If we're going to be sued based on "intention", then most of us are in danger of being sued. Johnson was fired because of his actions not because of Griffin's intention.
You’re mixing up the merits of the claim --very weak-- with the issue of which court hears it. The claim is ridiculous. But when you mobilize people to adversely impact someone on another state, that is the state to hear claims against you.
Disagree. If Johnson had not acted like an ass and harassed that young man there would be no reason for his company to fire him. Sure, she made his employer aware of what he did, but they didn't fire him because of what Griffin did on social media. They fired him because of his actions. Just like other employers throughout the country have fired employees for atrocious behavior that came to their attention through social media.
I’m just saying I don’t conduct myself as such but her instigation got him fired or at least it can be argued. I’m not defending him I’m looking at it objectively. Understand, I love Kathy Griffin.
Sorry, Bill. You can't blame the messenger. It's the harmful actions that are the problem.
If accurately reporting injurious actions makes you vulnerable to being sued, we're all in big trouble. As Joyce wrote: "...it will have broad implications for...the ability of people to block the truth about their actions being shared...this is a case about whether it's wrong to share the truth."
I don't doubt Johnson's lawyer will argue that very thing. I would simply show Johnson yelling expletives at a young man because he was in a dress and then hitting the date inadvertently because he was being videotaped. Let's see - harassment and assault. The employer would have found out eventually and fired Johnson.
Agreed - the incident was widely shared online, and I'm sure the employer would have become aware of it quickly whether Griffin tagged him or not. She just happens to be a popular liberal comedian and therefore an attractive target for "anti-wokeness" culture war.
Sorry, I'm not seeing a direct, causal connection. The company chose to fire him. They could have chosen otherwise. They could have chosen otherwise even if Kathy Griffin and a dozen friends showed up in their boardroom and demanded that they fire him. What got Mr. Johnson fired was his own behavior combined with the fact that his employer didn't like it.
I don’t think Kathy had intent to get him fired because she didn’t have any way to know that he even had a job. She was just pointing to this kind of misbehavior. The logical way to get someone fired is to write a letter to the employer. You don’t go on national television or on a stage.
Who the heck knows. I think it was. I can’t argue points of law. I once thought I could sue my local parking infractions agency for giving me a ticket or at least sue for damages of spending $200 to file but a lawyer friend said nada. So I paid the original fine and they dropped the late charges.
Kathy Griffin was sued because she's a "deep pocket" and Johnson wants money instead of acknowledging that his actions, in public, caused him to be fired. He doesn't want any personal responsibility, but wants to put the blame on someone else.
He wants to "own" a lib'rul, especially one from California. Another point on why we should secede and take the world's fifth-strongest economy with us and let the rednecks go to hell.
TC, beg to differ, but for unrelated reasons. Well, sort of. Give the place back to the people it was stolen from. Not talking Mexico, but indigenous and mixta people, spanish speaking or not. Do the thing we did with other illegally acquired territories and write a constitution that requires the legislature be composed of representatives descended from the original inhabitants. Ditto administrative branch. Anglos have to apply for citizenship. The wall would be at the original northern border, to keep the likes of the Alamo folks out of Texas. Texans them selves get to decide whether to be an independent nation or rejoin Mexico.
Yeah, I'm letting my imagination run with this (as are you), but there's a point to be made here. We come up with the wrong solutions all the time and don't have the sense to think them through before acting on them. The Alamo was a travesty and so is Texas statehood. We just keep doing stuff like this and then wonder what went wrong. (Iraq? Afghanistan? Philippines? Hawaii? The whole country west of the Appalachians? etc.
Also east of the Appalachians, except for Pennsylvania, where my Quaker ancestors were the only ones who dealt honestly with the Native Americans about obtaining their original colony.
Thanks, TC. Quibble with you on one point: Penn himself did deal with indigenous within the context of paying them for land- and then bragged to buddies about the deals he got because of their naivete about how white people regarded land.
I'm descended from Quakers too, and it was Quakers who set up the infamous Carlysle Indian School. I'm still a sort-of-practicing Quaker, but am often startled by the remnants of bigotry that some Quakers still harbor. Why I am currently unaffiliated with a meeting. Also, I find myself increasingly drawn back to the traditional spiritual beliefs of my indigenous ancestors and am learning from their descendants. They are beliefs I feel at home with. The framework still exists in spite of the loss of so much of the detail.
Hey, I live in FL & I periodically check to make sure we are part of the Union. Since my “little feet” governor has been running for Biden’s job he’s not been ripping through our institutions & freedoms with complete abandon. However, I’m sure that once he does NOT get the GOP nominee he’s going to be back to stomp on our healthcare, ban more books, crush our educational system & hire more police officers from other states with overly aggressive behaviors. And he will continue to take the credit for any infrastructure improvements as a result of Biden’s work. As bad as it is here, TX is on steroids. They govern like they’re raging on roids. I have a feeling it’s going to get worse until some of these court cases are completed & people go to jail!
They only have a strong economy because of the environmental damage they do. And the fact that FEMA shows up whenever they have another climate driven disaster. Or a chemical plant blows up.
Florida also could be said to have a strong economy, but not if it’s under water.
Well said. I totally agree. Interesting that Griffin wasn't the party who fired him yet she's being sigled out for drawing attention to what Johnson did. The employer, though, was the final decisionmaker as to whether Johnson should be fired for something that was not at the work site and had nothing to do with his employment. Despite that, it appears that Johnson has no problem with his employer making the actual decision to terminate his employment. He reserves his wrath, instead, for the messenger.
Thank you for saying it. I had the same thought- absolutely fabulous! What a charming couple they made. Too bad some fink with an attitude thought he had the right to spoil it for them. I hope Griffin's posting the video helped.
I have always loved Kathy Griffin. (No relation ) and was incensed at her losses when the severed head issue came about.
As a point of law, would a person living in Tennessee and witnessing the man’s actions toward the teen and then calling his employer causing an adverse job action be subject to the same exposure?
Witnessing the behavior and reporting a factual account to the company causing job loss.
The Tennessee resident could be sued in Tennessee. Whether he would be found liable is a whole separate question.
My grandfather always said "You can sue anyone for anything. Whether you can WIN or not is another matter. I could sue you because your last name caused me emotional distress. Wouldn't go far. I was a lawyer for a surety company. I got sued for a million dollars (pro se) by a guy because I wrote to his mother reminding her that she was an indemnitor on his bond. Freaked my daughter out, but I wasn't worried. A fellow attorney in my office just got it dismissed because writing that letter wasn't indeed actionable.
Many states have what are called Anti-Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation [Anti-SLAPP) for those folks that are merely participating public policy matters.
BONUS: I recovered all attorney fees & costs incurred defending the nuisance suits for many clients.
Hoping that it is not actionable, and that Kathy Griffin can escape Mr Johnson's morass by motion rather than having to sit in front of a Tennessee jury.
Good points. But doesn’t go to Joyce’s suggestion that there is something over the top about jurisdiction in Tennessee. As I mention below, I don’t see it.
Interesting. I don’t know I just don’t have need to snitch on others I have my own problems and life to lead. So it’s foreign matter. I do some stand up and the women I talk about are never mentioned by name. I don’t kiss and tell. By name.
What is amazing is that it all started on another platform by other people and all Kathy Griffin did was retweet something posted somewhere else first & then mention where he worked. She Did Not Start this posting, and if intention is all you need, everyone is in jeopardy with this kind of attempt to punish. Punish : 1) a woman, 2)a woman that’s liberal and from ohhh that scary California 3) this guy who behaved like a turd to a couple of kids and his bosses caught wind of it. 4) His bosses fired him for his disgusting behavior.
Everyone for years Has Known that stuff on the internet and Social Media IS and has been a reason Your Boss and Your Company Can Fire You.
A clown that behaves like this Is Responsible for his company seeing that - not anyone else.
He acted like an ass, he hit someone who probably was a minor holding a phone AND it’s “someone else’s” fault...
yeah-NO.
Do we even know if the company saw the original post on the 1st platform - or just how they caught wind of his actions? The key being: HIS Actions.
So if Griffin had just Tweeted the information and video without urging her followers to pressure the employer to fire the guy, there would be no basis for "intent." Point taken. It's okay to mock someone and spread information of their observable failings but NOT to urge others to act against the person. That principle should apply to the Urger-in-Chief on January 6, 2021.
I didn't see the information about urging her followers to take action against Mr Johnson. If that happened, then Ms Griffin may very well have to face a Tennessee jury. Joyce Vance, please help us keep tabs on how your friend fares in this matter. Thank you.
Well, if Griffin can be sued for tweeting something that caused Johnson to lose his job, Trump, Guiliani, etc. should be able to be sued for doxing and causing trouble for any number of people.
It seems to me that Mr. Johnson publically engaged in hate speech toward a teen who was simply trying to have fun and express himself. Ms. Griffin was courageous to have called him out. He lost his job because of his own actions.
I met Judge Sutton about 10 years ago, when he was, I think, chair of the Advisory Committee on the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure (a committee whose work is even more exciting than it sounds). He was a very intelligent and pleasant man. But the Sixth Circuit has become a real stickler and a haven for some nutty theories, especially when they protect the rights of the rich and skewer ordinary folks. This case sounds in line with that. It certainly should not be a precedent for changing the law so far as where suits can be filed.
IMHO, this entire suit is laughable and should not even be considered by the courts. WHAT is this country coming to, when nobody can give their opinion without being sued by some snowflake?
Sad that this is happening but consistent with what is happening nationally with legislators like Johnson, Gaetz, etc etc who continue to do the bidding of a corrupt, lying former president while pretending they have the moral high ground. The rule of law is under siege by the zealot minority. We all need to use our voices and our votes to reclaim sanity.
I am wondering about the implications for people whose behavior is posted on social media and that results in a national public outcry it would seem whether an Ivy League university or any other private employer would want to know how much perceived or actual harm would ensue by continuing that employment. After all, most employers have codes of conduct.
What an informative article, Joyce. Thanks. It will be interesting to see how the court handles this, as I've seen many social media posts about obnoxious people & many, including myself, have reposted them hoping an employer sees their racists/homophobic/whatever employee in action. Something to seriously think before reposting such posts.
I’m thinking that our judicial system has become a laughable mess. When I’ve sought legal help in the past I have been discouraged, every time, from pursuing remedy because it’s expensive and I would likely not receive any remuneration. I’m neither rich nor interested in becoming rich, but comfortable is not an unreasonable expectation. However, our system is not reasonable for any who don’t have deep pockets. Ergo, the rich get off and/or richer.
I am not trained in the law, but does anyone else see a similarity between this story and the problem a "whistleblower" faces upon revealing wrong-doing by an employer? There is a tendency to want to blame the messenger, instead of focusing on the alleged malfeasance.
If we're going to be sued based on "intention", then most of us are in danger of being sued. Johnson was fired because of his actions not because of Griffin's intention.
See my comment elsewhere on this thread about the difference between a jurisdictional issue and an issue on the merits.
You’re mixing up the merits of the claim --very weak-- with the issue of which court hears it. The claim is ridiculous. But when you mobilize people to adversely impact someone on another state, that is the state to hear claims against you.
Well… here is where I can’t argue law I’m not an attorney. But her actions did get him fired.
Disagree. If Johnson had not acted like an ass and harassed that young man there would be no reason for his company to fire him. Sure, she made his employer aware of what he did, but they didn't fire him because of what Griffin did on social media. They fired him because of his actions. Just like other employers throughout the country have fired employees for atrocious behavior that came to their attention through social media.
And who's to say she is the only one who informed her employer of his actions?
I’m just saying I don’t conduct myself as such but her instigation got him fired or at least it can be argued. I’m not defending him I’m looking at it objectively. Understand, I love Kathy Griffin.
Sorry, Bill. You can't blame the messenger. It's the harmful actions that are the problem.
If accurately reporting injurious actions makes you vulnerable to being sued, we're all in big trouble. As Joyce wrote: "...it will have broad implications for...the ability of people to block the truth about their actions being shared...this is a case about whether it's wrong to share the truth."
I don't doubt Johnson's lawyer will argue that very thing. I would simply show Johnson yelling expletives at a young man because he was in a dress and then hitting the date inadvertently because he was being videotaped. Let's see - harassment and assault. The employer would have found out eventually and fired Johnson.
Agreed - the incident was widely shared online, and I'm sure the employer would have become aware of it quickly whether Griffin tagged him or not. She just happens to be a popular liberal comedian and therefore an attractive target for "anti-wokeness" culture war.
No. His actions are what got him fired.
His actions.
No, HIS actions got him fired.
So if I walk across the street against a red light and get hit, whose fault is it?
Sorry, I'm not seeing a direct, causal connection. The company chose to fire him. They could have chosen otherwise. They could have chosen otherwise even if Kathy Griffin and a dozen friends showed up in their boardroom and demanded that they fire him. What got Mr. Johnson fired was his own behavior combined with the fact that his employer didn't like it.
But Bill, was that her "intent"?
I don’t think Kathy had intent to get him fired because she didn’t have any way to know that he even had a job. She was just pointing to this kind of misbehavior. The logical way to get someone fired is to write a letter to the employer. You don’t go on national television or on a stage.
Who the heck knows. I think it was. I can’t argue points of law. I once thought I could sue my local parking infractions agency for giving me a ticket or at least sue for damages of spending $200 to file but a lawyer friend said nada. So I paid the original fine and they dropped the late charges.
And he deserved to get fired. However, it is clear he cannot understand what an a--hole he is!
Kathy Griffin was sued because she's a "deep pocket" and Johnson wants money instead of acknowledging that his actions, in public, caused him to be fired. He doesn't want any personal responsibility, but wants to put the blame on someone else.
He wants to "own" a lib'rul, especially one from California. Another point on why we should secede and take the world's fifth-strongest economy with us and let the rednecks go to hell.
Please don't secede. I don't want to need a passport when I visit.
Might Texas compare close to California in the “strongest economy” category? Some days it feels and reads like they have seceded?
They have a strong economy that is going to weaken as climate change becomes more reality.
So far as this native-born Texan is concerned, Texas should be expelled and a wall built around it.
TC, beg to differ, but for unrelated reasons. Well, sort of. Give the place back to the people it was stolen from. Not talking Mexico, but indigenous and mixta people, spanish speaking or not. Do the thing we did with other illegally acquired territories and write a constitution that requires the legislature be composed of representatives descended from the original inhabitants. Ditto administrative branch. Anglos have to apply for citizenship. The wall would be at the original northern border, to keep the likes of the Alamo folks out of Texas. Texans them selves get to decide whether to be an independent nation or rejoin Mexico.
Yeah, I'm letting my imagination run with this (as are you), but there's a point to be made here. We come up with the wrong solutions all the time and don't have the sense to think them through before acting on them. The Alamo was a travesty and so is Texas statehood. We just keep doing stuff like this and then wonder what went wrong. (Iraq? Afghanistan? Philippines? Hawaii? The whole country west of the Appalachians? etc.
Also east of the Appalachians, except for Pennsylvania, where my Quaker ancestors were the only ones who dealt honestly with the Native Americans about obtaining their original colony.
You make very valid points.
Thanks, TC. Quibble with you on one point: Penn himself did deal with indigenous within the context of paying them for land- and then bragged to buddies about the deals he got because of their naivete about how white people regarded land.
I'm descended from Quakers too, and it was Quakers who set up the infamous Carlysle Indian School. I'm still a sort-of-practicing Quaker, but am often startled by the remnants of bigotry that some Quakers still harbor. Why I am currently unaffiliated with a meeting. Also, I find myself increasingly drawn back to the traditional spiritual beliefs of my indigenous ancestors and am learning from their descendants. They are beliefs I feel at home with. The framework still exists in spite of the loss of so much of the detail.
Hey, I live in FL & I periodically check to make sure we are part of the Union. Since my “little feet” governor has been running for Biden’s job he’s not been ripping through our institutions & freedoms with complete abandon. However, I’m sure that once he does NOT get the GOP nominee he’s going to be back to stomp on our healthcare, ban more books, crush our educational system & hire more police officers from other states with overly aggressive behaviors. And he will continue to take the credit for any infrastructure improvements as a result of Biden’s work. As bad as it is here, TX is on steroids. They govern like they’re raging on roids. I have a feeling it’s going to get worse until some of these court cases are completed & people go to jail!
It’s more than a feeling with every day a new right wing action defies our reality and contributes to our dystopian nightmare.
They only have a strong economy because of the environmental damage they do. And the fact that FEMA shows up whenever they have another climate driven disaster. Or a chemical plant blows up.
Florida also could be said to have a strong economy, but not if it’s under water.
Well said. I totally agree. Interesting that Griffin wasn't the party who fired him yet she's being sigled out for drawing attention to what Johnson did. The employer, though, was the final decisionmaker as to whether Johnson should be fired for something that was not at the work site and had nothing to do with his employment. Despite that, it appears that Johnson has no problem with his employer making the actual decision to terminate his employment. He reserves his wrath, instead, for the messenger.
On a somewhat different note, that young person is stunning in that dress. Someone needed to say it.
I would like to see more of the shoe please!
YES!! Oh my just fabulous!
Yes and wow!
Ya maybe he would get credited with something. Never thought about that.
Gawd, I’m glad I wasn’t the only one thinking this.
Thank you for saying it. I had the same thought- absolutely fabulous! What a charming couple they made. Too bad some fink with an attitude thought he had the right to spoil it for them. I hope Griffin's posting the video helped.
I have always loved Kathy Griffin. (No relation ) and was incensed at her losses when the severed head issue came about.
As a point of law, would a person living in Tennessee and witnessing the man’s actions toward the teen and then calling his employer causing an adverse job action be subject to the same exposure?
Witnessing the behavior and reporting a factual account to the company causing job loss.
How is that actionable?
The Tennessee resident could be sued in Tennessee. Whether he would be found liable is a whole separate question.
My grandfather always said "You can sue anyone for anything. Whether you can WIN or not is another matter. I could sue you because your last name caused me emotional distress. Wouldn't go far. I was a lawyer for a surety company. I got sued for a million dollars (pro se) by a guy because I wrote to his mother reminding her that she was an indemnitor on his bond. Freaked my daughter out, but I wasn't worried. A fellow attorney in my office just got it dismissed because writing that letter wasn't indeed actionable.
Many states have what are called Anti-Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation [Anti-SLAPP) for those folks that are merely participating public policy matters.
BONUS: I recovered all attorney fees & costs incurred defending the nuisance suits for many clients.
Hoping that it is not actionable, and that Kathy Griffin can escape Mr Johnson's morass by motion rather than having to sit in front of a Tennessee jury.
Good points. But doesn’t go to Joyce’s suggestion that there is something over the top about jurisdiction in Tennessee. As I mention below, I don’t see it.
Interesting. I don’t know I just don’t have need to snitch on others I have my own problems and life to lead. So it’s foreign matter. I do some stand up and the women I talk about are never mentioned by name. I don’t kiss and tell. By name.
Confederate traitors from Tennessee, aka Republicans, need smacking.
What is amazing is that it all started on another platform by other people and all Kathy Griffin did was retweet something posted somewhere else first & then mention where he worked. She Did Not Start this posting, and if intention is all you need, everyone is in jeopardy with this kind of attempt to punish. Punish : 1) a woman, 2)a woman that’s liberal and from ohhh that scary California 3) this guy who behaved like a turd to a couple of kids and his bosses caught wind of it. 4) His bosses fired him for his disgusting behavior.
Everyone for years Has Known that stuff on the internet and Social Media IS and has been a reason Your Boss and Your Company Can Fire You.
A clown that behaves like this Is Responsible for his company seeing that - not anyone else.
He acted like an ass, he hit someone who probably was a minor holding a phone AND it’s “someone else’s” fault...
yeah-NO.
Do we even know if the company saw the original post on the 1st platform - or just how they caught wind of his actions? The key being: HIS Actions.
So if Griffin had just Tweeted the information and video without urging her followers to pressure the employer to fire the guy, there would be no basis for "intent." Point taken. It's okay to mock someone and spread information of their observable failings but NOT to urge others to act against the person. That principle should apply to the Urger-in-Chief on January 6, 2021.
I didn't see the information about urging her followers to take action against Mr Johnson. If that happened, then Ms Griffin may very well have to face a Tennessee jury. Joyce Vance, please help us keep tabs on how your friend fares in this matter. Thank you.
Well, if Griffin can be sued for tweeting something that caused Johnson to lose his job, Trump, Guiliani, etc. should be able to be sued for doxing and causing trouble for any number of people.
They were sued. They lost because they told lies, not truth.
It seems to me that Mr. Johnson publically engaged in hate speech toward a teen who was simply trying to have fun and express himself. Ms. Griffin was courageous to have called him out. He lost his job because of his own actions.
He lost his job for being an asshole.
I met Judge Sutton about 10 years ago, when he was, I think, chair of the Advisory Committee on the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure (a committee whose work is even more exciting than it sounds). He was a very intelligent and pleasant man. But the Sixth Circuit has become a real stickler and a haven for some nutty theories, especially when they protect the rights of the rich and skewer ordinary folks. This case sounds in line with that. It certainly should not be a precedent for changing the law so far as where suits can be filed.
Sutton has authored some rather poorly received opinions upholding TN and KY legislation directed toward trans children and
(didn't finish, can't edit) their medically supervised treatments. He has a rather quixotic view toward the law, IMHO.
Another politicians' fellator in a black robe, like too many of them.
TC ... Gotta share some Bro. Dern it. You get all the red checks.
If this is the case, why aren't people suing mango Mussolini for all the inflammatory comment he is making that threaten people's safety.
Well, um, they are.
IMHO, this entire suit is laughable and should not even be considered by the courts. WHAT is this country coming to, when nobody can give their opinion without being sued by some snowflake?
I’m not that sure. She purposely went after him and he lost his job. Not to say he is t an asshole. (Sorry my Italian, lol.)
Sad that this is happening but consistent with what is happening nationally with legislators like Johnson, Gaetz, etc etc who continue to do the bidding of a corrupt, lying former president while pretending they have the moral high ground. The rule of law is under siege by the zealot minority. We all need to use our voices and our votes to reclaim sanity.
I’m wondering whether the outcome, if against Griffin, could be a precedent for suing doxers.
I am wondering about the implications for people whose behavior is posted on social media and that results in a national public outcry it would seem whether an Ivy League university or any other private employer would want to know how much perceived or actual harm would ensue by continuing that employment. After all, most employers have codes of conduct.
What an informative article, Joyce. Thanks. It will be interesting to see how the court handles this, as I've seen many social media posts about obnoxious people & many, including myself, have reposted them hoping an employer sees their racists/homophobic/whatever employee in action. Something to seriously think before reposting such posts.
I’m thinking that our judicial system has become a laughable mess. When I’ve sought legal help in the past I have been discouraged, every time, from pursuing remedy because it’s expensive and I would likely not receive any remuneration. I’m neither rich nor interested in becoming rich, but comfortable is not an unreasonable expectation. However, our system is not reasonable for any who don’t have deep pockets. Ergo, the rich get off and/or richer.
I am not trained in the law, but does anyone else see a similarity between this story and the problem a "whistleblower" faces upon revealing wrong-doing by an employer? There is a tendency to want to blame the messenger, instead of focusing on the alleged malfeasance.