepare to have less "freedom of the press" and eventually you will be afraid to speak out. He is suddenly declaring that he ". . . won't have time for retribution . . ." but like most things he says, that is a lie. It is one of the chief reasons he wants re-election. Every authoritarian is afraid of the media because that's what lets us voters know what is the truth and what isn't.

Joyce's contribution to us is helping us to understand the law. As she says, Donald refused to listen to the judge or to follow his instructions. That's the way he will govern.

JOYCE -- thank your for being willing to share your knowledge with us and with the media. You are a treasure.

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I love Substack media but check out the front page (digital) of the New York Times today where Trump is photographed (note timing before caucuses) beaming in a photo LARGE PRINT with story about some rubbish that college grads support him (having a meltdown so check details please) while in smaller print below a story on Biden something like his staff having a hard time keeping up with campaigning and world events. BIDEN BASHING in other words. I am so angry may have a stroke now but then I could not vote for Biden; check it out and decide if you really support the Grey Lady or whether a letter to the editor is indicated. What are non Stackers supposed to read for information? I have heard that the Times was biased against Biden but it is subtle so must look. Likely more apparent in opinions. I’m taking a break and will read again when my fury subsides; then write to the editor and post another note somewhere here for support. Opinion, Stackers?

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I don't she's referring to this article or substack, in general. And certainly not to Joyce.

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His outrageous behavior makes the news reporters jobs so easy. He's full of daily sound bites.

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Amen! Do not want to see his face, do not want to hear his voice.

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I have been posting on various sites I follow how absolutely sick and tied I am of his face, his name, just him being posted, talked about. If we would all stop talking about him he might go away.

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Let’s do!!

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yes enough is enough....I guess he is not a music fan either...

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I think Judge Engoron let him put his foot in his mouth.

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The substance (ha) of what he said isn’t the point. Parties who are represented by counsel in civil cases are not permitted to make arguments to the court (testimony yes, arguments no). You either have counsel or you represent yourself, but you can’t have it both ways. That’s called “hybrid representation” and it is not allowed. There just is no good reason to change a longstanding rule for him.

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I think this is perhaps the most surprising part of the court cases, how the judges seem to keep bending over backwards to accommodate Trump. This just gives him more power to spread his lies and distortions. He should be treated like any other citizen of the United States!!

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The entire Justice system including the FBI has bent over backwards to accommodate his antics beginning with Comey announcing Hillary's renewed email investigation but no mention of Trump's investigation for collusion with Russians followed by Mueller's temerity to prosecut and Barr's complete neutering of Mueller's report, on & on. Trump has always received special treatment like a spoiled brat . Their are a multitude of reasons why he should be locked up or exiled to Gitmo.

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Right! Trump absolutely deserves no special treatment. Any special treatment encourages other criminals to demand the right to do the same.

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Maybe they are remembering the bomb threats?

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No it’s not the point. But it was a bridge too far.

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founding

There are two points here: the legal point about special treatment and the message this rant sends about the qualification of Trump for any important position in terms of his temperament, situational awareness, and impulse control.

Believe me, i understand Trumps need to “go off” like this. Anyone who has dealt with toddlers does; we can all translate this into toddler-ese; in essence it’s what another commenter said: “Waaah!” from the perspective “the world does revolve around me” ( my son had a T-shirt with that on it once).

Was it smart to rant on against and to the face of the judge--the single person who will decide the outcome of this trial? Sometime between the ages of three and 77 most of us would come to recognize this as a poor tactic. Do we want to have a president who will rant on and on about his grievances rather than developing and executing some strategy that improves our position?

If a trumper crossed my path, i might ask him what they thought of this rant-- not whether they thought it was all true (engeron biased; james prosecuting for political reasons) -- but whether saying so at that point was likely to improve Trump’s position.

Frankly i thought this was insane.

I had forgotten until this minute, but a couple of decades ago i was allowed to speak in court before the sentencing at a criminal bench trial (i was not the defendant). Guess what? I started by saying “Thank you, your honor, for allowing me to speak....”

Self-entitled rant or respect?

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Bandy Lee and many other mental health professionals have written and spoken to inform the general public of the overt signs of Trump's mental illness. He is not behaving like a child.

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Neuropsychologist here: In addition to the personality disorders, T is showing significant indications of cognitive decline which will tend to exacerbate the existing conditions, especially by increasing impulsivity.

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Sociopathic narcissism. Presents in childhood, and there is no treatment. It's hardwired.

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Yeah, I know this is a malignancy not childishness.

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Bandy Lee has discussed that the reason he is behaving as he is because of his deficiencies since childhood. His lack of gaining a moral code, for example impacts how he behaves today. He simply has been in her words “deficient since childhood.“ you are correct, he is not behaving as a normal child, who has received early childhood education, whether at home or in a formal ECE setting. He is behaving as an angry, trapped, out of control child having a temper tantrum. But he’s an adult with no control. He can be manipulated, but he can’t be controlled. Look for the bailiff common slap, some handcuffs on him if he behaved like this in Chutkans court.

Joyce plainly acknowledged that no good can happen by giving him the favor of speaking in court. He can only do this after he has been found guilty, and before he is sentenced.

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It is the norm during criminal sentencing for the court to hear statements from victims as well as the defendant. The NY civil case operates under different rules.

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founding

I understand these two instances were @ two different points in two different kinds of trials.

I was not a victim; i was the defendant’s mother

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Thank you again Liz for being so patient and explaining law to all of us.

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Not fair to toddlers. Seriously.

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Jan 14·edited Jan 15

Trump did not have any early childhood socialization whether in home or in an accredited early childhood formal education setting. He’s deficient. He makes the case for a strong accredited early childhood education for all children because he’s become a malignant narcissist. And you are absolutely correct: little kids learn how to be members between the ages of two and five or six or seven, and they don’t need a formal education setting: they need parenting. This is something Trump lacked.

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Jan 14·edited Jan 14

Barbara, your example of between the age of three and 77 is incorrect. People who have had early childhood education either formally or in the home stop being tyrants and start being community members whether it’s only in our family between the ages of two and five. Some later, and still have a few temper at age 7. Trump is deficient and always was. This is why he looks to someone like Putin as his “daddy.“. He is unfit for the office of president because he doesn’t have a high mental ceiling that would allow for strategic planning, and he has zero to low impulse control. But I wanted to point to the age of becoming socialized as that of early childhood, and one doesn’t have to have a formal early childhood education, although that would be great if we could supply that for every single American: parents can very well teach these kinds of moral growth events in the home. There’s plenty of theory to draw on such as Piaget, Montessori, Csikszentmilhalyi sp

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I didn’t mean that literally: i said 77 because that’s how old Trump is; just wanted to emphasize how pathological he is.

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Jan 13·edited Jan 13

I am naive. Two things that occurred to me are (1) the judge may be trying to avoid any appeal that could slow down a decision no matter how stupid the appeal and (2) he knows what the facts are and can’t be influenced by Trumpbabble. The unpredictability (or predictability) of the Trump lower courts and the Supreme Court of Trump (SCOT) may warrant treating this unique case somewhat uniquely.

Any possibility.?

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In my experience (almost 30 years as a staff attorney in federal trial and appeals courts), refusing to allow a represented party to make a closing argument would never be grounds for appeal. It just sets a terrible example to give him privileges that are afforded to no other litigant.

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Thank you. I just wonder if the judge, knowing that the supreme court isn’t what it used to be, is trying to avoid anything that will slow this case down. Or is there no appeal from this type of case?

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He can (and will) appeal, but since it is a state-court case the circumstances under which he could end up in the SCOTUS are extremely narrow and likely unavailable.

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founding

I wonder if they can appeal the civil finding of fraud or just the amount of the fine?

I am surprised he managed to keep his mouth shut during the appeal on the immunity issue. He didn’t stay for the prosecution argument; I wonder if he could have stayed quiet for that.

He didn’t have Engeron’s permission to speak, so count this his first “outburst”. Given the five more trials he faces and their appeals), i’d put the over/under for outbursts @ all six trials @ 2.5, with “outburst” defined to include non-responsive statements on the witness stand that the jury is instructed to disregard(see note); Outburst @ a SCOTUS hearing counts double. (Imagine him sitting there making faces @ his justices, maybe pushing his lawyer away from the podium?)

With an known unreliable defendant what steps can be taken to avoid a mistrial?

(Note) In this case he’d likely be charged with murder -- what with the trampled (trumpled?) dead body of his lawyer lying right there and all.

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He can appeal both liability and penalty.

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Jan 14·edited Jan 14

You are incorrect: Engoran gave him permission to speak. how this is handled in court without having permission to speak is the judge calls, the bailiff, and the bailiff walks over and removes him from the courtroom. That’s the standard. So you’re not going to see this outburst

In Jack Smith’s courtroom with that judge — or Trump will be removed. Joyce was referring to the fact that the judge gave Trump permission to speak. He originally attempted to put strong parameters around how, and if he could speak in the email chain with Trump’s attorneys. He couldn’t get written agreement so he denied him speaking, but in court, he changed his mind and allowed Trump to speak: with the agreement that he wouldn’t “go off.” Trump had no intention of keeping any agreement. He went off. The judge asked the attorneys to “control your client.” We know how that goes. What Joyce is saying is no other judge should give this kind of extra lenient permission. And I doubt that judge Chutkan will.

And if he goes off on a rant or a tangent, she will order the bailiff to put on the handcuffs.

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I saw a post earlier from Glenn Kirchner stating that he believes that Engoron allowed the statement from Trump to aid in an appeal attempt.

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Jan 13·edited Jan 13

Mary, to aid Trump or the course of justice?

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Justice - my apologies for not making that clear!

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Liz Brown, in both of your posts, you are preaching it Girl!

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Joyce inspires me!

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Make that *all* of your posts Liz!

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You are very kind, thank you

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Liz and Pamela, being neither lawyer nor psychiatrst, i so appreciate this discussion, with your contributions from law and psychology/psychiatry whatever. Regards, Barbara B

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I'm also neither, Barbara, but I've learned (a lot!) on the job of parenting two children (twins) with mental health challenges. The chaotic behavior of the bipolar one overshadowed the depression of the other. The bipolar is now under control with good meds and compliance. In the meantime, the depression progressed right under our noses, and we missed the drug use that went with it. Accidental heroin overdose took that one. I never ever anticipated the gut-wrenching 24-hrs a day work that was required of us as parents, for at least a decade. And still we lost one. We have two other kids without challenges so we have three stable grown kids and a baby grandson. For that we're grateful!

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founding

Oh, Pamela, my heart grieves with you.

We too missed the drug use for a while, and as it escalated. Almost lost him a few times (suicide, ODs). Finally he was hospitalized several times for surgery for terrible infections/abscesses likely caused by xylazine (sp?) mixed with heroine. A hospital social worker talked him into rehab and got him admitted right out of hospital which set him on the road to recovery. I shake or cry when i think of it.

Special prayers for the surviving twin.

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Jan 14·edited Jan 14

I am so sorry for your loss Pamela.

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Joyce is right, we really are in this together. Thank you for sharing your experience here.

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founding

Unless you bring him into the courtroom gagged and shackled in a soundproof glass cage (like the Putinists do), Mango id going to do his show. Now more than ever.

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Jan 13·edited Jan 13

Could not resist: MAGA stands for Mango And Gang of A-holes

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He puts his foot in his mouth every other day. And his voters love him for it. It is impossible to understand.

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Against sheer stupidity there is not much you can legally do, unfortunately.

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He is their cult leader. When this is all over, and he is locked up for the rest of his life (see George Conway’s recent interview, I believe it was January 6 on the Lincoln project for which he was a cofounder) his cultists will return to their prior stage. This is what happens in prisons with malignant, narcissist, cult leaders, and in businesses as well, where malignant narcissist leaders also reside.

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Trump is a media genius.

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Maybe, but he could also be like a groomer, knowing eactly what to say and how to behave to get people on his side.

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Unfortunately he is.

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I'd like to believe that every time Trump opens his mouth (which is often) he's moving at least one voter to the D column.

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One would hope so!

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founding

And earning $20/MAGAt

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I'd like to hope so

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founding

100 voters (thinking big here in snowy Michigan)!!!

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Woot!!!

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Not likely.

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deletedJan 13
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“His people.” His people are not enough to elect a president.

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They will be, if enough Dems and other people who give a damn don’t get out there and vote!

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And not go for a 3rd party.

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founding

David didn't say rabid R voters; he said "one voter". Independents, disaffected R's (believe me, there are more than you think), and Women will win this election for the D's/Biden.

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Thank you for picking up on this Sheila.

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Washington post has an article about a group called American Bridge 21st century that is doing a large ad campaign in some swing states to attract people who support Trump but may be persuadable. They will be airing testimonials by ordinary people explaining why they won’t vote for trump again. I like their approach and targeting.

I think Lincoln Project puts their ads out in Trump friendly areas/outlets.

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founding

Sorry i misstated: i think the testimonials are from voters who didn’t vote for Trump and again won’t

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Now, this is the point. We do not serve our cause by going on about how many anything. Spend our time and energy on putting these horrible spectacles in the public and let thinking people make their decisions. At some point we have to get out the vote and have confidence in the citizens to see, hear and do the right thing.

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founding

Targetting especially women.

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Me too! The "bomb threat" worked! YUP! Just reinforces Trumps tactics even more so!

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Jan 13·edited Jan 13

Nope: the judge gave him a chance to speak with parameters clearly understood so the issue of him having voice would not be in an appeal. So., he was given voice. Judge Engoran is not afraid of him. He is the decision-maker on the amount to be Trump will be fined. Trump has done himself no favors at all.

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founding

Actually the judge did not give Trump explicit permission to speak, if i understand correctly. He asked Trump in court if he would adhere to guidelines. Trump did not answer but took off on his defamatory victim screed. Now the judge did allow it to go on for 5-6 minutes with maybe one admonition to Kise to “control your client”

I dont suppose any part of that violated the existing gag order (as reported it was mostly about Engoron and James) and it was in court. If it did i hope Engoron imposes a fine-- in the range $100k - $1M.

Kise ought to be sanctioned for saying ( in the email exchange, not in court)

( as reported by Courthouse News Service):

“This is very unfair, your honor,” Kise said in a Wednesday email. “You are not allowing President Trump, who has been wrongfully demeaned and belittled by an out of control, politically motivated attorney general, to speak about the things that must be spoken about.”

I don’t know that kise/habba took any shots @ the judge in his closing but believe it’s reported and he did mention James pursuing a political agenda.

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Jan 13·edited Jan 13

PS: When Leticia James brought the case, she was well aware that two Deutsche Bank bankers, who had put together the original loans on the commercial side of the bank, had committed suicide and a third person who was the stepson of one of the bankers, who killed himself, died as a young person with an unexplained death. The mother of the young person, and wife of the banker, who killed himself suddenly became afraid to talk about either of the deaths. Leticia James was well aware that the Trump family had received hundreds of millions of dollars from Russia. Despite the shadiness, Trump testified that Deutsche Bank was happy with the loans. Ivanka testified that Deutsche bank was happy with the loans. (After the commercial side came under scrutiny, Jared Kushner introduced Trump to his private at Deutsche Bank and don Don and Ivanka trotted in to a meeting with the private banker and obtained new replacement loans. So that new loan along with Russia money kept Trump out of foreclosure. In court, Trump testified, and Ivanka testified that the bank was happy, and the loans were paid off. They were paid off with illicit money. Of course, the now retired private banker, who made millions of dollars from her commission from the loans was happy. The commercial bankers, who had initially set up the loan that got transferred to the private banker were not so happy because they hung themselves. But Trump and Ivanka are happy, because they and Deutsche Bank are happy despite bankers killing themselves, and a third young person (he had become a whistleblower after his stepfather died by suicide ) dying with no explanation. Even having this backstory, Leticia, James, stuck straight to the evidence in the spreadsheets and the testimony from accountants and Trump executives from Trump through under the bus, of course. Of course, Trump’s attorneys will never acknowledge any degree of accountability for fraud. Their response in this fraud case is the same as it is in the cases brought by Jack Smith for the DOJ: it’s a politically motivated witchhunt. Nothing can be further from the truth, and they have to say something as they lose. lose lose. When Trump is spending the rest of his life in jail they will still maintain. It has been a witch hunt.

The attorneys are losers, but one of them save $3 million in advance (not Habba). New York is like a waterbed: anytime anyone rolls over everybody in that town knows it and they all know exactly who Trump is and they know the dirt. But kudos to Leticia James for taking the highroad. Kudos to the judge for taking the highroad and allowing Trump to talk. He just secured their would not be an appeal on that basis.

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ps #2 read “Dark Towers’

By New York Times, finance, editor, David Enrich. This book was on the New York Times list as the best seller, listed by the Wall Street Journal as the best seller and details the backstory of Trump’s dirty fraudulent business dealings. So it’s all published and easy to find. I’m guessing Leticia James and Judge Engoren have read it. They know all about Trump‘s threats and dirty deals and Russia money.

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Thanks for the "Dark Towers" information. I'll add it to my Donald book collection, which is huge. I look at that bookcase and can hardly believe I have read them all, and spent that much money. I am truly a Donald junkie and appreciate your contributions to Joyce Vance's very valuable postings, along with all the others who have commented on this thread. My thanks to you all !

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The judge gave him permission to speak. If he had stood up and started yammering without that permission, the bailiff would’ve hauled him off.

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founding

Agree. The judge was padding against an appeal.

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Thank you. Judge and Leticia James know exactly who this blowhard ilow level narcissist is. Leticia, James said the first day she ever had a press conference when charges were made against him “we’re not afraid of you.” They are simply taking him to task. Judge will fine him the larger amount Leticia has asked for, and and his and his sons’ business careers in New York. Anything less will be an insult to the people of New York. They know full well he has been doing business on Russia money and the judge and Leticia are not going to appease the sleaze bags. He is finished. Trump is someone who only cares about himself. And nothing could show that more than the way he took the MAGA votes, telling them that he cared about the middle-class of America, then, the very first thing besides taking credit for all the hard work Obama did on the Patients’ Act act was to sign a tax cut that benefitted the one percent. It’s so curious to me that these people can’t see that: he has betrayed them. He has betrayed all of us, but he has betrayed his base who voted for him. I think we’re probably going to see more antics from don Don on January 16 at E. Jean Carroll’s trial. If he shows up. This one is for the jury to determine how much he owes her. He’s already been found guilty of sexual abuse and the judge said “You raped her” when he appealed. So he’s just trying to claw back the $5 million they’ve already awarded her and tried to keep the award from increasing. He is so done, and he’s going to spend the rest of his life in jail. Don’t appease him or his MAGA followers.

My opinion.

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founding

Amen!

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Har! I should’ve been a preacher. Instead of academe, researcher:))

I can’t emphasize enough that the house is burning and we have to get behind Biden, because, unless we do, we will not have a democracy: we will have a theocracy. That has been the plan of the right wing evangelicals for the past 50 years. Trump thinks he is using them, but in reality: they are using him.

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I think he should have stuck to the principled rules other defendants Must Abide by...but I also think the judge is protecting his decision on appeal. Any other court can’t look at anything the judge has done and say “the toddler” didn’t get a fair shake in his court & the judgement.

Maybe if they’d hold his lawyers in contempt & fine and jail them - they’d quit representing this ass And TRY to control him!?!?

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Not sure it is an unfortunate mistake. Engoron has played it well I think. He showed patience and let trump talk. The more the orange turd talks the more he’s digging his own grave. Next time will be the right time to expel him from court and lock him for a while. And nobody could fight back, because enough is really enough. Thank you.

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When you are digging a deep hole, it's time to stop digging. Trump doesn't get restraint. Can't get it, is more like it. Reminds me of Trump atty John Sauer playing cute with Judge Pan in the DC Circuit appeal on Tuesday. Loser argument; dug himself a big hole. Dumb. Period.

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Exactly Jack. Without permission to speak the judge will order the bailiff to put the handcuffs on and removing him from court. He will go to jail for a while.

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I disagree. Although we all know how tfg works, he was allowed to establish in this controversy that he cannot follow a fair and reasonable standard in proceedings. Let him be a bully and a fraud all he wants in each case.

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He was allowed a privilege that is never allowed other litigants in the same position. He must be treated exactly like other litigants if we truly support equal justice under law. No special favors simply because he’s an obnoxious bully who once held elected office.

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Again, thank you Liz.

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Thank you Joyce!

This is how Sociopaths get away with their behavior. They have no shame or conscience, so they push and push until everyone is totally exhausted, and give in.

It seems like the bomb threat worked.

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A psychopath not sociopath. Very imp distinction.

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Read the book “The Sociopath Next Door” by Marta Stout. My mother is a sociopath, so I’ve read much about it, plus had therapy. Trump fits the profile file.

Malignant narcissistic sociopath.

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I am a retired behavioral analyst contracted to federal law enforcement for 27 years. The distinction is the presence or absence of guilt per the DSM. A sociopath knows it is wrong does it anyway. The psychopath has no sense of wrong which is readily apparent in the pig. The distinction is critical bec the absence of awareness of wrong is critical to how to predict what they will do and therefore how to prepare to stop them.

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I respect your knowledge, and granted, I am not a mental health professional.

But isn’t part of Jack Smiths argument going to be that Trump KNEW he was inciting an insurrection, knew that trying to influence the electors was wrong, was told it was, but did it anyway?

That fits your description of a Sociopath. Trump knows what he is doing.

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The distinction of psychopath or sociopath, in either case what's to be looked at is the danger to themselves and others.

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Jan 13·edited Jan 13

Sabrina, would you happen to know, should Trump be convicted, could he be ordered to have a psychological examination by the court? Bandy X Lee, MD, a psychiatrist has said that he is a malignant narcissist. And have other psychologist and psychiatrist from Harvard, who have written and published with Dr. Lee (see also ‘Unfit’ hey documentary filmed in 2020). They claimed that if Trump sat in front of them, he was the sort of person who would lie to their face, but they had so many films. They observed that they were able to diagnose him from the films. They also went on discuss the Goldwater rule, that came into effect during Goldwater s campaign Win he was labeled with mental health condition without being examined in person. After those false statements were made, the retirement by APA was that the patient had to be examined in person, but these psycho, largest and psychiatrist refuted that. They said they can get a much clearer picture of who Trump is by watching his many, many events that are filmed without needing to meet in person with him as he would lie. Given that he is a malignant narcissist, according to these medical professionals, and no question he is a sociopath, I do you believe a diagnosis could be made, because it would most likely be in person as he lies the minute he moves his lips. By the way, I do have the book, “sociopath, next-door.“ A group of my former neighbors at a condominium complex were passing copies around when we were confronted with a sociopath neighbor. She was diagnosed as a ‘borderline’ personality individual, but she also carried a knife in her purse, and actually targeted certain individuals, and she told horrific lies. She was convicted for harassment.

So, are you saying that Trump no sense that he is committing crimes? he certainly behaves that way. But Dr. Lee had some interesting comments about his self identification as a deity. I’m sure it’s all very complicated, but he does say on the campaign trail “I’m the chosen one..” And just the fact that he didn’t lift a finger to stop the desecration of the Capitol, while he knew death threats were made against his vice president, and Nancy Pelosi, and has never acknowledged the deaths of seven individuals and more than 140 serious injuries to police officers, indicates a lack of a moral code of knowing ‘right’ from ‘wrong.’

Regardless of whether he is psychopath or sociopath, do you agree that we should not appease him? Do you agree that are appeasing him will not make him behave any differently than his horrid criminal behavior? He has a criminal mentality. Gregg Barak, a member of Joyce’s Substack, is a criminologist who has written a book about Trump. “Criminology on Trump.” It’s on my list to read and I think it just came out as a paperback. He looks at Trump over the past five decades.

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He’ll pass..watch..

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Its not a matter of "passing." A good forensic psychiatrist does not rely on the content of the persons conversation. Everyone they interview lies! Its way more complicated than that. Theres no pass and fail unless the person is or was psychotic at the time the crime was committed. Trump is not psychotic.

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Hi Barbara, Do you mean it would be rigged? His niece, MaryTrump, thinks all the boxes would be checked on an evaluation for narcissist. he can’t plan or make decisions..

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Psychology here. Trump is a bit slippery to diagnose and of course none of it has been in person. Seems to me he does know, many times, what the truth is and he decides to lie. Once he starts telling the lie, forcefully and repeatedly,, he seems to slip into a kind of grandiose state in which his narcissistic "I create reality" is

driving the bus. At that point its hard to tell whether he is "deciding" to tell a lie.

I thinks he slips between sociopaths and psychopaths in different states.

The malignant narcissism is present all the time.

Diagnoses are not always so clear cut and black and white. People move in and out of "ego states" in which perceptions, beliefs and behavior can shift. I think that's one reason he's so confounding and people disagree so much on these points.

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Thank you Susan. Your reply makes the most sense to me after reading (again) the https://www.choosingtherapy.com/sociopath-vs-psychopath-vs-narcissist/ site. There is no mutual exclusivity. He is a melange of mental illnesses and clearly at the far (bad) end of the spectrum. Incredible that we all need to spend so much time defining his predominant mental state, but that is our world with mango-man (thx BK) in the race for POTUS.

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Thank you Susan.

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I am not an analyst. I read an article by an analyst who claimed she was a psychopath. At any rate she said it's not that she doesn't know right from wrong (as defined). She knows what she does others may believe wrong but she doesn't believe what she does is wrong. But in the article she suggests that because she does understand what is perceived to be right and wrong she can conform her behavior to a great degree. Not to seem contradictory, all other info I've ever heard on the subject by others in your field conform to your opinion. What I also believe has been written, and I don' t know if it is psychopathic or sociopathic, but that some type of pathy projects whatever they do wrong upon others--it is their fault not mine. And that is absolutely what Trump does. He makes "deranged" comments about "deranged" Jack Smith ; Biden stole the election he tried to steal; ad infinitum. That seems to be an awareness that what one is doing is wrong by trying to cast one's own bad actions upon another. I would be interested in your thoughts on that aspect of Trump.

But perhaps you already hit the nail on its head. Perhaps Trump is a prime example of pigpathy.

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Jan 13·edited Jan 13

Ken, Neither am I a medical professional, but I think you hit the nail for what Dr. Bandy X. Lee, a Yale forensic psychiatrist (she writes with and collaborates with the psychologists and psychiatrists from Harvard with whom she writes). She has spent a 25 year career working in prisons and businesses with malignant narcissist cult leaders (as she defines Trump). Dr. Lee and the other Harvard psychiatrists and psychologists in 'Unfit' have all described Trump as having traits of a malignant narcissist cult leader (so perhaps psychopath as a separate diagnosis or sociopath as the separate diagnosis). He does something that she called 'transfer.' So he has these vile traits that he transfers to others. He is deranged (he knows this), and calls Jack Smith 'deranged' and he tried to steal our votes and says that 'Biden stole the election.' These medical professionals are quoted in the documentary: 'Unfit' 2020. This doc is about a hour or so - and truly worth making time to see. And I just watched Dr. Lee on a youtube that was published on January 6, 2024 on the MeidasTouch, The Weekend Show, interviewer: Anthony Davis. Dr. Lee states that once the cult leader is gone, almost all revert back to their prior state - so in the case of the Trump MAGA cult followers, disgruntled with a propensity for violence, but not being violent. So once he is convicted in a court of law and sentenced to jail, the followers will fall away. The youtube might be something you want to watch for yourself - and please get back to me should I have anything incorrect in quoting her here. One more interesting fact: the APA opposed the Harvard and Yale psychologists and psychiatrists and said they were 'politically biased.' (Nothing could be further from the truth). The APA president was a pharmaceutical psychiatrist. (So what IS that? Someone on the payroll of Big Pharma??). He was successful in his discrediting campaign - but 27 other prestigious psychiatrists in Europe made their own separate confirmation of the work of Dr. Lee and her colleagues, using hundreds of hours of analysis of videos and in some cases live broadcasts. They said it was more valid as data than having a client in front of them because such a client might lie. If I can locate the work to the work of the 27 European psychiatrists I will post it here. Bryan McEwan an attorney on this Substack posted it a few days ago.

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Don't overlook the reason B. Lee sees her duty to inform you and me about her observations of Trump behavior, is that he is a very serious threat. We all know that, I'm just reminding.

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thank you very much. I will seek video shortly. Transference is something I have noticed in my seventy odd years, even in myself. Normally we tend to dislike in others the traits we dislike in ourselves and try to transfer our bad characteristics as characteristics in others we dislike. The angry person dislikes anger when displayed by others. Trump carries transference into another world altogether. There is definitely a childish petulance in his transference, "i didn't take the cookie ma--billy did" . There was certainly an emotional immaturity in Trump's growth. That could be a psychosis of a different sort.

The removal of a cult leader does not always lead to the disbandonment of the cult.Removing Joseph Smith did not end Mormonism, although the Mormon "cult" eventually became religious belief. L. Ron Hubbard's death didn't end scientology. But there were conditioned disciples ready to maintain the cultic authority.

Despite the wanna-be republican autocrats though I don't believe there are any waiting to replace him in the sense of his cultic grip on the "maga" cult because he of course denies any the right to succeed him.

My worry though is not that those embraced under his cultic personal deviltude ( I prefer not to say magnetism because he repels me as a devil, sometimes OI envision him when hearing him with horns protruding and surrounded by flames-I guess that's my transference of my extreme repulsion I've never projected upon any other), nevertheless my worry is not that the cultic following will not be left into darkness, but how are they going to be welcomed and who will be the welcoming committee. I fear many on the left will not want to embrace them.

One who might is Joe Biden. Whatever his policies may be, the man has become an emotionally more humane in his latter years and when Trump is finally removed, it may be up to him to find the olive branch to heal the wounded left behind.

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Oops, it is Martha Stout, not Marta.

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The guy is 100% certifiable

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Not so sure..the pendulum swings back to Engoron for the $ before the end of the month..should be a pretty interesting day..

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I cannot tell you how tired I am of Fucking Donald Trump. I want this man out of my world. That's not a threat, btw, but man, everyone, including anti-Trumpers, some of them are the worst. Enough posting everything the man says and does.

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Jan 13·edited Jan 13

Tonight on PBS News Hour, I was dismayed to hear David Brooks' candor while talking about the Iowa Republican Primary. " Trump will win the Primary and be the Republican nominee." Then there was the interview with an Evangelical pastor who says how Trump got things done; how great men of the Bible did crimes and misdemeanors, too. Yada Yada, as if Trump were rational. Not a word about the insurrection, sexual misconduct, fraud, and apparent treason.

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I watched the PBSNewshour, too (as I do every evening). It never ceases to amaze me that so many Trump apologists are provided with the opportunity to tout his “strengths” and his value to his MAGA supporters.

I believe it’s important to offer balanced reporting. But it’s another thing entirely to give extended and repeated air time to Trump’s campaign and to give persistent voice to those who continue shouting the big lie.

<sigh>

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Jan 13·edited Jan 13

He won't have his MAGA cultists once he is incarcerated. They will go away. See Bandy X. Lee, MD, Yale forensic psychiatrist. You can google and find a youtube interview with Anthony Harris, Meidas Touch, The Weekend Show. Her book is 'The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump.' This interview was January 6 or 7, 2024.

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Lawrence O'Donnell has clearly said, and said why, the media are not going to be there for us.

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Example of willful ignorance!

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I my opinion, evangelicals are a cult, just like MAGA.

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Ok, but our Leader is waaay above trump, loves doesn’t hate, prince of peace and all that.

Seriously, i avoid calling myself an evangelical now, with the reputation that has been claimed by the hypocrites who idolize Trump. ( repeating the error of worshipping the golden calf--everything old is new again. )

Our little joke.

If you stood accused of being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict you?

Many supporting Trump are more like the Pharisees than like Jesus. Jesus called them a “brood of vipers.” They might have trouble being convicted. Trump wouldn’t even get indicted.

Sigh.

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But we all know 45 will win the Primary and become the republican nominee.

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I expected a lot better from David Brooks.

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Do you really expect better? He's never shown any real ability to discern reality. He's another talking head who is in the biz for the recognition and, dare I say it, the money.

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Rachel, he gets paid, for sure. I've seen him capably speak out against Trump/MAGA so he understands reality. He is certainly not the most forceful voice. He published essays I liked early on in 2017/2018. I wish he'd be more blunt, tbh, but that is not his style. I respect him for being more than a talking head yet he can seem like it depending on my frame of mind in the moment.

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Jonathan Capeheart is the voice of reason in that duo. I muted the segment featuring the pastor and was dismayed at the length of the interview! We have been watching PBS News Hour every night for years. Lately all I do is yell at the TV when it's on. So disappointing.

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I do believe the big dollar donators have gotten to PBS, too.

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Amen to that!

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Jan 13·edited Jan 13

Katherine, Are you raping him? If you are tired of f...g him, I know hundreds who would spell you. I personally wouldn't touch the A-hole. Ewwwwwwww!

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BTW - her use of "F*ng" was as a pejorative adjective.... not a verb😆🤮

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founding

Eeeenglish diffikult

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I totally agree.

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Well said, Joyce. I say “Lock him up”. I can’t believe what he has been able to get away with during these hearings. No more!

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No Monica. You added “during these hearings” when you should have left it at “I can’t believe what he has been able to get away with.”

Joyce is right on -- we have to quit being afraid. Period.

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Leslie, you got it right! “Only Thing We Have to Fear Is Fear Itself” (FDR) We, the people should overcome our fear of this constant and repeat LOOSER, and stop him..."We can be Heroes on just one day" (David Bowie) On Nov. 5, 2024 we together will be heroes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXgkuM2NhYI&ab_channel=DavidBowie. Love this song.and him.

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Anyone else would have been held in contempt and put in jail if they what tRump did, violating every condition the judge set forth. Fine him $200,000 and throw him in jail.

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Fines mean nothing to him because he didn't earn a single penny to pay the fine(s) with. Put him in jail instead. Bubba will keep him safe. It's all good.

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Yup. My mom’s $50/mo helps pay for all his malfeasance.

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Derek, it makes me sad to hear that. Was she a victim of the "small print" scam that was on the original form from Trump and his minions? Give her a hug for me, because she probably needs one.

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The fine need to be lots more than $200,000. and it needs to come out of his personal funds, not out of his political contribution pot

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Totally agree. Since Trump did his usual routine of persecution and insults I can't imagine any other judge will let him speak. E. Jean Carroll's attorney has already written to the judge in the second defamation case to be heard next week about Trump's behavior. Maybe, in the long run, it was better to let him rant and rave where, as you stated, no jury would be influenced. But, all the other cases have juries so maybe this just shuts him down going forward.

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Jan 13·edited Jan 13

He was famous in the case of E. Jean Carroll for saying he was a 'victim' and not allowed to attend the court hearing because of 'business in Scotland. The trial, was with a jury and held in New York in May 2023. In the meantime, Trump scheduled a nonsense pleasure trip to his golf course in Scotland for the week of the trial (where they don't like him and don't want him and fly a huge helium balloon of him with his orange body, hair and diaper with a smart phone in his hand. It takes a few hundred protestors to hold the thing. And they chant to him to 'go away, we don't want you here'). So Judge Kaplan in E. Jean's case, which was a jury trial due to end with the case to go to the jury on a Friday night, when he heard Trump was whining about 'I can't attend the trial because my plane does not come in until Saturday' said: "OK fine, I will extend the trial until next week and you come ahead and testify." So the judge was prepared to delay the trial and Trump would not schedule to attend the Monday after his plane landed. The jury had heard the taped deposition in which Robbie Kaplan (not related to Judge Kaplan) had questioned Trump about his recorded Access Hollywood remarks about being able to 'grab women' because 'that's what stars can do.' The jury found him guilty of sexual assault on May 9, 2023 and awarded E. Jean $5 Million. The next day, Robbie Kaplan and E. Jean Carroll were on a media interview television show and the host asked E. Jean about the outcome: that Trump was not found guilty of rape. E. Jean said: "Oh no, he raped me." Then Trump was off to the races with that and said things such as 'I don't even know this crazy woman' etc. and said some defaming things about E. Jean. So Trump appealed the case and Judge Kaplan heard the appeal in July 2023. At this hearing, Judge Kaplan said: "You raped her. The jury found the sexual assault verdict because that is all the statute in the state of New York allows. But rape is penetration and does not need to be the penis. You raped her." Here's the link to that story in the Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/07/19/trump-carroll-judge-rape/

On June 13, 2023 appeal trial, Judge Kaplan set January 16, 2024 for the jury award trial and in July 2023 Judge Kaplan said "all that needs done at this January 16, 2024 trial is for the jury to determine the award to E. Jean Carroll." Following setting the trial date, the judge stated that the jury will have anonymity because of Trump's threats to court personnel and judges in other trials. So Trump, who would not attend the actual abuse trial in May 2023, has stated that he will attend this January 16, 2024 trial. I don't know if he wants to speak to the jury. E. Jean's attorney, Robbie Kaplan has now written to the judge a few hours ago and said that there needs to be parameters about what Trump can say if he is a witness and chooses to speak. You can read about the letter Robbie wrote here: https://www.abc27.com/news/top-stories/ap-top-headlines/ap-columnists-lawyer-warns-judge-that-trump-hopes-to-sow-chaos-as-jury-considers-defamation-damages/

If Trump gets on the witness stand, Robbie can cross-examine him and ask him about his Access Hollywood statement that it's permissible for a star such as he to grab a woman in her area. If he just shows up and glares at the jury to threaten them, the judge can probably boot him from the courtroom.

Trump (who wields power and has stated that he can shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and not lose a single voter) allegedly caused Elle Magazine to fire E. Jean Carroll. Elle Magazine was her source of income for many years. E. Jean Carroll has testified this was an implied threat to her personal safety and was not secure enough to confront Trump until the Me Too movement. So this is a case more or less of a judge bending over backwards to make sure Trump had no grounds for appeal and he appealed anyway. Trump always wants to be perceived as the victim and that everyone should therefore 'feel sorry for him.' One final note on narcissism: I'm not a medical professional by the way: but the famous diagnosed narcissist Bernie Madoff gave just one interview after he was found guilty of a ponzi scheme that wiped the savings of thousands of people. The interviewer asked Madoff 'why he did what he did.' He responded: "I wanted people to feel sorry for me." Who does that sound like? The key to dealing with this windbag narcissist is to not appease him. He has managed to get some traction with his terrorist gang of MAGA on January 6, 2024, but they will be gone like rats swimming from a sinking ship after he is incarcerated for the rest of his life. George Conway stated just three nights ago on an interview with one of his Lincoln Project co-founders that Trump would spend the rest of his life in prison. And that the SCOTUS knows that Trump participated in the insurrection at the Capitol. Btw: I'm an old hippy dippy. I did not believe in incarceration prior to the January 6, 2021 insurrection, the ensuing trials, Trump's not acknowledging the deaths of 7 individuals, hearing that he thought it was fine that the mob was looking for Nancy Pelosi and Mike Pence and one of the Proud Boy leaders said they would have hung them had they found them, the violence that Trump endorsed that caused Nancy Pelosi's home to be invaded and her husband attacked, his statement that he will be a dictator on 'day one' should he be elected; the template for Project 2025 being that of Hitler in the Third Reich (see Cynthia Fountaine, ' Complicity in the perversion of Justice: The Role of Lawyers in Eroding the Rule of Law in the Third Reich' 2020. You can google to read document: it details exactly what Project 2025 plans for the US Department of Justice should Trump win. I heard him say in an interview that "I get along very well with dictators." He needs to be convicted in a court of law and locked up with no chance of parole.

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Thank you for yet another of your fine "deeper dive" missives Valere (BTW - you are now my fave "hippy dippy" 😆😉). I must admit that I did not pay much attention to the E. Jean trial because I honestly felt he was probably just going to get away with it just like he always seems to... but she really showed her strength of character and stuck by her guns (and kudos to her clearly superb lawyer, Kaplan). And since he couldn't possibly shut up he had to spout more invective/slander and will have to be in court again and lose again to E. Jean (which I will definitely pay closer attention to).

I concur totally on everything (ie, all these trials and more to come and his vindictive nature) that adds up to him warranting the rest of his life in prison (with his poor health, maybe 10yrs?). He truly is the quintessential exemplar of a malignant sociopathic narcissist that will be used as a reference case study in curricula henceforth just below the level with the likes of Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Amin, Gaddafi, et al. (whom he would have loved to more fully emulate).

My other major concern is that he is a master at hiding and diverting his wealth and will make every possible attempt to pay nothing and instead enrich family and allies. Hopefully, there are forensic accountants already on this quietly in the background. 🙏🙏. Frankly, seeing him essentially penniless would be more satisfying than seeing him in a cell.

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PS: the E. Jean trial is January 16, the day after the first stage (local) of the Iowa caucus. They have several stages, I think six total before they get to the final state determination.

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Jan 14·edited Jan 14

Thank you Marc:) I did mention I’m the old hippie, dippy Kumbaya, to sort of let people know that I’m the last one to get on board with putting Trump in jail for the rest of his life. Maybe it’s because his horrid behaviors and his alignment with the evangelicals to use them and of course they are using him as well, to establish the theocracy they’ve tried to establish for the last 50 years, ranks Trump for me ranks a little bit above where you’ve placed him in the lineup. Because of my background in academe, starting out in cultural anthropology, and ending up with a PhD and long career in policy studies, I always want to go back to when the lava drives, to discover ‘why’? ‘ How could this be?’ and my middle name might as well be “why.” and since you want to take the deep dive as well, I wanted to share where my “quest” took me over the last several months. I’m deeply into democracy: democracy of education as the institution, and law as the institution. And I was seeing the parallels after Jeffrey Clark, Trump’s co-conspirator in Georgia and listed as an unnamed co-conspirator by Jack Smith in the DC case (I think he is co-conspirator number six in that case), was reportedly at a think tank in Washington DC. By the way, I’ve never heard of the think tank Jeffrey Clark is working out of. It wasn’t the heritage foundation. And I thought to myself “who on God‘s green earth, would hire this doofus, who doesn’t have enough brains to come in out of the rain?” So I was following what he was doing, which was calling attorneys across the United States asking them if they’d like to join the DOJ under Trump . My next thought was “that’s kind of getting ahead isn’t it?” so a little bit tangential but separate, I became aware that Kevin Roberts at Heritage foundation was writing publications about the founders of the United States being Christian. Nothing could be further from the truth. The founders had fought in the revolution to get rid of King III the head of the church of England, and they were absolutely determined not to have religion in the constitution. And a study of who they were, and what their religions were indicates from personal records that they wrote that some were atheist, most were deist (who thought ‘well God might’ve created all this, but he’s given us the job of taking care of it however best week and manage’); and some were Unitarian from the branch in England that said “we don’t believe in the Trinity.” Not a Christian in the bunch - no matter how much resist history anyone wants to try to use and no matter how much lipstick they want to put on the pig it’s still a pig, and it is not a constitution that has religion in it not one time. Jefferson was determined, even though he was in the thick of the French revolution as a diplomat for the new United States, to keep religion out. He was in the middle of watching what was going on in France. He sent his personal assistant back to the founders to insist on having a Bill of Rights and having religion kept out of the constitution. So that was a given. So I refuted Kevin Roberts and his nonsense. I wrote an OpEd to WaPo but I wasn’t published. And then I thought “well, Kevin Roberts is just an outlier wingnut, not to worry.” (how wrong I was! ). Then I became very worried (project 2025 had not been reported on, but Trump had declared that he would be a dictator. He also had said several months prior that he got along very well with dictators and of course I was on my usual rant about how he had invited Thacci from Kosovo, the guy who sold human body parts of his opponents, to the White House the eve of the 2020 election, and how Jack Smith had arrested Thacci as he was boarding the plane for the US on the eve of November 3, 2020, and thrown him in jail at the Hague). Then project 2025 was published and simultaneously as how things do work in my universe, I discovered this journal article by Cynthia Fountaine, “Complicity in the perversion of justice: the role of lawyers in ending the rule of law in the Third Reich”, 2020. You can Google to find it published by St. Mary’s University. This is the template for 2025. So my “why” then became “ why has Trump been aligned with the evangelicals when he believes in nothing and they are Christian nationalists, and why are they calling him the orange Jesus when they know he believes in nothing?” So very soon that question was answered by a video posted online by a former insider Evangelical whose father was a megastar in the evangelical church movement, but whose father believed in the rule of law and democracy. His father filled the Madison Square Garden and such back in the day, and they were very close family friends of all the off the rails evangelicals. The guy pointed out clearly that, these families who run the show now are off the rails mentally and off the rails morally. Nonetheless, as he points to, they have used Trump, because they want to establish a theocracy, and they know religion was never in the constitution, but they want to restructure the constitution to include that it was founded Christianity. That’s how Trump was able to stack the supreme court of the United States with justices, who include Amy Comey Barrett who was raised as a cult member for the catholic church. So the fact that Kevin Roberts at the Heritage foundation has been publishing articles about the founders being Christians, which is a lie and Kevin Roberts at Heritage foundation is also running the show for project 2025 and keeping up the big lie that the election was stolen, and he knows it was not, is indeed alarming - and he’s not simply the benign religious right nationalist I thought he was. He wants nothing more than to establish a theocracy in the United States and take us back to somewhere between Iran and the 12th century of the Catholic Church, when we had the inquisition, with Galileo being threatened with the torture machine at the Vatican and Descartes, who was on some metaphysical path of self discovery on a tangent that excluded the Catholic Church and was writing that “aha, I have more power than I thought I did and perhaps I decided to, and had something to do with my own creation” and then he was subsequently threatened with the nut crusher, leading to him escaping to Scandinavia (where he stayed, and wrote for the rest of his life, under the protection of one of the monarchs there - long way from the Vatican). That’s what we can look at going back to: that kind of thing. More scary, the evengelical theocracy leaders want bring back slavery. In addition to bringing back slavery, they will execute gay individuals, and of course they are using Trump’s neo Nazi inclinations that will discriminate against Jews and everyone who is not white. I wonder what he would do with me? A Buddhist/Hindu/Christian/New Age hippie dippy white heterosexual woman who is spending every waking hour working towards his defeat? I will be opposing Trump until I stop breathing. I will be standing in the middle of my canyon road with my middle finger raised. I might be at Gitmo. Maybe Malta? But the house is burning and our focus every day, while we are having first coffee, on getting Biden reelected. So now we know the connections between Trump and the right wing evangelical nationalists who have named him their orange Jesus of all the crazy titles. But he’s a useful idiot, a malignant narcissist, cult leader, who’s going to spend the rest of his life in jail. They know he is going to be convicted, the Supreme Court knows he initiated and fostered the insurrection, and they are getting rid of hiim. Trump knows this as well. But they’re not stopping at is establishing a theocracy. So when all is said, and done, we have work to do to roll up our sleeves and protect our constitution after Biden is elected. Thanks for listening to my rant. I don’t know if I’ve fully explained how much of a pacifist I was, protesting, Vietnam, protesting prisons, promoting freeing all the prisoners except the most violent, murderer and rapists (but that is what Trump is), Kumbaya, save everyone, one person at a time with organic health food, cooking and raising herbs, and believing Trump could change. I don’t believe that now by the way, but I do believe his followers will largely revert back to the way they were once their cult leader is put away. Because they need a cult leader to follow and they won’t have one. You can find the YouTube video I referenced on the former Evangelical leader’s son on Midas touch, a program called “burn the boats” with a picture of the fellow with one of Trump and he’s quoted as saying “you disgusted me.“ I hope you find it. I’m quite sure it was recorded on January 6, 2024. The interviewer is a young black woman who is a graduate of oral Roberts university, so she certainly knows the underbelly of the Evangelical church movement. You can let me know what you think. My take is that this fellow is being gut level, honest and he’s giving us some iinsider-insider information as a warning we should take heed to.

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And no chance of access to the internet while incarcerated. Also, where he is incarcerated should be a close held secret.

He’s now continuing his insurrection inside the courtroom!!!

If the likes of Gorsuch & Thomas think they’ll be respected or effective cause they’re His Boys- he only respects & likes the image in his mirror. The Courts Will Be Useless

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Let's hope this is the case.

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This may be your most important essay.

It is TIME.

It is time to stop coddling the toddler.

Enough of weak intentioned gag orders that accomplish nothing.

Bomb threats. Swatting. Social media threats. A freaking insurrection!

I believe the first judge ( and May it be Chutkan) that delivers a real consequence to this aberration of a human being will go down in history as the one courageous servant of the people who stands up for what is right.

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Yes, Absolutely!

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Reminds me of all the republicans who have said - with conviction - that either Trump has learned his lesson and won’t repeat bad acts or that he would never go that far or that he was joking when he made crass, demeaning or threatening comments. Erdogan had his own reason for allowing Trump to speak and it was, no doubt, to remove any argument on appeal that the court was hostile to him. Even so - I agree wholeheartedly with you - Trump cannot be given special privileges. He abuses any concession he’s given. If he were ever re-elected, this country would suffer irreparably. Impossible to understand why he still gets so many opportunities to abuse the system.

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Jan 13·edited Jan 13

I am compelled to correct you! I apologize. That's Judge Engoron, Erdogan is a whole different problem.

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So sorry - I let autocorrect slip by me!

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Jan 13·edited Jan 13

I know! AC reminds me of an elitist! "No, it's this way. I know best."

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Does anyone else wonder if there is someone sitting and reading as we type? I tell myself "No, that wouldn't be possible" and then another suggested correction pops up in the midst of my typing. Whoever is doing the correcting has saved me many times, whether machine or computer or whatever.

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Jan 13·edited Jan 13

Read today's TCinLA "A Fine Mess"....Tang Face regards the entire judicial system with contempt and used the concession by Judge Engoron to openly display that contempt in his courtroom rant. He did just about everything but spit on the judge. Roy Cohn taught him well. Tang Face has been undermining justice in this country ever since the 70's and since he's always gotten away with it--why would he expect anything different now? I think (hope and pray) that he will receive his comeuppance soon and find himself in corner from which he cannot bluster, lie and bully his way out.

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Trump has learned the lesson alright. He has learned that he can always get away with breaking the rules. That he will never be held accountable for behavior or lies. I dearly hope that he is forced to unlearn these things this year.

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Completely agree. I’m tired of hearing worries about him unleashing more violence if... enough. He already has. Allowing his boorish behavior hasn’t and won’t stop that from happening.

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He is a bully and needs to be stopped. I understand the threats he causes people and their families and the expense to keep them safe. Like all bullies, we cannot give into his behavior. It's not easy. But he can't away with these threats! Throw his butt in jail.

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Jan 13·edited Jan 13

Exactly: do not appease him. You are spot on: he has unleashed his violence. See Bandy X. Lee, MD, a Yale psychiatrist who has worked for 25 years with malignant narcissist cult leaders in business and prisons. Once the cult leader is gone, the followers revert back to their prior selves. Perhaps not all 'wonderful' but not committing violence since the cult leader is gone. He is instigating and initiating the violence and needs to be locked up for the rest of his life (as George Conway stated in an interview three days ago: "Trump will spend the rest of his days in jail."). He has already done the worst possible to us. The only thing worse would be to have him elected and become a lifetime dictator. We need to do everything we can to elect Biden and appreciate him for who he is and what he has done as a leader of our democracy. We need to recognize that right now the house is burning down: no time to back off.

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founding

Excellent points, Joyce. It IS enough. We have watched, heard, had to bear, been subjected to, lost sleep over, etc. the behavior, words and actions of Trump. Every day is a new horror. And it is enough. No more special treatment for someone who has no respect for those who have the power to deny his rants.

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Bravo, Joyce!!! Your every word is right on. I am a lifetime federal prosecutor and it is dismaying to see the justice system I am so proud of battered, its employees threatened, and courts act as though they are frightened of Trump. None of the defendants I prosecuted would have been able to do any of these circus stunts. While I am proud that the judiciary has, sometimes seemingly alone, stood up to Trump in many ways, it must do more, as tighten up its rules, as Joyce says. I would add that it is time the litigation and appellate timetables should be tightened as well for responses and appeals, and for issuing opinions (all judges should get another clerk if it would help). One small example: We have to hope the D.C. Circuit will not allow Trump to take a full 90 days (!) to decide whether to file cert - ridiculous. If the judicial system is to lead the way to normalcy and the rule of law, it must pick up its pace, across the board and not lag months and years behind (see non-action in the classified document case and nearly two years for the courts to rule on Mueller's attempts to make Don McGahn testify). Justice delayed is justice denied - for us all. Thank you, Joyce, for saying enough coddling is enough - let's show Americans what a fully functioning, equal-treatment justice system we do have. Americans need to see it and understand it, and be proud of it. Our country needs it.

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It's called "normalizing behavior", wherein repeated actions unchecked lead predictably to further disruptive behavior, and eventually tRump will be *expecting* of carte blanche treatment inside the courtroom. Indeed, if a judge, either federal or state, later comes down hard on his loudmouth petulance and dedecorous rants, tRump will simply say, "I'm being muzzled by Judge ***, because I got to speak at these other appearances!" And precedence is created...tRump is skilled at bullying and intimidation, he uses his "President tRump" as a cudgel and threat, and until a presiding judge actually orders the court bailiff to "take him down", he will persist with his boisterous acts irrespective of repeated warnings and prior cautioning.

There's only one way to shut this vulgarian up, and that's to keep him out of the witness box until allocution is granted following conviction. Not only are his lawyers laboring mightily for delays, tRump himself has taken on the role of degrading and humiliating orderly courtroom procedures in order to delegitimize the entirety of legal action against him.

And guess what, at this point he's winning.

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Perhaps what is needed is a soundproof box where he can hear what’s being said but can’t speak. (I know, I know, with a special mic that goes to his lawyers’ earpiece) What a spectacle that would be, and a well-deserved one.

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I’m sorry - I just re-read this and it is even more hilarious. You need to send it to the New Yorker so they can draw a cartoon…

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Oh my DW!! You are so spot on creative and a splendid problem solver.

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Well thank you. I can imagine him blowing a gasket. How humiliating!

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founding

DW, you can buy from Putin!

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Jan 13·edited Jan 13

Well said, Lance. Your last sentence speaks volumes. Unfortunately, every word of it is true.

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Jan 13·edited Jan 13

No, he isn’t winning. He is a hyena. And a blow hard grandstander. He also wants to be a victim, which is a narcissistic trait. George Conway said two nights ago (after Trump’s rant at Judge Engoron), that Trump is going to spend the rest of his life in jail. We are winning. Biden will be reelected, and Trump will be in jail, which is a win as well.

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Jan 13·edited Jan 13

Valere, your description of him was a lot kinder than I would love to post. I cannot understand, for the life of me, how naive his cult members are, feeling so sorry for their Royal Highness. He doesn't deserve sympathy OR empathy from anyone, He brought all of his problems on himself.

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PS: i’m an old hippie, dippy, and prior to January 6, I largely did not believe in incarceration, except for the most egregious crimes, such as rape and murder. Before he was convicted for raping. E. Jean Carroll, my page was turning. After January 6, and the desecration of the capital and the deaths of Innocent police officers, and injury to more than 140 of them, I recognized the danger of Trump, but I thought he would simply go away. That didn’t happen. Our house is burning, and we have to do everything possible to prevent the monster from returning. I do recognize that a number of his followers will simply leave him after he is incarcerated because their cult leader will be in jail and that’s what they do: they revert back to their prior state. However, there are Cult followers in jail right now, for lengthy sentences, some as many as almost three decades who still believe Trump won the election, and they were wrongly sentenced. He needs prosecuted for manslaughter.

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Cult members are unable to see the real nature of the cult leader. Once he is in jail, they will revert back to their previous state. Cult leaders are charismatic by nature, narcissistic: he is a malignant narcissist. He will say whatever he needs to say to capture them and use them. Not much use for them while he’s in jail though. The only thing we need to do while the house is burning down is vote, vote, vote, and make sure Biden is reelected💙

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Jan 13·edited Jan 13

I agree. Just read an online ad, reminding people about Trump's dream of destroying our democracy. And it ends with "Vote for Biden, even if you hate him!"

Strange ad, but it does make a point.

I miss Steve Schmidt, who used to be with The Lincoln Project. Those people are former Republican supporters who finally figured it out. They had wonderful commercials on TV, ahead of the past two elections. They did email one to me recently.

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I think we’ll see some more ads from Lincoln Project. I saw George Conway being interviewed the other night. He said Trump would spend the rest of his life in jail and that they were thinking of more ads etc..

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Jan 13·edited Jan 13

Lance, I am wondering why manslaughter charges are not brought against him - but perhaps Jack Smith needs to wait for a conviction on the insurrection issue (and he will be convicted - and even if that is appealed, the SCOTUS knows he was the initiator, instigator, and promoted the damage). Seven people died on January 6, 2021. More than 140 police officers suffered physical injuries and numbers of people suffered PTSD, which can be more debilitating and longer lasting than a physical injury. And that does not include the more than 100,000 individuals (I am completely unaware of a real figure here), of folks who died from Covid during his tenure because he is so incompetent that he lacks any ability to do a minute of strategic planning and his ego would not allow him to listen to any of his advisors. So he may have more charges: and a psychiatric evaluation required. Then he will spend the rest of his life in jail.

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Indeed... just hoping that this is another "trump card" in Jack's hand. Frankly, it is totally warranted - but ideally should also tie the aiding and abetting folks like Cruz, Hawley, Gosar, etc as accomplices.

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Not in my eyes Vance not in many others.

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You are so right on! Beyond gaining privileges no other defendant has, he is doing long-term damage to the public’s respect for our legal system.

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Trump gets too much air time on the media, leniency with judges, bullies anyone who disagrees with him, demeans the current president, and GETS AWAY WITH IT! For heaven's sake, can't someone rein in this runaway "undisciplined child pretending to be an adult" who wants to be PRESIDENT of this country? God help us!

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Not only that, but he's "taking names" as we speak/write, so if he does happen to be POTUS, he can check his list --- twice --- to offer some retribution to those he dislikes and those he believes crossed him over the last 78 years,

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I too am really hoping the judges in the other trials are not so lenient. He definitely does not deserve special treatment and it's totally unfair to those who have been held in contempt for the same behavior.

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The issue of “special treatment“ is also playing out in Colorado and New Hampshire, where he has been ruled off the ballot. It will be interesting to see how the SC rules

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You mean Maine, not New Hampshire, right?

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I wish it was New Hampshire (where I live). I admire Shenna Bellows' courage. Well, at least she's here in New England.

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I know, I was hoping the answer was, New Hampshire joined CO and ME! Shenna Bellows made a foundational, logical decision, whether you know the difference between ME and NH or not…

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Thank you Joyce, If that were any other person in America, that person would have left the courtroom with his or her hands handcuffed behind their back and hauled off to a holding cell while charges were written up against them. Just because Trump throws his usual two year old tantrum, is no reason to treat him as a two year old and give him a time out. Regardless of his spoiled brat behavior he is over 18 and therefor legally considered an adult, he may be childish and stupid in his behavior but he's running for the highest political office in the land, for goodness sake, treat him as though he were a real adult, no matter how stupid and illiterate he may be.

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EXACTLY! Thank you!

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