I was surprised that Judge Engoron caved and let him speak, after running a pretty tight ship with the trial. An unfortunate mistake, and it is disturbing to think he did so because of the threats. NOTHING is gained by bending the rules for him.
I agree - great article Joyce! Bob, you have very clearly stated what I sm feeling! I was just thinking earlier this week how tired I am hearing about him. The media just keeps repeating everything he says. My news feed is filled with stuff about what he said or did. ENOUGH! Just cover the facts and stop giving him the microphone. I also agree the courts need to be crystal clear on not giving him special treatment- needs to be the same as any other defendant, up to and including punishment for contempt.
What is the media doing to incur your wrath? I am indebted to the media for keeping me sane. These substacks allow me to bare my soul. I read certain columnists because they do excellent research and share what they have learned. I read certain newspapers because their reporters work hard to learn facts and relay them to us readers. If the media bothers you, quit reading and watching thoughtful TV news. . . but when you do you will be uninformed, like the MAGA crowd, and will probably embarrass yourself. The media is our friend. You can draw your own conclusions, but to put "the media" silent would destroy our democracy.
Should Donald be re-elected prepare to have less "freedom of the press" and eventually you will be afraid to speak out. He is suddenly declaring that he ". . . won't have time for retribution . . ." but like most things he says, that is a lie. It is one of the chief reasons he wants re-election. Every authoritarian is afraid of the media because that's what lets us voters know what is the truth and what isn't.
Joyce's contribution to us is helping us to understand the law. As she says, Donald refused to listen to the judge or to follow his instructions. That's the way he will govern.
JOYCE -- thank your for being willing to share your knowledge with us and with the media. You are a treasure.
I love Substack media but check out the front page (digital) of the New York Times today where Trump is photographed (note timing before caucuses) beaming in a photo LARGE PRINT with story about some rubbish that college grads support him (having a meltdown so check details please) while in smaller print below a story on Biden something like his staff having a hard time keeping up with campaigning and world events. BIDEN BASHING in other words. I am so angry may have a stroke now but then I could not vote for Biden; check it out and decide if you really support the Grey Lady or whether a letter to the editor is indicated. What are non Stackers supposed to read for information? I have heard that the Times was biased against Biden but it is subtle so must look. Likely more apparent in opinions. I’m taking a break and will read again when my fury subsides; then write to the editor and post another note somewhere here for support. Opinion, Stackers?
I have been posting on various sites I follow how absolutely sick and tied I am of his face, his name, just him being posted, talked about. If we would all stop talking about him he might go away.
The substance (ha) of what he said isn’t the point. Parties who are represented by counsel in civil cases are not permitted to make arguments to the court (testimony yes, arguments no). You either have counsel or you represent yourself, but you can’t have it both ways. That’s called “hybrid representation” and it is not allowed. There just is no good reason to change a longstanding rule for him.
I think this is perhaps the most surprising part of the court cases, how the judges seem to keep bending over backwards to accommodate Trump. This just gives him more power to spread his lies and distortions. He should be treated like any other citizen of the United States!!
The entire Justice system including the FBI has bent over backwards to accommodate his antics beginning with Comey announcing Hillary's renewed email investigation but no mention of Trump's investigation for collusion with Russians followed by Mueller's temerity to prosecut and Barr's complete neutering of Mueller's report, on & on. Trump has always received special treatment like a spoiled brat . Their are a multitude of reasons why he should be locked up or exiled to Gitmo.
There are two points here: the legal point about special treatment and the message this rant sends about the qualification of Trump for any important position in terms of his temperament, situational awareness, and impulse control.
Believe me, i understand Trumps need to “go off” like this. Anyone who has dealt with toddlers does; we can all translate this into toddler-ese; in essence it’s what another commenter said: “Waaah!” from the perspective “the world does revolve around me” ( my son had a T-shirt with that on it once).
Was it smart to rant on against and to the face of the judge--the single person who will decide the outcome of this trial? Sometime between the ages of three and 77 most of us would come to recognize this as a poor tactic. Do we want to have a president who will rant on and on about his grievances rather than developing and executing some strategy that improves our position?
If a trumper crossed my path, i might ask him what they thought of this rant-- not whether they thought it was all true (engeron biased; james prosecuting for political reasons) -- but whether saying so at that point was likely to improve Trump’s position.
Frankly i thought this was insane.
I had forgotten until this minute, but a couple of decades ago i was allowed to speak in court before the sentencing at a criminal bench trial (i was not the defendant). Guess what? I started by saying “Thank you, your honor, for allowing me to speak....”
Bandy Lee and many other mental health professionals have written and spoken to inform the general public of the overt signs of Trump's mental illness. He is not behaving like a child.
Neuropsychologist here: In addition to the personality disorders, T is showing significant indications of cognitive decline which will tend to exacerbate the existing conditions, especially by increasing impulsivity.
Bandy Lee has discussed that the reason he is behaving as he is because of his deficiencies since childhood. His lack of gaining a moral code, for example impacts how he behaves today. He simply has been in her words “deficient since childhood.“ you are correct, he is not behaving as a normal child, who has received early childhood education, whether at home or in a formal ECE setting. He is behaving as an angry, trapped, out of control child having a temper tantrum. But he’s an adult with no control. He can be manipulated, but he can’t be controlled. Look for the bailiff common slap, some handcuffs on him if he behaved like this in Chutkans court.
Joyce plainly acknowledged that no good can happen by giving him the favor of speaking in court. He can only do this after he has been found guilty, and before he is sentenced.
It is the norm during criminal sentencing for the court to hear statements from victims as well as the defendant. The NY civil case operates under different rules.
Trump did not have any early childhood socialization whether in home or in an accredited early childhood formal education setting. He’s deficient. He makes the case for a strong accredited early childhood education for all children because he’s become a malignant narcissist. And you are absolutely correct: little kids learn how to be members between the ages of two and five or six or seven, and they don’t need a formal education setting: they need parenting. This is something Trump lacked.
Barbara, your example of between the age of three and 77 is incorrect. People who have had early childhood education either formally or in the home stop being tyrants and start being community members whether it’s only in our family between the ages of two and five. Some later, and still have a few temper at age 7. Trump is deficient and always was. This is why he looks to someone like Putin as his “daddy.“. He is unfit for the office of president because he doesn’t have a high mental ceiling that would allow for strategic planning, and he has zero to low impulse control. But I wanted to point to the age of becoming socialized as that of early childhood, and one doesn’t have to have a formal early childhood education, although that would be great if we could supply that for every single American: parents can very well teach these kinds of moral growth events in the home. There’s plenty of theory to draw on such as Piaget, Montessori, Csikszentmilhalyi sp
I am naive. Two things that occurred to me are (1) the judge may be trying to avoid any appeal that could slow down a decision no matter how stupid the appeal and (2) he knows what the facts are and can’t be influenced by Trumpbabble. The unpredictability (or predictability) of the Trump lower courts and the Supreme Court of Trump (SCOT) may warrant treating this unique case somewhat uniquely.
In my experience (almost 30 years as a staff attorney in federal trial and appeals courts), refusing to allow a represented party to make a closing argument would never be grounds for appeal. It just sets a terrible example to give him privileges that are afforded to no other litigant.
Thank you. I just wonder if the judge, knowing that the supreme court isn’t what it used to be, is trying to avoid anything that will slow this case down. Or is there no appeal from this type of case?
He can (and will) appeal, but since it is a state-court case the circumstances under which he could end up in the SCOTUS are extremely narrow and likely unavailable.
I wonder if they can appeal the civil finding of fraud or just the amount of the fine?
I am surprised he managed to keep his mouth shut during the appeal on the immunity issue. He didn’t stay for the prosecution argument; I wonder if he could have stayed quiet for that.
He didn’t have Engeron’s permission to speak, so count this his first “outburst”. Given the five more trials he faces and their appeals), i’d put the over/under for outbursts @ all six trials @ 2.5, with “outburst” defined to include non-responsive statements on the witness stand that the jury is instructed to disregard(see note); Outburst @ a SCOTUS hearing counts double. (Imagine him sitting there making faces @ his justices, maybe pushing his lawyer away from the podium?)
With an known unreliable defendant what steps can be taken to avoid a mistrial?
(Note) In this case he’d likely be charged with murder -- what with the trampled (trumpled?) dead body of his lawyer lying right there and all.
You are incorrect: Engoran gave him permission to speak. how this is handled in court without having permission to speak is the judge calls, the bailiff, and the bailiff walks over and removes him from the courtroom. That’s the standard. So you’re not going to see this outburst
In Jack Smith’s courtroom with that judge — or Trump will be removed. Joyce was referring to the fact that the judge gave Trump permission to speak. He originally attempted to put strong parameters around how, and if he could speak in the email chain with Trump’s attorneys. He couldn’t get written agreement so he denied him speaking, but in court, he changed his mind and allowed Trump to speak: with the agreement that he wouldn’t “go off.” Trump had no intention of keeping any agreement. He went off. The judge asked the attorneys to “control your client.” We know how that goes. What Joyce is saying is no other judge should give this kind of extra lenient permission. And I doubt that judge Chutkan will.
And if he goes off on a rant or a tangent, she will order the bailiff to put on the handcuffs.
Liz and Pamela, being neither lawyer nor psychiatrst, i so appreciate this discussion, with your contributions from law and psychology/psychiatry whatever. Regards, Barbara B
I'm also neither, Barbara, but I've learned (a lot!) on the job of parenting two children (twins) with mental health challenges. The chaotic behavior of the bipolar one overshadowed the depression of the other. The bipolar is now under control with good meds and compliance. In the meantime, the depression progressed right under our noses, and we missed the drug use that went with it. Accidental heroin overdose took that one. I never ever anticipated the gut-wrenching 24-hrs a day work that was required of us as parents, for at least a decade. And still we lost one. We have two other kids without challenges so we have three stable grown kids and a baby grandson. For that we're grateful!
We too missed the drug use for a while, and as it escalated. Almost lost him a few times (suicide, ODs). Finally he was hospitalized several times for surgery for terrible infections/abscesses likely caused by xylazine (sp?) mixed with heroine. A hospital social worker talked him into rehab and got him admitted right out of hospital which set him on the road to recovery. I shake or cry when i think of it.
Unless you bring him into the courtroom gagged and shackled in a soundproof glass cage (like the Putinists do), Mango id going to do his show. Now more than ever.
He is their cult leader. When this is all over, and he is locked up for the rest of his life (see George Conway’s recent interview, I believe it was January 6 on the Lincoln project for which he was a cofounder) his cultists will return to their prior stage. This is what happens in prisons with malignant, narcissist, cult leaders, and in businesses as well, where malignant narcissist leaders also reside.
David didn't say rabid R voters; he said "one voter". Independents, disaffected R's (believe me, there are more than you think), and Women will win this election for the D's/Biden.
Washington post has an article about a group called American Bridge 21st century that is doing a large ad campaign in some swing states to attract people who support Trump but may be persuadable. They will be airing testimonials by ordinary people explaining why they won’t vote for trump again. I like their approach and targeting.
I think Lincoln Project puts their ads out in Trump friendly areas/outlets.
Now, this is the point. We do not serve our cause by going on about how many anything. Spend our time and energy on putting these horrible spectacles in the public and let thinking people make their decisions. At some point we have to get out the vote and have confidence in the citizens to see, hear and do the right thing.
Nope: the judge gave him a chance to speak with parameters clearly understood so the issue of him having voice would not be in an appeal. So., he was given voice. Judge Engoran is not afraid of him. He is the decision-maker on the amount to be Trump will be fined. Trump has done himself no favors at all.
Actually the judge did not give Trump explicit permission to speak, if i understand correctly. He asked Trump in court if he would adhere to guidelines. Trump did not answer but took off on his defamatory victim screed. Now the judge did allow it to go on for 5-6 minutes with maybe one admonition to Kise to “control your client”
I dont suppose any part of that violated the existing gag order (as reported it was mostly about Engoron and James) and it was in court. If it did i hope Engoron imposes a fine-- in the range $100k - $1M.
Kise ought to be sanctioned for saying ( in the email exchange, not in court)
( as reported by Courthouse News Service):
“This is very unfair, your honor,” Kise said in a Wednesday email. “You are not allowing President Trump, who has been wrongfully demeaned and belittled by an out of control, politically motivated attorney general, to speak about the things that must be spoken about.”
I don’t know that kise/habba took any shots @ the judge in his closing but believe it’s reported and he did mention James pursuing a political agenda.
PS: When Leticia James brought the case, she was well aware that two Deutsche Bank bankers, who had put together the original loans on the commercial side of the bank, had committed suicide and a third person who was the stepson of one of the bankers, who killed himself, died as a young person with an unexplained death. The mother of the young person, and wife of the banker, who killed himself suddenly became afraid to talk about either of the deaths. Leticia James was well aware that the Trump family had received hundreds of millions of dollars from Russia. Despite the shadiness, Trump testified that Deutsche Bank was happy with the loans. Ivanka testified that Deutsche bank was happy with the loans. (After the commercial side came under scrutiny, Jared Kushner introduced Trump to his private at Deutsche Bank and don Don and Ivanka trotted in to a meeting with the private banker and obtained new replacement loans. So that new loan along with Russia money kept Trump out of foreclosure. In court, Trump testified, and Ivanka testified that the bank was happy, and the loans were paid off. They were paid off with illicit money. Of course, the now retired private banker, who made millions of dollars from her commission from the loans was happy. The commercial bankers, who had initially set up the loan that got transferred to the private banker were not so happy because they hung themselves. But Trump and Ivanka are happy, because they and Deutsche Bank are happy despite bankers killing themselves, and a third young person (he had become a whistleblower after his stepfather died by suicide ) dying with no explanation. Even having this backstory, Leticia, James, stuck straight to the evidence in the spreadsheets and the testimony from accountants and Trump executives from Trump through under the bus, of course. Of course, Trump’s attorneys will never acknowledge any degree of accountability for fraud. Their response in this fraud case is the same as it is in the cases brought by Jack Smith for the DOJ: it’s a politically motivated witchhunt. Nothing can be further from the truth, and they have to say something as they lose. lose lose. When Trump is spending the rest of his life in jail they will still maintain. It has been a witch hunt.
The attorneys are losers, but one of them save $3 million in advance (not Habba). New York is like a waterbed: anytime anyone rolls over everybody in that town knows it and they all know exactly who Trump is and they know the dirt. But kudos to Leticia James for taking the highroad. Kudos to the judge for taking the highroad and allowing Trump to talk. He just secured their would not be an appeal on that basis.
By New York Times, finance, editor, David Enrich. This book was on the New York Times list as the best seller, listed by the Wall Street Journal as the best seller and details the backstory of Trump’s dirty fraudulent business dealings. So it’s all published and easy to find. I’m guessing Leticia James and Judge Engoren have read it. They know all about Trump‘s threats and dirty deals and Russia money.
Thanks for the "Dark Towers" information. I'll add it to my Donald book collection, which is huge. I look at that bookcase and can hardly believe I have read them all, and spent that much money. I am truly a Donald junkie and appreciate your contributions to Joyce Vance's very valuable postings, along with all the others who have commented on this thread. My thanks to you all !
Thank you. Judge and Leticia James know exactly who this blowhard ilow level narcissist is. Leticia, James said the first day she ever had a press conference when charges were made against him “we’re not afraid of you.” They are simply taking him to task. Judge will fine him the larger amount Leticia has asked for, and and his and his sons’ business careers in New York. Anything less will be an insult to the people of New York. They know full well he has been doing business on Russia money and the judge and Leticia are not going to appease the sleaze bags. He is finished. Trump is someone who only cares about himself. And nothing could show that more than the way he took the MAGA votes, telling them that he cared about the middle-class of America, then, the very first thing besides taking credit for all the hard work Obama did on the Patients’ Act act was to sign a tax cut that benefitted the one percent. It’s so curious to me that these people can’t see that: he has betrayed them. He has betrayed all of us, but he has betrayed his base who voted for him. I think we’re probably going to see more antics from don Don on January 16 at E. Jean Carroll’s trial. If he shows up. This one is for the jury to determine how much he owes her. He’s already been found guilty of sexual abuse and the judge said “You raped her” when he appealed. So he’s just trying to claw back the $5 million they’ve already awarded her and tried to keep the award from increasing. He is so done, and he’s going to spend the rest of his life in jail. Don’t appease him or his MAGA followers.
Har! I should’ve been a preacher. Instead of academe, researcher:))
I can’t emphasize enough that the house is burning and we have to get behind Biden, because, unless we do, we will not have a democracy: we will have a theocracy. That has been the plan of the right wing evangelicals for the past 50 years. Trump thinks he is using them, but in reality: they are using him.
I think he should have stuck to the principled rules other defendants Must Abide by...but I also think the judge is protecting his decision on appeal. Any other court can’t look at anything the judge has done and say “the toddler” didn’t get a fair shake in his court & the judgement.
Maybe if they’d hold his lawyers in contempt & fine and jail them - they’d quit representing this ass And TRY to control him!?!?
Not sure it is an unfortunate mistake. Engoron has played it well I think. He showed patience and let trump talk. The more the orange turd talks the more he’s digging his own grave. Next time will be the right time to expel him from court and lock him for a while. And nobody could fight back, because enough is really enough. Thank you.
When you are digging a deep hole, it's time to stop digging. Trump doesn't get restraint. Can't get it, is more like it. Reminds me of Trump atty John Sauer playing cute with Judge Pan in the DC Circuit appeal on Tuesday. Loser argument; dug himself a big hole. Dumb. Period.
Exactly Jack. Without permission to speak the judge will order the bailiff to put the handcuffs on and removing him from court. He will go to jail for a while.
I disagree. Although we all know how tfg works, he was allowed to establish in this controversy that he cannot follow a fair and reasonable standard in proceedings. Let him be a bully and a fraud all he wants in each case.
He was allowed a privilege that is never allowed other litigants in the same position. He must be treated exactly like other litigants if we truly support equal justice under law. No special favors simply because he’s an obnoxious bully who once held elected office.
This is how Sociopaths get away with their behavior. They have no shame or conscience, so they push and push until everyone is totally exhausted, and give in.
Read the book “The Sociopath Next Door” by Marta Stout. My mother is a sociopath, so I’ve read much about it, plus had therapy. Trump fits the profile file.
I am a retired behavioral analyst contracted to federal law enforcement for 27 years. The distinction is the presence or absence of guilt per the DSM. A sociopath knows it is wrong does it anyway. The psychopath has no sense of wrong which is readily apparent in the pig. The distinction is critical bec the absence of awareness of wrong is critical to how to predict what they will do and therefore how to prepare to stop them.
I respect your knowledge, and granted, I am not a mental health professional.
But isn’t part of Jack Smiths argument going to be that Trump KNEW he was inciting an insurrection, knew that trying to influence the electors was wrong, was told it was, but did it anyway?
That fits your description of a Sociopath. Trump knows what he is doing.
Sabrina, would you happen to know, should Trump be convicted, could he be ordered to have a psychological examination by the court? Bandy X Lee, MD, a psychiatrist has said that he is a malignant narcissist. And have other psychologist and psychiatrist from Harvard, who have written and published with Dr. Lee (see also ‘Unfit’ hey documentary filmed in 2020). They claimed that if Trump sat in front of them, he was the sort of person who would lie to their face, but they had so many films. They observed that they were able to diagnose him from the films. They also went on discuss the Goldwater rule, that came into effect during Goldwater s campaign Win he was labeled with mental health condition without being examined in person. After those false statements were made, the retirement by APA was that the patient had to be examined in person, but these psycho, largest and psychiatrist refuted that. They said they can get a much clearer picture of who Trump is by watching his many, many events that are filmed without needing to meet in person with him as he would lie. Given that he is a malignant narcissist, according to these medical professionals, and no question he is a sociopath, I do you believe a diagnosis could be made, because it would most likely be in person as he lies the minute he moves his lips. By the way, I do have the book, “sociopath, next-door.“ A group of my former neighbors at a condominium complex were passing copies around when we were confronted with a sociopath neighbor. She was diagnosed as a ‘borderline’ personality individual, but she also carried a knife in her purse, and actually targeted certain individuals, and she told horrific lies. She was convicted for harassment.
So, are you saying that Trump no sense that he is committing crimes? he certainly behaves that way. But Dr. Lee had some interesting comments about his self identification as a deity. I’m sure it’s all very complicated, but he does say on the campaign trail “I’m the chosen one..” And just the fact that he didn’t lift a finger to stop the desecration of the Capitol, while he knew death threats were made against his vice president, and Nancy Pelosi, and has never acknowledged the deaths of seven individuals and more than 140 serious injuries to police officers, indicates a lack of a moral code of knowing ‘right’ from ‘wrong.’
Regardless of whether he is psychopath or sociopath, do you agree that we should not appease him? Do you agree that are appeasing him will not make him behave any differently than his horrid criminal behavior? He has a criminal mentality. Gregg Barak, a member of Joyce’s Substack, is a criminologist who has written a book about Trump. “Criminology on Trump.” It’s on my list to read and I think it just came out as a paperback. He looks at Trump over the past five decades.
Its not a matter of "passing." A good forensic psychiatrist does not rely on the content of the persons conversation. Everyone they interview lies! Its way more complicated than that. Theres no pass and fail unless the person is or was psychotic at the time the crime was committed. Trump is not psychotic.
Hi Barbara, Do you mean it would be rigged? His niece, MaryTrump, thinks all the boxes would be checked on an evaluation for narcissist. he can’t plan or make decisions..
Psychology here. Trump is a bit slippery to diagnose and of course none of it has been in person. Seems to me he does know, many times, what the truth is and he decides to lie. Once he starts telling the lie, forcefully and repeatedly,, he seems to slip into a kind of grandiose state in which his narcissistic "I create reality" is
driving the bus. At that point its hard to tell whether he is "deciding" to tell a lie.
I thinks he slips between sociopaths and psychopaths in different states.
The malignant narcissism is present all the time.
Diagnoses are not always so clear cut and black and white. People move in and out of "ego states" in which perceptions, beliefs and behavior can shift. I think that's one reason he's so confounding and people disagree so much on these points.
I was surprised that Judge Engoron caved and let him speak, after running a pretty tight ship with the trial. An unfortunate mistake, and it is disturbing to think he did so because of the threats. NOTHING is gained by bending the rules for him.
Enough. The title says it all.
Wonderful piece today Joyce.
Enough of trump's boorish antics
Enough of his childish rants
Enough of the vitriolic rhetoric
Enough of his threats fomenting violence
Enough of republicans making excuses for him
Enough of the fealty of the far right to him
Enough of the courts accomodating him with special treatment
Enough of him commanding the nation's attention
Enough of him driving the news cycle
Enough of the media both sides arguments
Enough of the bogus investigations the republicans are engaged in to impugn Biden
Enough of his lies
Enough of the...this list is almost endless.
Just ENOUGH!!
Let's destroy this fool at the ballot box.
I agree - great article Joyce! Bob, you have very clearly stated what I sm feeling! I was just thinking earlier this week how tired I am hearing about him. The media just keeps repeating everything he says. My news feed is filled with stuff about what he said or did. ENOUGH! Just cover the facts and stop giving him the microphone. I also agree the courts need to be crystal clear on not giving him special treatment- needs to be the same as any other defendant, up to and including punishment for contempt.
Sometimes I feel like tuning out the noise, but we must remain vigilant. We can't become numb to it.
I agree. But I do think taking breaks from all the media is important to my mental health 🙃
That's actually one of retrumplican's tactics, make everyone so disgusted with politics that they say enough, walk away and DON'T EVEN VOTE.
You're so right! I am thoroughly disgusted with the media!
What is the media doing to incur your wrath? I am indebted to the media for keeping me sane. These substacks allow me to bare my soul. I read certain columnists because they do excellent research and share what they have learned. I read certain newspapers because their reporters work hard to learn facts and relay them to us readers. If the media bothers you, quit reading and watching thoughtful TV news. . . but when you do you will be uninformed, like the MAGA crowd, and will probably embarrass yourself. The media is our friend. You can draw your own conclusions, but to put "the media" silent would destroy our democracy.
Should Donald be re-elected prepare to have less "freedom of the press" and eventually you will be afraid to speak out. He is suddenly declaring that he ". . . won't have time for retribution . . ." but like most things he says, that is a lie. It is one of the chief reasons he wants re-election. Every authoritarian is afraid of the media because that's what lets us voters know what is the truth and what isn't.
Joyce's contribution to us is helping us to understand the law. As she says, Donald refused to listen to the judge or to follow his instructions. That's the way he will govern.
JOYCE -- thank your for being willing to share your knowledge with us and with the media. You are a treasure.
I love Substack media but check out the front page (digital) of the New York Times today where Trump is photographed (note timing before caucuses) beaming in a photo LARGE PRINT with story about some rubbish that college grads support him (having a meltdown so check details please) while in smaller print below a story on Biden something like his staff having a hard time keeping up with campaigning and world events. BIDEN BASHING in other words. I am so angry may have a stroke now but then I could not vote for Biden; check it out and decide if you really support the Grey Lady or whether a letter to the editor is indicated. What are non Stackers supposed to read for information? I have heard that the Times was biased against Biden but it is subtle so must look. Likely more apparent in opinions. I’m taking a break and will read again when my fury subsides; then write to the editor and post another note somewhere here for support. Opinion, Stackers?
I don't she's referring to this article or substack, in general. And certainly not to Joyce.
His outrageous behavior makes the news reporters jobs so easy. He's full of daily sound bites.
Amen! Do not want to see his face, do not want to hear his voice.
I have been posting on various sites I follow how absolutely sick and tied I am of his face, his name, just him being posted, talked about. If we would all stop talking about him he might go away.
Let’s do!!
yes enough is enough....I guess he is not a music fan either...
I think Judge Engoron let him put his foot in his mouth.
The substance (ha) of what he said isn’t the point. Parties who are represented by counsel in civil cases are not permitted to make arguments to the court (testimony yes, arguments no). You either have counsel or you represent yourself, but you can’t have it both ways. That’s called “hybrid representation” and it is not allowed. There just is no good reason to change a longstanding rule for him.
I think this is perhaps the most surprising part of the court cases, how the judges seem to keep bending over backwards to accommodate Trump. This just gives him more power to spread his lies and distortions. He should be treated like any other citizen of the United States!!
The entire Justice system including the FBI has bent over backwards to accommodate his antics beginning with Comey announcing Hillary's renewed email investigation but no mention of Trump's investigation for collusion with Russians followed by Mueller's temerity to prosecut and Barr's complete neutering of Mueller's report, on & on. Trump has always received special treatment like a spoiled brat . Their are a multitude of reasons why he should be locked up or exiled to Gitmo.
Right! Trump absolutely deserves no special treatment. Any special treatment encourages other criminals to demand the right to do the same.
Maybe they are remembering the bomb threats?
No it’s not the point. But it was a bridge too far.
There are two points here: the legal point about special treatment and the message this rant sends about the qualification of Trump for any important position in terms of his temperament, situational awareness, and impulse control.
Believe me, i understand Trumps need to “go off” like this. Anyone who has dealt with toddlers does; we can all translate this into toddler-ese; in essence it’s what another commenter said: “Waaah!” from the perspective “the world does revolve around me” ( my son had a T-shirt with that on it once).
Was it smart to rant on against and to the face of the judge--the single person who will decide the outcome of this trial? Sometime between the ages of three and 77 most of us would come to recognize this as a poor tactic. Do we want to have a president who will rant on and on about his grievances rather than developing and executing some strategy that improves our position?
If a trumper crossed my path, i might ask him what they thought of this rant-- not whether they thought it was all true (engeron biased; james prosecuting for political reasons) -- but whether saying so at that point was likely to improve Trump’s position.
Frankly i thought this was insane.
I had forgotten until this minute, but a couple of decades ago i was allowed to speak in court before the sentencing at a criminal bench trial (i was not the defendant). Guess what? I started by saying “Thank you, your honor, for allowing me to speak....”
Self-entitled rant or respect?
Bandy Lee and many other mental health professionals have written and spoken to inform the general public of the overt signs of Trump's mental illness. He is not behaving like a child.
Neuropsychologist here: In addition to the personality disorders, T is showing significant indications of cognitive decline which will tend to exacerbate the existing conditions, especially by increasing impulsivity.
Sociopathic narcissism. Presents in childhood, and there is no treatment. It's hardwired.
Yeah, I know this is a malignancy not childishness.
Bandy Lee has discussed that the reason he is behaving as he is because of his deficiencies since childhood. His lack of gaining a moral code, for example impacts how he behaves today. He simply has been in her words “deficient since childhood.“ you are correct, he is not behaving as a normal child, who has received early childhood education, whether at home or in a formal ECE setting. He is behaving as an angry, trapped, out of control child having a temper tantrum. But he’s an adult with no control. He can be manipulated, but he can’t be controlled. Look for the bailiff common slap, some handcuffs on him if he behaved like this in Chutkans court.
Joyce plainly acknowledged that no good can happen by giving him the favor of speaking in court. He can only do this after he has been found guilty, and before he is sentenced.
It is the norm during criminal sentencing for the court to hear statements from victims as well as the defendant. The NY civil case operates under different rules.
I understand these two instances were @ two different points in two different kinds of trials.
I was not a victim; i was the defendant’s mother
Thank you again Liz for being so patient and explaining law to all of us.
Not fair to toddlers. Seriously.
Trump did not have any early childhood socialization whether in home or in an accredited early childhood formal education setting. He’s deficient. He makes the case for a strong accredited early childhood education for all children because he’s become a malignant narcissist. And you are absolutely correct: little kids learn how to be members between the ages of two and five or six or seven, and they don’t need a formal education setting: they need parenting. This is something Trump lacked.
Barbara, your example of between the age of three and 77 is incorrect. People who have had early childhood education either formally or in the home stop being tyrants and start being community members whether it’s only in our family between the ages of two and five. Some later, and still have a few temper at age 7. Trump is deficient and always was. This is why he looks to someone like Putin as his “daddy.“. He is unfit for the office of president because he doesn’t have a high mental ceiling that would allow for strategic planning, and he has zero to low impulse control. But I wanted to point to the age of becoming socialized as that of early childhood, and one doesn’t have to have a formal early childhood education, although that would be great if we could supply that for every single American: parents can very well teach these kinds of moral growth events in the home. There’s plenty of theory to draw on such as Piaget, Montessori, Csikszentmilhalyi sp
I didn’t mean that literally: i said 77 because that’s how old Trump is; just wanted to emphasize how pathological he is.
I am naive. Two things that occurred to me are (1) the judge may be trying to avoid any appeal that could slow down a decision no matter how stupid the appeal and (2) he knows what the facts are and can’t be influenced by Trumpbabble. The unpredictability (or predictability) of the Trump lower courts and the Supreme Court of Trump (SCOT) may warrant treating this unique case somewhat uniquely.
Any possibility.?
In my experience (almost 30 years as a staff attorney in federal trial and appeals courts), refusing to allow a represented party to make a closing argument would never be grounds for appeal. It just sets a terrible example to give him privileges that are afforded to no other litigant.
Thank you. I just wonder if the judge, knowing that the supreme court isn’t what it used to be, is trying to avoid anything that will slow this case down. Or is there no appeal from this type of case?
He can (and will) appeal, but since it is a state-court case the circumstances under which he could end up in the SCOTUS are extremely narrow and likely unavailable.
I wonder if they can appeal the civil finding of fraud or just the amount of the fine?
I am surprised he managed to keep his mouth shut during the appeal on the immunity issue. He didn’t stay for the prosecution argument; I wonder if he could have stayed quiet for that.
He didn’t have Engeron’s permission to speak, so count this his first “outburst”. Given the five more trials he faces and their appeals), i’d put the over/under for outbursts @ all six trials @ 2.5, with “outburst” defined to include non-responsive statements on the witness stand that the jury is instructed to disregard(see note); Outburst @ a SCOTUS hearing counts double. (Imagine him sitting there making faces @ his justices, maybe pushing his lawyer away from the podium?)
With an known unreliable defendant what steps can be taken to avoid a mistrial?
(Note) In this case he’d likely be charged with murder -- what with the trampled (trumpled?) dead body of his lawyer lying right there and all.
He can appeal both liability and penalty.
You are incorrect: Engoran gave him permission to speak. how this is handled in court without having permission to speak is the judge calls, the bailiff, and the bailiff walks over and removes him from the courtroom. That’s the standard. So you’re not going to see this outburst
In Jack Smith’s courtroom with that judge — or Trump will be removed. Joyce was referring to the fact that the judge gave Trump permission to speak. He originally attempted to put strong parameters around how, and if he could speak in the email chain with Trump’s attorneys. He couldn’t get written agreement so he denied him speaking, but in court, he changed his mind and allowed Trump to speak: with the agreement that he wouldn’t “go off.” Trump had no intention of keeping any agreement. He went off. The judge asked the attorneys to “control your client.” We know how that goes. What Joyce is saying is no other judge should give this kind of extra lenient permission. And I doubt that judge Chutkan will.
And if he goes off on a rant or a tangent, she will order the bailiff to put on the handcuffs.
I saw a post earlier from Glenn Kirchner stating that he believes that Engoron allowed the statement from Trump to aid in an appeal attempt.
Mary, to aid Trump or the course of justice?
Justice - my apologies for not making that clear!
Liz Brown, in both of your posts, you are preaching it Girl!
Joyce inspires me!
Make that *all* of your posts Liz!
You are very kind, thank you
Liz and Pamela, being neither lawyer nor psychiatrst, i so appreciate this discussion, with your contributions from law and psychology/psychiatry whatever. Regards, Barbara B
I'm also neither, Barbara, but I've learned (a lot!) on the job of parenting two children (twins) with mental health challenges. The chaotic behavior of the bipolar one overshadowed the depression of the other. The bipolar is now under control with good meds and compliance. In the meantime, the depression progressed right under our noses, and we missed the drug use that went with it. Accidental heroin overdose took that one. I never ever anticipated the gut-wrenching 24-hrs a day work that was required of us as parents, for at least a decade. And still we lost one. We have two other kids without challenges so we have three stable grown kids and a baby grandson. For that we're grateful!
Oh, Pamela, my heart grieves with you.
We too missed the drug use for a while, and as it escalated. Almost lost him a few times (suicide, ODs). Finally he was hospitalized several times for surgery for terrible infections/abscesses likely caused by xylazine (sp?) mixed with heroine. A hospital social worker talked him into rehab and got him admitted right out of hospital which set him on the road to recovery. I shake or cry when i think of it.
Special prayers for the surviving twin.
I am so sorry for your loss Pamela.
Joyce is right, we really are in this together. Thank you for sharing your experience here.
Unless you bring him into the courtroom gagged and shackled in a soundproof glass cage (like the Putinists do), Mango id going to do his show. Now more than ever.
Could not resist: MAGA stands for Mango And Gang of A-holes
He puts his foot in his mouth every other day. And his voters love him for it. It is impossible to understand.
Against sheer stupidity there is not much you can legally do, unfortunately.
He is their cult leader. When this is all over, and he is locked up for the rest of his life (see George Conway’s recent interview, I believe it was January 6 on the Lincoln project for which he was a cofounder) his cultists will return to their prior stage. This is what happens in prisons with malignant, narcissist, cult leaders, and in businesses as well, where malignant narcissist leaders also reside.
Trump is a media genius.
Maybe, but he could also be like a groomer, knowing eactly what to say and how to behave to get people on his side.
Unfortunately he is.
Perhaps
I'd like to believe that every time Trump opens his mouth (which is often) he's moving at least one voter to the D column.
One would hope so!
And earning $20/MAGAt
I'd like to hope so
100 voters (thinking big here in snowy Michigan)!!!
Woot!!!
Not likely.
“His people.” His people are not enough to elect a president.
They will be, if enough Dems and other people who give a damn don’t get out there and vote!
And not go for a 3rd party.
David didn't say rabid R voters; he said "one voter". Independents, disaffected R's (believe me, there are more than you think), and Women will win this election for the D's/Biden.
Thank you for picking up on this Sheila.
Washington post has an article about a group called American Bridge 21st century that is doing a large ad campaign in some swing states to attract people who support Trump but may be persuadable. They will be airing testimonials by ordinary people explaining why they won’t vote for trump again. I like their approach and targeting.
I think Lincoln Project puts their ads out in Trump friendly areas/outlets.
Sorry i misstated: i think the testimonials are from voters who didn’t vote for Trump and again won’t
Now, this is the point. We do not serve our cause by going on about how many anything. Spend our time and energy on putting these horrible spectacles in the public and let thinking people make their decisions. At some point we have to get out the vote and have confidence in the citizens to see, hear and do the right thing.
Targetting especially women.
Me too! The "bomb threat" worked! YUP! Just reinforces Trumps tactics even more so!
Nope: the judge gave him a chance to speak with parameters clearly understood so the issue of him having voice would not be in an appeal. So., he was given voice. Judge Engoran is not afraid of him. He is the decision-maker on the amount to be Trump will be fined. Trump has done himself no favors at all.
Actually the judge did not give Trump explicit permission to speak, if i understand correctly. He asked Trump in court if he would adhere to guidelines. Trump did not answer but took off on his defamatory victim screed. Now the judge did allow it to go on for 5-6 minutes with maybe one admonition to Kise to “control your client”
I dont suppose any part of that violated the existing gag order (as reported it was mostly about Engoron and James) and it was in court. If it did i hope Engoron imposes a fine-- in the range $100k - $1M.
Kise ought to be sanctioned for saying ( in the email exchange, not in court)
( as reported by Courthouse News Service):
“This is very unfair, your honor,” Kise said in a Wednesday email. “You are not allowing President Trump, who has been wrongfully demeaned and belittled by an out of control, politically motivated attorney general, to speak about the things that must be spoken about.”
I don’t know that kise/habba took any shots @ the judge in his closing but believe it’s reported and he did mention James pursuing a political agenda.
PS: When Leticia James brought the case, she was well aware that two Deutsche Bank bankers, who had put together the original loans on the commercial side of the bank, had committed suicide and a third person who was the stepson of one of the bankers, who killed himself, died as a young person with an unexplained death. The mother of the young person, and wife of the banker, who killed himself suddenly became afraid to talk about either of the deaths. Leticia James was well aware that the Trump family had received hundreds of millions of dollars from Russia. Despite the shadiness, Trump testified that Deutsche Bank was happy with the loans. Ivanka testified that Deutsche bank was happy with the loans. (After the commercial side came under scrutiny, Jared Kushner introduced Trump to his private at Deutsche Bank and don Don and Ivanka trotted in to a meeting with the private banker and obtained new replacement loans. So that new loan along with Russia money kept Trump out of foreclosure. In court, Trump testified, and Ivanka testified that the bank was happy, and the loans were paid off. They were paid off with illicit money. Of course, the now retired private banker, who made millions of dollars from her commission from the loans was happy. The commercial bankers, who had initially set up the loan that got transferred to the private banker were not so happy because they hung themselves. But Trump and Ivanka are happy, because they and Deutsche Bank are happy despite bankers killing themselves, and a third young person (he had become a whistleblower after his stepfather died by suicide ) dying with no explanation. Even having this backstory, Leticia, James, stuck straight to the evidence in the spreadsheets and the testimony from accountants and Trump executives from Trump through under the bus, of course. Of course, Trump’s attorneys will never acknowledge any degree of accountability for fraud. Their response in this fraud case is the same as it is in the cases brought by Jack Smith for the DOJ: it’s a politically motivated witchhunt. Nothing can be further from the truth, and they have to say something as they lose. lose lose. When Trump is spending the rest of his life in jail they will still maintain. It has been a witch hunt.
The attorneys are losers, but one of them save $3 million in advance (not Habba). New York is like a waterbed: anytime anyone rolls over everybody in that town knows it and they all know exactly who Trump is and they know the dirt. But kudos to Leticia James for taking the highroad. Kudos to the judge for taking the highroad and allowing Trump to talk. He just secured their would not be an appeal on that basis.
ps #2 read “Dark Towers’
By New York Times, finance, editor, David Enrich. This book was on the New York Times list as the best seller, listed by the Wall Street Journal as the best seller and details the backstory of Trump’s dirty fraudulent business dealings. So it’s all published and easy to find. I’m guessing Leticia James and Judge Engoren have read it. They know all about Trump‘s threats and dirty deals and Russia money.
Thanks for the "Dark Towers" information. I'll add it to my Donald book collection, which is huge. I look at that bookcase and can hardly believe I have read them all, and spent that much money. I am truly a Donald junkie and appreciate your contributions to Joyce Vance's very valuable postings, along with all the others who have commented on this thread. My thanks to you all !
The judge gave him permission to speak. If he had stood up and started yammering without that permission, the bailiff would’ve hauled him off.
Agree. The judge was padding against an appeal.
Thank you. Judge and Leticia James know exactly who this blowhard ilow level narcissist is. Leticia, James said the first day she ever had a press conference when charges were made against him “we’re not afraid of you.” They are simply taking him to task. Judge will fine him the larger amount Leticia has asked for, and and his and his sons’ business careers in New York. Anything less will be an insult to the people of New York. They know full well he has been doing business on Russia money and the judge and Leticia are not going to appease the sleaze bags. He is finished. Trump is someone who only cares about himself. And nothing could show that more than the way he took the MAGA votes, telling them that he cared about the middle-class of America, then, the very first thing besides taking credit for all the hard work Obama did on the Patients’ Act act was to sign a tax cut that benefitted the one percent. It’s so curious to me that these people can’t see that: he has betrayed them. He has betrayed all of us, but he has betrayed his base who voted for him. I think we’re probably going to see more antics from don Don on January 16 at E. Jean Carroll’s trial. If he shows up. This one is for the jury to determine how much he owes her. He’s already been found guilty of sexual abuse and the judge said “You raped her” when he appealed. So he’s just trying to claw back the $5 million they’ve already awarded her and tried to keep the award from increasing. He is so done, and he’s going to spend the rest of his life in jail. Don’t appease him or his MAGA followers.
My opinion.
Amen!
Har! I should’ve been a preacher. Instead of academe, researcher:))
I can’t emphasize enough that the house is burning and we have to get behind Biden, because, unless we do, we will not have a democracy: we will have a theocracy. That has been the plan of the right wing evangelicals for the past 50 years. Trump thinks he is using them, but in reality: they are using him.
I think he should have stuck to the principled rules other defendants Must Abide by...but I also think the judge is protecting his decision on appeal. Any other court can’t look at anything the judge has done and say “the toddler” didn’t get a fair shake in his court & the judgement.
Maybe if they’d hold his lawyers in contempt & fine and jail them - they’d quit representing this ass And TRY to control him!?!?
Not sure it is an unfortunate mistake. Engoron has played it well I think. He showed patience and let trump talk. The more the orange turd talks the more he’s digging his own grave. Next time will be the right time to expel him from court and lock him for a while. And nobody could fight back, because enough is really enough. Thank you.
When you are digging a deep hole, it's time to stop digging. Trump doesn't get restraint. Can't get it, is more like it. Reminds me of Trump atty John Sauer playing cute with Judge Pan in the DC Circuit appeal on Tuesday. Loser argument; dug himself a big hole. Dumb. Period.
Exactly Jack. Without permission to speak the judge will order the bailiff to put the handcuffs on and removing him from court. He will go to jail for a while.
I disagree. Although we all know how tfg works, he was allowed to establish in this controversy that he cannot follow a fair and reasonable standard in proceedings. Let him be a bully and a fraud all he wants in each case.
He was allowed a privilege that is never allowed other litigants in the same position. He must be treated exactly like other litigants if we truly support equal justice under law. No special favors simply because he’s an obnoxious bully who once held elected office.
Again, thank you Liz.
Thank you Joyce!
This is how Sociopaths get away with their behavior. They have no shame or conscience, so they push and push until everyone is totally exhausted, and give in.
It seems like the bomb threat worked.
A psychopath not sociopath. Very imp distinction.
Read the book “The Sociopath Next Door” by Marta Stout. My mother is a sociopath, so I’ve read much about it, plus had therapy. Trump fits the profile file.
Malignant narcissistic sociopath.
I am a retired behavioral analyst contracted to federal law enforcement for 27 years. The distinction is the presence or absence of guilt per the DSM. A sociopath knows it is wrong does it anyway. The psychopath has no sense of wrong which is readily apparent in the pig. The distinction is critical bec the absence of awareness of wrong is critical to how to predict what they will do and therefore how to prepare to stop them.
I respect your knowledge, and granted, I am not a mental health professional.
But isn’t part of Jack Smiths argument going to be that Trump KNEW he was inciting an insurrection, knew that trying to influence the electors was wrong, was told it was, but did it anyway?
That fits your description of a Sociopath. Trump knows what he is doing.
The distinction of psychopath or sociopath, in either case what's to be looked at is the danger to themselves and others.
Sabrina, would you happen to know, should Trump be convicted, could he be ordered to have a psychological examination by the court? Bandy X Lee, MD, a psychiatrist has said that he is a malignant narcissist. And have other psychologist and psychiatrist from Harvard, who have written and published with Dr. Lee (see also ‘Unfit’ hey documentary filmed in 2020). They claimed that if Trump sat in front of them, he was the sort of person who would lie to their face, but they had so many films. They observed that they were able to diagnose him from the films. They also went on discuss the Goldwater rule, that came into effect during Goldwater s campaign Win he was labeled with mental health condition without being examined in person. After those false statements were made, the retirement by APA was that the patient had to be examined in person, but these psycho, largest and psychiatrist refuted that. They said they can get a much clearer picture of who Trump is by watching his many, many events that are filmed without needing to meet in person with him as he would lie. Given that he is a malignant narcissist, according to these medical professionals, and no question he is a sociopath, I do you believe a diagnosis could be made, because it would most likely be in person as he lies the minute he moves his lips. By the way, I do have the book, “sociopath, next-door.“ A group of my former neighbors at a condominium complex were passing copies around when we were confronted with a sociopath neighbor. She was diagnosed as a ‘borderline’ personality individual, but she also carried a knife in her purse, and actually targeted certain individuals, and she told horrific lies. She was convicted for harassment.
So, are you saying that Trump no sense that he is committing crimes? he certainly behaves that way. But Dr. Lee had some interesting comments about his self identification as a deity. I’m sure it’s all very complicated, but he does say on the campaign trail “I’m the chosen one..” And just the fact that he didn’t lift a finger to stop the desecration of the Capitol, while he knew death threats were made against his vice president, and Nancy Pelosi, and has never acknowledged the deaths of seven individuals and more than 140 serious injuries to police officers, indicates a lack of a moral code of knowing ‘right’ from ‘wrong.’
Regardless of whether he is psychopath or sociopath, do you agree that we should not appease him? Do you agree that are appeasing him will not make him behave any differently than his horrid criminal behavior? He has a criminal mentality. Gregg Barak, a member of Joyce’s Substack, is a criminologist who has written a book about Trump. “Criminology on Trump.” It’s on my list to read and I think it just came out as a paperback. He looks at Trump over the past five decades.
He’ll pass..watch..
Its not a matter of "passing." A good forensic psychiatrist does not rely on the content of the persons conversation. Everyone they interview lies! Its way more complicated than that. Theres no pass and fail unless the person is or was psychotic at the time the crime was committed. Trump is not psychotic.
Hi Barbara, Do you mean it would be rigged? His niece, MaryTrump, thinks all the boxes would be checked on an evaluation for narcissist. he can’t plan or make decisions..
Psychology here. Trump is a bit slippery to diagnose and of course none of it has been in person. Seems to me he does know, many times, what the truth is and he decides to lie. Once he starts telling the lie, forcefully and repeatedly,, he seems to slip into a kind of grandiose state in which his narcissistic "I create reality" is
driving the bus. At that point its hard to tell whether he is "deciding" to tell a lie.
I thinks he slips between sociopaths and psychopaths in different states.
The malignant narcissism is present all the time.
Diagnoses are not always so clear cut and black and white. People move in and out of "ego states" in which perceptions, beliefs and behavior can shift. I think that's one reason he's so confounding and people disagree so much on these points.