Wow! Joyce. So much detail and I understand criminal law to an extent. Will be rereading this column. What’s amazing is that a former president is in court for these crimes and also leading some polls re: the next election. Everyone in America should be required to read your words!
Amen Kathi! Especially the Maga, who believe Trump when he says, his first amendment rights are being suppressed. Jack Smith said, right in his indictment, that none of the indictment took away Trump’s right to his first amendment speech.
Trump has the biggest megaphone in this country. Unfortunately bigger than Biden because the media is driven by $$. Washington Post, my local newspaper, lost $100 mil since Trump left the WH
Trump spoke after court: I think I saw his attorney (guy in glasses standing behind him) roll his eyes. I do not have television - watched it on CNN youtube short just posted.
I do like to at least read the headlines which you can do without paying. Lots of people read what they print and I think it's good to know what they introduce into the public sphere.
You can still read SOME of the articles in the WSJ app after you cancel. Also you can search the title of a particular article and sometimes find it at another website. They do have some excellent investigative journalists. I too do not want to give $ to the Murdochs.
I’m disgusted with WSJ and their Trump bias. But I’m going to subscribe for this year. I too the WSJ for 30 years but their blatant support of Trump became too much.
I kept my sub to the WSJ. I cannot stand their editorial policy but the news part of the paper is super-excellent. I just ignore the editorial and op-ed pages (unless it's Peggy Noonan who can be just excellent). And no paper comes close to the superb job the WSJ does with graphs and other similar display of easy-to-understand numbers. I recommend it, just stay away from their opinion pages.
Ok Dick, back i go. I had it for 3 years. One of their Trump favoring articles last year was too much for me. Now I am upset w the Economist. They were always decent - but catering to thin skinned Americans now. Pretty soon I will be down too Wired and Joyce’s Substack;)
Kathi, Considering the media constitute a commercial, profit-driven enterprise, fair or not, it falls on Biden, perhaps aided by more charismatic surrogates, to present content, we all know to be important to the public interest, in a way that sets the expectation of attracting a sizable enough audience to meet profit thresholds.
It is the responsibility of news organizations to report important news that we need to know to make us well-informed citizens. If the way news organizations are funded inhibits that, then we need new funding models.
Ruthie, While I don’t disagree, probably the most consequential election of our lives is less than a year away, leaving no time for the warranted reform you rightly would propose. Accordingly, Biden and fellow Democratic leadership must take far greater advantage of the bully pulpit with messaging so decisive and disciplined so not to allow MAGA deceptions and distortions to go unanswered.
Dems need a talented and charismatic messenger out there yesterday!! We are getting clobbered by the maga media machine. Fight fire with fire. Speeches about Bidenomics aren't going to do it.
Only if such "funding models" are not government controlled. Free enterprise will always have its downside, but the original idea of competition creating high quality products is intrinsic to our economic system. What went wrong is the fact that people seem to prefer not to care - especially young people who grew up taking democracy and freedom for granted. So news has been replaced in large part by infotainment and sensationalism.
Well, the Wash Post just lost my subscription for treating right-wing drivel filled with lies, omissions and red-herrings by the likes of Theissen and George Will as valid “opinions.” Then, they censored my responses. I don’t need to be paying for that BS.
Jennifer Rubin is a Post columnist but repeatedly calls out the Media for bias. Her columns are excellent. She is a former Republican and writes about Biden accomplishments. She is excellent. I subscribe to her Post newsletter
On Jen Rubin’s Green Room podcast a couple weeks ago she said very clearly that we should all ignore the polls. I love how she consistently calls out the Media.
Kathi, Regrettably, with the emergence of ancient tribalisms that have been revitalized under the aegis of perceived, longstanding grievances, I expect a substantial swath of the population would shield themselves from Joyce’s words. Please be assured that I’m not advocating they not be circulated, only that a sizable number of the folks for whom we would want them to matter would likely exhibit strong resistance. I note this observation, because, while we can’t allow ourselves to become paralyzed, we are right to fear the apparent hostile takeover of one of our two major parties.
Some (many?) polls have been wrong, but many have been right. And some fall somewhere in-between. I watch 'em but take them with a grain of salt. It's good to know what others are seeing (and believing).
I'm going to have to re-read this post. It is extremely detailed and I'm not versed in 'legalese'. Even so, I did gain from it that SC Smith and his team have to be laser focused to deal with all this, and that they must have patience and restraint the likes of which I do not. I'm grateful for them, as well as you, Joyce. Your explanations, even though it takes more than one reading, are a great replacement to network news. Thank you.
This is a tough, but important one, and I worked on it for about a week (and cut about twice as much out as ended up in, in hopes it would be accessible). Like you say, I think this is one where we have to be willing to study the issues, and it may take more than one pass to fully understand them. Thanks for being willing to do the heavy lifting here!
"In fact, his best ambition may be to delay the trial, perhaps until after the election, with a messy appeal process."
This indeed is the ultimate quest, tRump's "dispositive" goal...not for his appeals to succeed on their putative "merits", but for protraction of the case(s) well beyond the 2024 elections, where - if we believe the game plan outlined in "Project 2025" - if elected he'll simply make all of this just go away. It has been obvious since (a) the indictments, and (b) his announced candidacy, that the strategy was: delay-delay- delay, and delay again, taking advantage of the entirety of the procedural options offered to criminal defendants in the state and federal judicial system for appellate relief, all the way to SCOTUS if needs must, and the months if not years these appeals can consume before final decisions are rendered. And, truth be told, the defendant is indeed succeeding to date...all that is required now is for him to be elected ca. 12 months from now, however horrifying such a prospect can be to the non-NAGA majority.
Tell me again, he is not being treated differently. I am a great admirer of yours Joyce but there is so much of what I think of as BS he is getting away with. Did the Rosenburg's get this kind of treatment before they were hung; to this day many believing his wife was innocent? I am sick and tire of our government giving this SOB the long stretch of the law. The only reason is, he is running again; the only other possible reason is again our AG's interference not wanting to look political, while looking political. No, I am not a lawyer and I know it shows, but this whole thing re Trump is beyond disgusting and as far as I am concerned a betrayal of the U. S. Constitution and the American people. Sick of the whole damn thing. And as this continues the Republicans will only get worse seeing him get away with so much.
Hi Marilyn, When Jack Smith issued his first indictments, he gave a news conference in which he asked every American to read the indictments. When he finished his news conference, he stated that he wanted us to remember that “everyone is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.”
There were four areas in the indictments. I read every word, and I can see that he is proceeding to convict Trump in a court of law. That includes a jury trial in this case, not a bench trial as in New York. It is so important for everyone to read the indictments to see how clearly and carefully Jack Smith has stated Trump's first amendment rights are not being questioned. The outcome/translation of that is Trump is free to go on the campaign trail and continue to lie to the MAGA. One doesn’t need to listen to his entire speech, but a glimpse here and there of perhaps 10 seconds of a short YouTube can show you that he continues to say his first amendment rights are being trampled. Nothing is further from the truth. And Jack Smith spelled this out in the indictments. If you want to share the indictments with friends and family, Joyce has linked them here on her substack. And an MSNBC newscaster has read every single one as an audio and as well another person has posted a YouTube of himself reading the indictments So we can just watch and listen (whether you have read them. It’s a nice refresher). Then you can see how much Jack Smith and his team have been dotting the i's, and crossing the t's to convict Trump in a court of law. So much of the process is frustrating because Trump is allowed by law to file motions for dismissal during a certain amount of time, and we knew that was coming. It’s new territory to bring criminal charges against a former president, so there is a lot of i dotting and t crossing to get it right. I hear your frustration. We have the best of the best in Jack Smith. I know he’s not like General Patton, charging through enemy lines, ignoring telegrams instructing him not to do so. Our instinct is to get rid of this egregious example who was elected in 2016. He’s going to jail and I hope that can give you some comfort today. He won’t be going to a regular jail, it’ll be something like Langley with high security. What they (Jack and Company) want to do by the way, is make such a solid case that an appeal will fail. 💙 I hope if you haven’t already seen Jack Smith on the day,he filed the indictments that you’ll pull up that YouTube and watch it. None of us want to sit down and read 70 pages of legalese, but since he made such a point of asking us to do it, I did so.
Kumbayah! 💙 I actually know and have known folks in the business world (not academe so much, my first career that tamed me down), but who were Patton incarnated doing business and legal. And brilliant. It was fun to watch them operate even when they were doing legal. (But especially when they were doing business - and doing it ethically. There is a huge difference between ethical business and the kind Trump does:) But we can't do Patton here. This jackass is the former president of the United States. He is like a million headed snake. And so are his attorneys. Nothing can be taken for granted. So our best gift to Joyce who does so much for us is to be her good students and read every word so we can become educated. She is giving us the answers to the test. We just need to read them. And send positive energy to Jack Smith.
When you finish, read the Georgia indictment. It is a soap. Quoting Walt texting Melania about whether POTUS has decided to take 'the boxes in the living quarters' to NJ ("Morning Ma'am"). Her response: "No. They are not going. The plane is full of my luggage." Sooooo....missing documentation found: we now know how she keeps herself in all of those spankin white levis. She has them on the plane in hundreds of pieces of luggage!! Read on....
I don't legalsplain. Just experience. I've had top drawer attorneys - and some off the rails who should be disbarred (in my view). Top drawer attorneys dot i's and cross t's and do law. They don't make it up on the fly. And they tame down their clients. Trump has had a whole crew of attorneys and some have likely fired him (that's what attorneys do when clients will not follow their advice). That woman in NY today is going to lose Trump's case for him. He already has been found for fraud: Judge Engoron is going to throw the book at Trump with the highest amount of dollars awarded in the fine - and rip away his businesses license for the maximum number of years - because of her. Judge already knows what an idiot Trump is: but attorneys need to respect the judge no matter what. Judge Engoron is going to smack Trump because of her. If he smacks her right away, she can scream to the press: "Well, I told you Judge Engoron was biased against us!" I wonder if he can increase the amount NY AG is asking? If he can, look for that to happen.
Gloria, I am not an attorney, thus I cannot explain anything legally. But I have had some top-drawer attorneys in our business. I know from one of them that he would had fired clients who would not take his advice. And I watched all of them in court. Their behavior was much different from going to lunch with the judge and such. You must say "Yes Your Honor" and not yap back. One can be made as a hornet, but you have to stuff it until lunch time. In any other case, Judge Engoron would slap that woman hard with something. She seems to be begging for him to do that, so she can go all drama to the news crews outside. It's all about the Trump victims at this point. But what about the banks that were bamboozled? Or private investors, should they have funds tied up in the properties? Judge Engoron has asked Lady Attorney (Habbas?) and the other attorney to control Trump. Trump wants to take over the courtroom and pretend his is the victim. Judge Engoron is going overboard to not allow Trump to say that his First Amendment rights are dismissed. It's my hunch that Lady Attorney has lost the case for Trump - so far as how much they will be fined. She is terrible.
I read the indictment as well, and found it to be very well written and not terribly difficult to digest. This is such an important moment in our nation's history that the effort is very much worthwhile. I may even read it again before gathering with family and friends on Thanksgiving. They'll probably make me sit outside by myself.
Imagine if we'd have had Joyce on Substack back during the Watergate days. These writings are invaluable.
Maybe we should all just go to Joyce’s for Thanksgiving. I’m sort of in the same boat and I dare not mention much about politics in my crew. Half are Blue. But there are some who would be ‘ruffled.’ it’s odd that the Blues never are -and just about crawl across the table to make peace, but the Reds have a chip. Yes, do read just in case you have a chance to talk to someone with an open mind. And let them know about Joyce’s substack:))💙
It has always baffled me as to why some people are offended by discussions of politics. What could be more important? Aristotle referred to political science as the "architectonic science." So much of the fabric of our daily lives is a reflection of the structure of our law and politics.
Agree 100%. I think they have an impulse that makes them want to convert anyone who is not of their party or mindset. And that has intensified in the last few years. Anyway, that’s my take on it.
PS, And do read the Miami document indictment. It reads just like a soap opera with Melania telling Walt Nuata: “the boxes can’t go to New Jersey because the plane is full of my luggage”… And they copied the text messages on that diatribe exactly word for word, including Walt’s smiley face when he texted back that he would “talk to POTUS.” So that one’s worth reading, because some of us don’t have time to watch the soaps. And for me, at least answer to why she always clean white Levi’s to wear: how many pairs did she pack in that luggage? (more than 100).
But the indictment I’m waiting for is the pillow guy. That one’s going to have some text messages. He looks like he spends his time in back alleys and I’m just saying this is my personal opinion allegedly. And I’d like to see text messages from MTG. I just stopped myself and backed up the bus and erased what she looks like. No snide, no sniping. But the Pillow Guy??? I’m sure Jack Smith knows if he was in the inner circle.
Marilyn, I so agree with you. He is being treated very differently than any other person in our country . I know he was President but that makes it even worse! All these delays being granted to him are ridiculous . This is not equal justice under the law.
Absolutely no question he is getting favored treatment. Chutkan and Engoron are blatantly tip toeing. If it were any of us who'd acted in any of these ways we'd be inarcerated! Slandering a Judge's clerk would last exactly 5mins at which point the defendant would have been remanded to custody in any of the courts I was in over a 22yr period.
And just look at the favored treatment Judge Cannon has given him! For the life of me, why hasn’t that case been taken out of her overtly biased and incompetent hands?
Farcical the idiot who believes he would be king takes not the time to recall even one genuine kindness he has bestowed on others and thus seals his fate to the unknown and forgotten.
I think his woman attorney in NY is going to have her own day. But not the one she has imagined either. Judge Engoron is careful about handling Trump. But he is not liking attorney lady's disrespecting him. That's not how is done. She should be saying 'yes your honor' but she is blasting him to his face. Wow! I predict he will award the State the highest possible amount and file something against attorney lady later. I don't know if that is allowed. But there is a reason attorney's know how to say: "Yes Your Honor" even if they lose and disagree." This lady attorney is blowing it. No television - watched the online feed on messages earlier today.
Habba has obviously not looked into what happens to people post trump. I think Habba should be practicing “would you like fries with your burger” for her post trump era...oh wait burger places have higher hiring standards.
God, just let the Fatal Hamberder make all this moot - a nice, public, fatal massive myocardial farction, preferably mid-rant at the next Nuremberg Rally, in front of the drooling MAGAts, flopping around on the stage like a beached whale.
As a physician, I don't wish death on anyone. Just a dominant hemisphere stroke. He can live, but not speak, not move his dominant arm or leg. Or, a brainstem stroke with a 'locked in' syndrome. Can you imagine being locked inside that head for his duration?
It doesn't really help to wish ill on those we oppose, especially as doctors. Trump could have a stroke, and I can name ten more who could be as bad or worse in his place. We need tighter laws to improve the guardrails and prevent the next power monger from going free-range. Unfortunately I haven't seen any major reforms or controls by our lawmakers that will protect our government, courts, or systems going forward. The fact that Trump might be president again (or the Tuberville, House Speaker, or SCOTUS fiascos) shows how broken it all is.
My mental image has been him forever raging but mute, sitting in his wheelchair drooling into his lap. I feel a little bit bad about that, but not much.
I wouldn’t mind him remaining in the headlines under those circumstances.
Thank you for giving me the exact medical malfunction required. I don’t want a stroke to end him either.not yet.
I do believe P1135809 is evil in every sense. How he got to be that way is not the point--he made his choices to develop along the lines he did. That doesn’t change the fact that he is evil: He poses a danger to all people on this planet when installed in a power-position; he poses a mortal danger to this democracy and it’s citizens; he is a traitor and a stocastic terrorist. The World would be improved if he went the way of Hitler, who happens to be one of P1135809’s heroes.
Oh that's a big nope. You think he's bad now, try martyrdom. He needs to live a very long life, with multiple failed parole hearings, and then die in an orange jumpsuit. Alone.
Oh my! I agree with your comment above: the worst thing for Trump would be to become irrelevant. That cannot happen soon enough. I'm hoping for anonymity.
If that happens his minions will claim he was poisoned or something to that affect.
The “conspiracy theory” magat populace is well near 100%. Even those arrested, found guilty, and served time in prison for attacking the capital on Jan 6th still believe the election was stolen!
Perhaps each chicken could be assigned a particular trial or witness to follow. Im sure their cacklings would be informative and entertaining. Could they get spectator roosts in the courtroom? Maybe that one (forget name, sorry) that moves comfortably in different groups.
Donald’s going to have a really tough day if he chooses to watch ivanka on the stand (i missed whether he watched the boys.) i’d assign Tofu to cover that.
A pathetic but unintentionally hilarious moment when he ordered Tish or the judge or everybody to leave his children alone!
Today you are certainly doing the heavy lifting Joyce and making it seem so easy. I always reread your newsletters. An online classroom in real time. How fortunate to be part of an American learning curve that is so crucially important. Unwavering we will prevail. Thank you for your courage and always remembering to wear your hard hat 🇺🇸🗽🗳️📚❤️
Joyce, thanks for sticking with us! Gets so legally involved and confusing. WE can believe what you describe and tell us. Nice being “spoon fed,” my dear!
"All good evidence is prejudicial in the sense that it tends to prove the defendant’s guilt." As a young boy I recall this was one of my mother's favorite arguments, as "because I told you so" began to wear thin with me. Alas, now she's a Trump Talibangelical and evidence no longer matters. Where did I go wrong in the raising of my parents?
What you have written is stunning. It is fascinating and I am now settling in to read the motions before we hear back from you today on Jack Smith’s response. Your detail is amazing. Thank you Joyce. I am absolutely amazed that you have already read the motions and set all of this forth for us. I appreciate your mentioning that Jack Smith had carefully covered in his indictments that Trump could always use his first amendment rights to sprout forth talking points (lies). I noticed that in the indictment. Trump is on the campaign trail trying to convince people that his first amendment rights have been trumped on and that’s a bunch of hooey. We are in this together and we are your best 101 students! (We have the advantage of having the answers before the readings:) Thank you. Just one question about Trump’s attorneys, saying that Biden had wanted Trump to be indicted according to news reports. That can’t be entered into any court can it? I don’t remember seeing that anywhere. I recall Biden saying he was staying out of any business having to do with his attorney general and Trump. And what news reports? The Trump aligned Fox News organization was spewing falsehoods putting people like Powell’s on their newscasts. In fact, there has already been a court case that has cost Fox News a lot of money for lying about voting machines, and they fired one of their main newscasters. So that would put some shade on anything Fox had to say. So what news reports are they talking about where a Biden wanted Trump prosecuted? I think he wanted people who destroyed our Capitol and interfered with our vote. confirmation process to be prosecuted. Biden has been extremely discreet in not accusing Trump of fraud.
Ms. Joyce Vance: Your writing is so accurate and precise.
You might consider saving all of these materials you send us; collate them; edit and expand them; and publish your learning as either a West-Publishing Hornbook or a Casebook for law students.
As several famous pundits have observed, former President Trump’s defense strategy isn’t primarily intended to be evaluated in law. It’s mostly crafted to motivate his devoted followers. Just what actions they will eventually be inspired to undertake is unpredictable.
Thank you as well, Joyce. It will take a few reads to absorb it all. I'll also be watching you and everyone else on msnbc. Later...chickens, dog, cat, knitting, and a glass of wine to decompress and relax a bit after all this writing and explaining.
I’d be interested in whether you have an opinion on how the judicial system has changed in your lifetime. For example, were the courts always this politicized?
I was a family law litigator and later in my career, a mediator here in Cherry Hill NJ. Always in state court, never in Fed. NJ appoints judges , does not elect them. There is a tacit agreement that the judges are appointed alternately- first a dem, then a repub. The courts in NJ are not politicized IMO. I think that the current feel of "Politicization" in our court system comes from the issues presented for adjudication ( all the election challenges, Trump's criminal issues, etc -which had never been done before) and the media focus on which jurists were appointed by which president. I think that the various determinations by the many judges that heard the challenges belies the fear of significant politicization. BUT, I do worry about the future if Trump were reelected!
Thank you for your insights David. I guess with alternating parties, the appointment approach to judgeship beats the election approach. Throw in some term limits, particularly for the US Supreme Court, and we might be looking at progress. Thanks again.
Wow! Joyce. So much detail and I understand criminal law to an extent. Will be rereading this column. What’s amazing is that a former president is in court for these crimes and also leading some polls re: the next election. Everyone in America should be required to read your words!
I reread last night's post and saved it, will read this again later.
Thank you Joyce, this is a lot of writing and I appreciate your efforts to help us understand the legalse.
Amen Kathi! Especially the Maga, who believe Trump when he says, his first amendment rights are being suppressed. Jack Smith said, right in his indictment, that none of the indictment took away Trump’s right to his first amendment speech.
Trump has the biggest megaphone in this country. Unfortunately bigger than Biden because the media is driven by $$. Washington Post, my local newspaper, lost $100 mil since Trump left the WH
Yikes! I subscribe to WaPo and NYT. I cancelled Wall Street Journal because of their Trump bias.
I noticed that too but fortunately never subscribed.
Trump spoke after court: I think I saw his attorney (guy in glasses standing behind him) roll his eyes. I do not have television - watched it on CNN youtube short just posted.
I don't watch TV news. And I lived without television for 20 years.
I do like to at least read the headlines which you can do without paying. Lots of people read what they print and I think it's good to know what they introduce into the public sphere.
You can still read SOME of the articles in the WSJ app after you cancel. Also you can search the title of a particular article and sometimes find it at another website. They do have some excellent investigative journalists. I too do not want to give $ to the Murdochs.
I’m disgusted with WSJ and their Trump bias. But I’m going to subscribe for this year. I too the WSJ for 30 years but their blatant support of Trump became too much.
I understand
I kept my sub to the WSJ. I cannot stand their editorial policy but the news part of the paper is super-excellent. I just ignore the editorial and op-ed pages (unless it's Peggy Noonan who can be just excellent). And no paper comes close to the superb job the WSJ does with graphs and other similar display of easy-to-understand numbers. I recommend it, just stay away from their opinion pages.
Ok Dick, back i go. I had it for 3 years. One of their Trump favoring articles last year was too much for me. Now I am upset w the Economist. They were always decent - but catering to thin skinned Americans now. Pretty soon I will be down too Wired and Joyce’s Substack;)
Kathi, Considering the media constitute a commercial, profit-driven enterprise, fair or not, it falls on Biden, perhaps aided by more charismatic surrogates, to present content, we all know to be important to the public interest, in a way that sets the expectation of attracting a sizable enough audience to meet profit thresholds.
It is the responsibility of news organizations to report important news that we need to know to make us well-informed citizens. If the way news organizations are funded inhibits that, then we need new funding models.
Ruthie, While I don’t disagree, probably the most consequential election of our lives is less than a year away, leaving no time for the warranted reform you rightly would propose. Accordingly, Biden and fellow Democratic leadership must take far greater advantage of the bully pulpit with messaging so decisive and disciplined so not to allow MAGA deceptions and distortions to go unanswered.
More votes for dems equals saving our Republic.🗳️🗳️🗳️🗳️🗳️🗳️🗳️🗳️
Dems need a talented and charismatic messenger out there yesterday!! We are getting clobbered by the maga media machine. Fight fire with fire. Speeches about Bidenomics aren't going to do it.
Excellence point!!!
Biden uses the bully pulpit better than any other Democrat but Republicans have more success and they also lie when using it
Only if such "funding models" are not government controlled. Free enterprise will always have its downside, but the original idea of competition creating high quality products is intrinsic to our economic system. What went wrong is the fact that people seem to prefer not to care - especially young people who grew up taking democracy and freedom for granted. So news has been replaced in large part by infotainment and sensationalism.
Well, the Wash Post just lost my subscription for treating right-wing drivel filled with lies, omissions and red-herrings by the likes of Theissen and George Will as valid “opinions.” Then, they censored my responses. I don’t need to be paying for that BS.
Neither are Pro Trump but they generate a lot of Trump news. Both have exposed his fraud and criminality
It’s kind of “pro- trump” to give him so much free press. That is a kind of important bias.
Jennifer Rubin is a Post columnist but repeatedly calls out the Media for bias. Her columns are excellent. She is a former Republican and writes about Biden accomplishments. She is excellent. I subscribe to her Post newsletter
On Jen Rubin’s Green Room podcast a couple weeks ago she said very clearly that we should all ignore the polls. I love how she consistently calls out the Media.
Kathi, Regrettably, with the emergence of ancient tribalisms that have been revitalized under the aegis of perceived, longstanding grievances, I expect a substantial swath of the population would shield themselves from Joyce’s words. Please be assured that I’m not advocating they not be circulated, only that a sizable number of the folks for whom we would want them to matter would likely exhibit strong resistance. I note this observation, because, while we can’t allow ourselves to become paralyzed, we are right to fear the apparent hostile takeover of one of our two major parties.
Thank you for such a well written post..
Ivan, I deeply appreciate your kind words.
May I ask what you taught at the university level?
Ivan, Thanks for asking. I taught English.
People don’t pay attention to the polls until a few months before the election. This is all hype.
I agree but the media spins. The polls have been wrong since 2016.
Does anybody know whether polling is still done via landlines? Cuz that's just stupid.
Exactly!
Some (many?) polls have been wrong, but many have been right. And some fall somewhere in-between. I watch 'em but take them with a grain of salt. It's good to know what others are seeing (and believing).
I'm going to have to re-read this post. It is extremely detailed and I'm not versed in 'legalese'. Even so, I did gain from it that SC Smith and his team have to be laser focused to deal with all this, and that they must have patience and restraint the likes of which I do not. I'm grateful for them, as well as you, Joyce. Your explanations, even though it takes more than one reading, are a great replacement to network news. Thank you.
This is a tough, but important one, and I worked on it for about a week (and cut about twice as much out as ended up in, in hopes it would be accessible). Like you say, I think this is one where we have to be willing to study the issues, and it may take more than one pass to fully understand them. Thanks for being willing to do the heavy lifting here!
"In fact, his best ambition may be to delay the trial, perhaps until after the election, with a messy appeal process."
This indeed is the ultimate quest, tRump's "dispositive" goal...not for his appeals to succeed on their putative "merits", but for protraction of the case(s) well beyond the 2024 elections, where - if we believe the game plan outlined in "Project 2025" - if elected he'll simply make all of this just go away. It has been obvious since (a) the indictments, and (b) his announced candidacy, that the strategy was: delay-delay- delay, and delay again, taking advantage of the entirety of the procedural options offered to criminal defendants in the state and federal judicial system for appellate relief, all the way to SCOTUS if needs must, and the months if not years these appeals can consume before final decisions are rendered. And, truth be told, the defendant is indeed succeeding to date...all that is required now is for him to be elected ca. 12 months from now, however horrifying such a prospect can be to the non-NAGA majority.
Let us hope that the electorate itself begins to take responsibility for the heavy lifting necessary to keep democracy healthy.
Isn't it wonderful getting the actual facts?!
Tell me again, he is not being treated differently. I am a great admirer of yours Joyce but there is so much of what I think of as BS he is getting away with. Did the Rosenburg's get this kind of treatment before they were hung; to this day many believing his wife was innocent? I am sick and tire of our government giving this SOB the long stretch of the law. The only reason is, he is running again; the only other possible reason is again our AG's interference not wanting to look political, while looking political. No, I am not a lawyer and I know it shows, but this whole thing re Trump is beyond disgusting and as far as I am concerned a betrayal of the U. S. Constitution and the American people. Sick of the whole damn thing. And as this continues the Republicans will only get worse seeing him get away with so much.
Hi Marilyn, When Jack Smith issued his first indictments, he gave a news conference in which he asked every American to read the indictments. When he finished his news conference, he stated that he wanted us to remember that “everyone is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.”
There were four areas in the indictments. I read every word, and I can see that he is proceeding to convict Trump in a court of law. That includes a jury trial in this case, not a bench trial as in New York. It is so important for everyone to read the indictments to see how clearly and carefully Jack Smith has stated Trump's first amendment rights are not being questioned. The outcome/translation of that is Trump is free to go on the campaign trail and continue to lie to the MAGA. One doesn’t need to listen to his entire speech, but a glimpse here and there of perhaps 10 seconds of a short YouTube can show you that he continues to say his first amendment rights are being trampled. Nothing is further from the truth. And Jack Smith spelled this out in the indictments. If you want to share the indictments with friends and family, Joyce has linked them here on her substack. And an MSNBC newscaster has read every single one as an audio and as well another person has posted a YouTube of himself reading the indictments So we can just watch and listen (whether you have read them. It’s a nice refresher). Then you can see how much Jack Smith and his team have been dotting the i's, and crossing the t's to convict Trump in a court of law. So much of the process is frustrating because Trump is allowed by law to file motions for dismissal during a certain amount of time, and we knew that was coming. It’s new territory to bring criminal charges against a former president, so there is a lot of i dotting and t crossing to get it right. I hear your frustration. We have the best of the best in Jack Smith. I know he’s not like General Patton, charging through enemy lines, ignoring telegrams instructing him not to do so. Our instinct is to get rid of this egregious example who was elected in 2016. He’s going to jail and I hope that can give you some comfort today. He won’t be going to a regular jail, it’ll be something like Langley with high security. What they (Jack and Company) want to do by the way, is make such a solid case that an appeal will fail. 💙 I hope if you haven’t already seen Jack Smith on the day,he filed the indictments that you’ll pull up that YouTube and watch it. None of us want to sit down and read 70 pages of legalese, but since he made such a point of asking us to do it, I did so.
Well presented here and most appreciated. It is so important to stay on track 🇺🇸🗽🗳️
Kumbayah! 💙 I actually know and have known folks in the business world (not academe so much, my first career that tamed me down), but who were Patton incarnated doing business and legal. And brilliant. It was fun to watch them operate even when they were doing legal. (But especially when they were doing business - and doing it ethically. There is a huge difference between ethical business and the kind Trump does:) But we can't do Patton here. This jackass is the former president of the United States. He is like a million headed snake. And so are his attorneys. Nothing can be taken for granted. So our best gift to Joyce who does so much for us is to be her good students and read every word so we can become educated. She is giving us the answers to the test. We just need to read them. And send positive energy to Jack Smith.
🙏
I read it with an online legal reference dictionary at the ready.
What is the link to your online legal ref dictionary?
I'm a subscriber of https://dictionary.law.com/ you can search by several different methods.
Cool
Is it specific to Florida law or is Constitional Law accessible? Thank you from SC.
Thank you!
Impressive Valere. I need to read those indictments. Thank you for your clarity today.
When you finish, read the Georgia indictment. It is a soap. Quoting Walt texting Melania about whether POTUS has decided to take 'the boxes in the living quarters' to NJ ("Morning Ma'am"). Her response: "No. They are not going. The plane is full of my luggage." Sooooo....missing documentation found: we now know how she keeps herself in all of those spankin white levis. She has them on the plane in hundreds of pieces of luggage!! Read on....
Thanks again for taking the time to legalsplain all the details for us.
I don't legalsplain. Just experience. I've had top drawer attorneys - and some off the rails who should be disbarred (in my view). Top drawer attorneys dot i's and cross t's and do law. They don't make it up on the fly. And they tame down their clients. Trump has had a whole crew of attorneys and some have likely fired him (that's what attorneys do when clients will not follow their advice). That woman in NY today is going to lose Trump's case for him. He already has been found for fraud: Judge Engoron is going to throw the book at Trump with the highest amount of dollars awarded in the fine - and rip away his businesses license for the maximum number of years - because of her. Judge already knows what an idiot Trump is: but attorneys need to respect the judge no matter what. Judge Engoron is going to smack Trump because of her. If he smacks her right away, she can scream to the press: "Well, I told you Judge Engoron was biased against us!" I wonder if he can increase the amount NY AG is asking? If he can, look for that to happen.
Thank you.
Gloria, I am not an attorney, thus I cannot explain anything legally. But I have had some top-drawer attorneys in our business. I know from one of them that he would had fired clients who would not take his advice. And I watched all of them in court. Their behavior was much different from going to lunch with the judge and such. You must say "Yes Your Honor" and not yap back. One can be made as a hornet, but you have to stuff it until lunch time. In any other case, Judge Engoron would slap that woman hard with something. She seems to be begging for him to do that, so she can go all drama to the news crews outside. It's all about the Trump victims at this point. But what about the banks that were bamboozled? Or private investors, should they have funds tied up in the properties? Judge Engoron has asked Lady Attorney (Habbas?) and the other attorney to control Trump. Trump wants to take over the courtroom and pretend his is the victim. Judge Engoron is going overboard to not allow Trump to say that his First Amendment rights are dismissed. It's my hunch that Lady Attorney has lost the case for Trump - so far as how much they will be fined. She is terrible.
Wow. Indeed.
I read the indictment as well, and found it to be very well written and not terribly difficult to digest. This is such an important moment in our nation's history that the effort is very much worthwhile. I may even read it again before gathering with family and friends on Thanksgiving. They'll probably make me sit outside by myself.
Imagine if we'd have had Joyce on Substack back during the Watergate days. These writings are invaluable.
Maybe we should all just go to Joyce’s for Thanksgiving. I’m sort of in the same boat and I dare not mention much about politics in my crew. Half are Blue. But there are some who would be ‘ruffled.’ it’s odd that the Blues never are -and just about crawl across the table to make peace, but the Reds have a chip. Yes, do read just in case you have a chance to talk to someone with an open mind. And let them know about Joyce’s substack:))💙
It has always baffled me as to why some people are offended by discussions of politics. What could be more important? Aristotle referred to political science as the "architectonic science." So much of the fabric of our daily lives is a reflection of the structure of our law and politics.
Tsk tsk.
Agree 100%. I think they have an impulse that makes them want to convert anyone who is not of their party or mindset. And that has intensified in the last few years. Anyway, that’s my take on it.
PS, And do read the Miami document indictment. It reads just like a soap opera with Melania telling Walt Nuata: “the boxes can’t go to New Jersey because the plane is full of my luggage”… And they copied the text messages on that diatribe exactly word for word, including Walt’s smiley face when he texted back that he would “talk to POTUS.” So that one’s worth reading, because some of us don’t have time to watch the soaps. And for me, at least answer to why she always clean white Levi’s to wear: how many pairs did she pack in that luggage? (more than 100).
But the indictment I’m waiting for is the pillow guy. That one’s going to have some text messages. He looks like he spends his time in back alleys and I’m just saying this is my personal opinion allegedly. And I’d like to see text messages from MTG. I just stopped myself and backed up the bus and erased what she looks like. No snide, no sniping. But the Pillow Guy??? I’m sure Jack Smith knows if he was in the inner circle.
Marilyn, I so agree with you. He is being treated very differently than any other person in our country . I know he was President but that makes it even worse! All these delays being granted to him are ridiculous . This is not equal justice under the law.
Absolutely no question he is getting favored treatment. Chutkan and Engoron are blatantly tip toeing. If it were any of us who'd acted in any of these ways we'd be inarcerated! Slandering a Judge's clerk would last exactly 5mins at which point the defendant would have been remanded to custody in any of the courts I was in over a 22yr period.
And just look at the favored treatment Judge Cannon has given him! For the life of me, why hasn’t that case been taken out of her overtly biased and incompetent hands?
Farcical the idiot who believes he would be king takes not the time to recall even one genuine kindness he has bestowed on others and thus seals his fate to the unknown and forgotten.
Wow! Tutone, you are on fire!
I guess so. Slightly amused at all the disdain knowing full well TFG will have his day but probably not the one imagined.
I think his woman attorney in NY is going to have her own day. But not the one she has imagined either. Judge Engoron is careful about handling Trump. But he is not liking attorney lady's disrespecting him. That's not how is done. She should be saying 'yes your honor' but she is blasting him to his face. Wow! I predict he will award the State the highest possible amount and file something against attorney lady later. I don't know if that is allowed. But there is a reason attorney's know how to say: "Yes Your Honor" even if they lose and disagree." This lady attorney is blowing it. No television - watched the online feed on messages earlier today.
Habba has obviously not looked into what happens to people post trump. I think Habba should be practicing “would you like fries with your burger” for her post trump era...oh wait burger places have higher hiring standards.
Oh my! LOL, indeed. But it’s the judge was going to get rid of her.
Thanks for a good laugh 😂
I saw her blasting the judge on Meidas Touch Network. She was unprofessional and I was frankly embarrassed.
He’ll take care of her when he hands Trump his loss. She’s very green. That’s unacceptable behavior.
God, just let the Fatal Hamberder make all this moot - a nice, public, fatal massive myocardial farction, preferably mid-rant at the next Nuremberg Rally, in front of the drooling MAGAts, flopping around on the stage like a beached whale.
As a physician, I don't wish death on anyone. Just a dominant hemisphere stroke. He can live, but not speak, not move his dominant arm or leg. Or, a brainstem stroke with a 'locked in' syndrome. Can you imagine being locked inside that head for his duration?
I have wished for this a long time ago. Poetic justice for all his ridicule of the disabled.
It doesn't really help to wish ill on those we oppose, especially as doctors. Trump could have a stroke, and I can name ten more who could be as bad or worse in his place. We need tighter laws to improve the guardrails and prevent the next power monger from going free-range. Unfortunately I haven't seen any major reforms or controls by our lawmakers that will protect our government, courts, or systems going forward. The fact that Trump might be president again (or the Tuberville, House Speaker, or SCOTUS fiascos) shows how broken it all is.
I suspect things might get a bit tighter once this GQP cancer dies, says the oncologist.
Oh, you're no fun.
I certainly didn't expect you to think so, says the anesthesiologist ... 8^)
I challenge you ... name me 10 worse persons than Trump. I certainly can't do so.
Ohhhh.... those are gooooooodddd..... mmmmmmmmm.... :-)
Dr. Pepper? 😂
Yup!
My mental image has been him forever raging but mute, sitting in his wheelchair drooling into his lap. I feel a little bit bad about that, but not much.
I wouldn’t mind him remaining in the headlines under those circumstances.
Thank you for giving me the exact medical malfunction required. I don’t want a stroke to end him either.not yet.
I do believe P1135809 is evil in every sense. How he got to be that way is not the point--he made his choices to develop along the lines he did. That doesn’t change the fact that he is evil: He poses a danger to all people on this planet when installed in a power-position; he poses a mortal danger to this democracy and it’s citizens; he is a traitor and a stocastic terrorist. The World would be improved if he went the way of Hitler, who happens to be one of P1135809’s heroes.
Oh that's a big nope. You think he's bad now, try martyrdom. He needs to live a very long life, with multiple failed parole hearings, and then die in an orange jumpsuit. Alone.
Alone and completely forgotten in a windowless 8x10 cell on the third sub-basement of the Florence SuperMax. I've had this dream a long time. :-)
Exactly. He’s an attention whore. That would be his worst nightmare.
Absolutely. And we do not want to be accused of wishing him harm or a stroke. He probably has metabolic syndrome. But he can change his diet.
One of my office assistants was being pushed around by the others, so she started bringing in boxes of donuts. They never did catch on.
Oh my! I agree with your comment above: the worst thing for Trump would be to become irrelevant. That cannot happen soon enough. I'm hoping for anonymity.
He could but he won't.
That’s another benefit of the Suoermax. Better diet. Might have to eat a carrot.
I prefer pancreatic cancer, kills you quick but hurts like hell before you go.
That works.
If that happens his minions will claim he was poisoned or something to that affect.
The “conspiracy theory” magat populace is well near 100%. Even those arrested, found guilty, and served time in prison for attacking the capital on Jan 6th still believe the election was stolen!
You mean stollen? 😂
I have concerns that the preservatives in said berders are not helping US here. 😐
TCinLA: What imagery!
I did used to be a screenwriter. :-)
Easy there. His fate is sealed.
Lord, hear our prayer. Let the orange one choke on his meal. Give us peace, Lord.
Not wishing ill health on anyone. Just commenting on the 'beached whale.' He has free will. He can change - his diet needs to change.
I wouldn't hold my breath expecting a lifetime asswipe to ever stop anything about his lifetime asswipery.
Thanks for this Joyce! It is a LOT! Maybe tomorrow before more of this, we need some chickens?
Do we get chickens on court days?
Perhaps each chicken could be assigned a particular trial or witness to follow. Im sure their cacklings would be informative and entertaining. Could they get spectator roosts in the courtroom? Maybe that one (forget name, sorry) that moves comfortably in different groups.
Donald’s going to have a really tough day if he chooses to watch ivanka on the stand (i missed whether he watched the boys.) i’d assign Tofu to cover that.
A pathetic but unintentionally hilarious moment when he ordered Tish or the judge or everybody to leave his children alone!
Brilliant! Her name is Toot:))
Of course! Sorry Toot!!!
🐓
Thank you Joyce!
Today you are certainly doing the heavy lifting Joyce and making it seem so easy. I always reread your newsletters. An online classroom in real time. How fortunate to be part of an American learning curve that is so crucially important. Unwavering we will prevail. Thank you for your courage and always remembering to wear your hard hat 🇺🇸🗽🗳️📚❤️
Joyce, thanks for sticking with us! Gets so legally involved and confusing. WE can believe what you describe and tell us. Nice being “spoon fed,” my dear!
"All good evidence is prejudicial in the sense that it tends to prove the defendant’s guilt." As a young boy I recall this was one of my mother's favorite arguments, as "because I told you so" began to wear thin with me. Alas, now she's a Trump Talibangelical and evidence no longer matters. Where did I go wrong in the raising of my parents?
What you have written is stunning. It is fascinating and I am now settling in to read the motions before we hear back from you today on Jack Smith’s response. Your detail is amazing. Thank you Joyce. I am absolutely amazed that you have already read the motions and set all of this forth for us. I appreciate your mentioning that Jack Smith had carefully covered in his indictments that Trump could always use his first amendment rights to sprout forth talking points (lies). I noticed that in the indictment. Trump is on the campaign trail trying to convince people that his first amendment rights have been trumped on and that’s a bunch of hooey. We are in this together and we are your best 101 students! (We have the advantage of having the answers before the readings:) Thank you. Just one question about Trump’s attorneys, saying that Biden had wanted Trump to be indicted according to news reports. That can’t be entered into any court can it? I don’t remember seeing that anywhere. I recall Biden saying he was staying out of any business having to do with his attorney general and Trump. And what news reports? The Trump aligned Fox News organization was spewing falsehoods putting people like Powell’s on their newscasts. In fact, there has already been a court case that has cost Fox News a lot of money for lying about voting machines, and they fired one of their main newscasters. So that would put some shade on anything Fox had to say. So what news reports are they talking about where a Biden wanted Trump prosecuted? I think he wanted people who destroyed our Capitol and interfered with our vote. confirmation process to be prosecuted. Biden has been extremely discreet in not accusing Trump of fraud.
🙏
Well done, as always, Joyce. Lock him up!
Ms. Joyce Vance: Your writing is so accurate and precise.
You might consider saving all of these materials you send us; collate them; edit and expand them; and publish your learning as either a West-Publishing Hornbook or a Casebook for law students.
Your writing is that good!
I’m sure there’s a series of books 📚 in the making.
As several famous pundits have observed, former President Trump’s defense strategy isn’t primarily intended to be evaluated in law. It’s mostly crafted to motivate his devoted followers. Just what actions they will eventually be inspired to undertake is unpredictable.
If media could catch 45 debasing his loyal followers it might be a start.
Thank you as well, Joyce. It will take a few reads to absorb it all. I'll also be watching you and everyone else on msnbc. Later...chickens, dog, cat, knitting, and a glass of wine to decompress and relax a bit after all this writing and explaining.
Thank you Joyce. I am grateful that you are you and I love the deep dives!
It does help to be a retired attorney. Thanks for the explanation!
I’d be interested in whether you have an opinion on how the judicial system has changed in your lifetime. For example, were the courts always this politicized?
I was a family law litigator and later in my career, a mediator here in Cherry Hill NJ. Always in state court, never in Fed. NJ appoints judges , does not elect them. There is a tacit agreement that the judges are appointed alternately- first a dem, then a repub. The courts in NJ are not politicized IMO. I think that the current feel of "Politicization" in our court system comes from the issues presented for adjudication ( all the election challenges, Trump's criminal issues, etc -which had never been done before) and the media focus on which jurists were appointed by which president. I think that the various determinations by the many judges that heard the challenges belies the fear of significant politicization. BUT, I do worry about the future if Trump were reelected!
Thank you for your insights David. I guess with alternating parties, the appointment approach to judgeship beats the election approach. Throw in some term limits, particularly for the US Supreme Court, and we might be looking at progress. Thanks again.