Trump is a lunatic. The fact the Justice Department hasn’t thrown him behind bars is about as terrifying as Trump himself. It makes us all feel helpless and powerless before what once was a lawful democracy, with problems, of course, but now spinning out of control. Waco? Really? Thank you for connecting the dots.
Kate, I agree with you that the Justice Dept. not throwing Trump behind bars IS, indeed, terrifying. And it does give us a feeling of helplessness and powerlessness. We have to remember though, that we are not powerless or helpless. There is much we can still do, voting, signing up people to vote, write letters to voters, and getting involved in our local politics, school boards, etc.
I ask you to reconsider the negative narrative about Garland. He's the one who got McVeigh (who mass murdered my federal coworkers) and he's the one that's overseeing the prosecutions. And ensuring we have Jack Smith. And forcing the people hiding behind privileges to testify.
That kind of commentary is exactly like the "kill Fauci" comments Trump promotes. Or the Lock her up stuff the GOP promoted for Hillary.
Do you really want to have to admit you are acting just like them, or do you want to be supportive of justice being done?
Christ on a bike people, I grew up in a family not unlike Trump's! There was money. There was bribery of government officials. There was intrafamilial abuse and theft of inheritance, frequently by lawsuit. It was considered "funny" to have a subpoena served on your birthday. There was murder. Hey, my family was apparently a potential Unabomber target.
I know first hand from surviving all that (some of my family did NOT) that lawsuits take forever (10 years and more) and would like to point out that Garland is moving at rocket speed compared to the average (think the 24 hour response time last week).
If you can't be on the side of the people who are helping you get justice, you are not helping.
I agree completely. This is the biggest and farthest-reaching investigation by the Justice Dept. in US history. The people involved (that we know of) number in the hundreds, even the thousands. If you want all these people prosecuted, you can't be nagging and complaining that it isn't happening to your liking. We haven't the knowledge or expertise to criticize Jack Smith. He's a hero in every sense of the word.
Mar 25, 2023·edited Mar 25, 2023Liked by Joyce Vance
Kate, While I particularly appreciated how Joanna (as part of this thread) amplified how our engagement, our energy, our caring, our work not only can produce powerful results, but also can be empowering, I write to expound upon another matter of personal urgency, at least to me.
To start, I feel as strongly as you that the timeline to hold Trump accountable was before he was allowed to try and take over the government again. Still, though not to be understood as giving Garland a pass, I would note there would have been no circumscribed timeline had Senate Republicans done their job and convicted Trump. I raise this point because Senate Democrats, unlike Senate Republicans, are facing a challenging electoral map in 2024. Accordingly, I would view it as a missed opportunity were Democrats not to seize upon Senate Republican’s failure to convict, deciding instead, paraphrasing McConnell, to defer to the criminal justice system to hold Trump and his coterie criminally accountable.
I really appreciate the smart, respectful, conversation that is going on here. Wanted to add an additional data point. In some ways, it will be impossible to Judge Merrick Garland's handling of the situation without the benefit of hindsight, because we do not know just how far he will get during his time in office. As you all know, I am concerned about the loss of that first year, when I think investigation into Trump should have been pressed. There may be circumstances that we don't yet know about. It is difficult to figure out how to balance confidence in a proven public servant with concerned that Trump has always managed to successfully out run the system. But ultimately, I am reminded that his voters we do have power, and even as Republicans have made it more difficult to vote, we are capable of finding ways to challenge that. Perhaps it will even make people more vigilant about exercising the right to vote.
Very good points. And the facts will lead us ultimately to accountability. Garland has as you said proven himself and we do not know what went on behind the scenes that tumultuous first year of Biden’s presidency. Why would we give up now? We’re all in a race to save democracy. We don’t know where the finish line is. Tfg and his enablers are trying to wear us down. We keep going but we will inevitably get there.
Professor Vance, Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Admittedly, based on my understanding that by late Spring, 2021 a blueprint for all of the criminal offenses that might have been committed by Trump and by those at the top had already been laid out by a number of scholars and former prosecutors, I pressed hard for DOJ, had it not already done so, to start holding Trump and his Jan 6th command structure accountable, at least to the point of being subject to full-blown criminal investigation. The key point was that DOJ didn’t need to decide in advance whether all the downsides of an indictment should or should not prevent us from indicting. That would be for a later date. But, given there was sufficient factual predication to open up a criminal investigation, in my mind, the investigation had to go full speed ahead, partially because the mind of the country, back in 21, needed to be focused on those at the top who were being investigated for criminal activity and maybe informed they were possible targets. Moreover, I had noted it wouldn’t as easy to stonewall a grand jury as it was to stonewall a congressional committee.
Regarding our power as voters, I understand the Freedom to Vote Act will be reintroduced in the 118th Congress. I think it imperative that the public be aware that this modest legislative package merely would ensure that all eligible votes were cast, counted correctly, and certified without interference and without their being diluted through partisan gerrymandering. Additionally, while not as aggressively as its predecessor H.R.1 For the People, the legislation also would curb the influence of big moneyed special interests.
Though I don’t imagine this legislative package will advance through both chambers and become law, contrary to its first pass in Jan. 2022, I do expect Biden and Democratic leadership to call out both Republicans who oppose the legislation plus Senate Democrats who support the legislation, but who vote with Senate Republicans to oppose modest filibuster reform to allow the legislation to move to the floor for debate and an up or down majority vote.
Having spoken my piece, I thank you once again for your thoughtful and detailed reply to our thread’s conversations.
"I would note there would have been no circumscribed timeline had Senate Republicans done their job and convicted Trump." That right there, Barbara Jo, if we're going to get to the likely source of tfg's advance beyond the 2020 presidential election. Am I stating the obvious when I say that all the Republicans who are keeping silent are betting on a 2024 win where they will then have a place at the "table" when he takes over?
Lynell, As I understand, Republicans mainly are keeping silent because they’re afraid of Trump voters, the 35%, give or take, segment of the population that will stay with Trump through virtually anything because he has identified and given voice to their resentments. Conceivably, they also could be afraid of Trump himself—of the chaos he could create either with a third party candidacy or just by attacking the GOP nominee and the whole nominations process as corrupt.
Lynell, I would note that your explanation, in my view, relates particularly to House Freedom Caucus extremists, who, this past January, were extracting concession after concession from Kevin McCarthy, as he desperately attempted to get enough votes to become Speaker.
The thing I continually come back to is the small majority which the R's hold the house. I'm not very knowledgeable about politics, but certainly there must be at least 5 R's that could be convinced to vote with D's and stop all this nonsense. Why has it become more important to get re-elected than to save the country?
These awful people bet that after the revolution, they will be esteemed. An effective dictatorship liquidates these cadres immediately. There is no “winners’ club” in revolution.
We have all been waiting to see what the DOJ will do and it is like standing in line to get into a bathroom it hurts so bad. But I have complete trust that a system that takes time and care for a maniac like Trump will take the same time and care to get it right for any other defendant who comes under their microscope. Doing it right is more important to me than doing it fast. Trump will cause some harm before he goes down but he is going down.
Prosecutors are going about the business of bringing these criminals to justice while adhering to the rule of law. If the orange traitor is "thrown behind bars" without the benefit of a thorough investigation and then, a fair trial, we would be no better than the criminals themselves.
Agree, and he's been allowed to keep on criming for YEARS! He continues to behave like a wrecking ball while the courts go drip, drip, drip. Forgive me, but I'm hoping that a Big Mac attack will take care of the whole matter. With all due respect, registering new voters is paramount, but not soon enough!
LOL I've been wishing for Trump's demise for years, and I feel no guilt about that. It's because he won't just go away. keep his big fat piehole shut and play golf.
Voting is crucial, but what matters just as much is to pay attention to the state and local races because that's where the aspiring extremists are winning races. I'm still feeling the relief of NY's governor Kathy Hochul beating the fanatical Trump Republican, Lee Zeldin last November. I think he needs to be watched, along with the "conservative" congresswoman, Claudia Tenney. And every day I thank the voters for my wonderful congressman, Joe Morelle!
I interviewed Henry Ruth when he was in private practice. As I’m sure you know, Henry was involved in investigating Waco and the MOVE bombing in Philly. My friend Ron Noble was involved in the final investigation of WACO. I am thoroughly horrified that Trump is holding a rally there. It’s equivalent, IMO, to “be there, will be wild.”
I come at Waco from the point that, as a Crisis Negotiator, I have gotten to listen to (and talk with) the agents who engaged in negotiations with Koresh. To hear that you were a young prosecutor during that time is intriguing to me.
It is from these agents that the axiom "you cannot reason with unreasonable people" came about, as well as the truth that "you cannot negotiate with terrorists" was established.
President Bush lives not far from there in Crawford Tx. Isn’t time that some of these OG GOPers make a statement to the press denouncing Trump’s vile rhetoric?
I hope there is a counter protest there in WACO.
Trumps arrest should of happened long ago, along with his accomplices and those who supported the insurrection.
I would too, because to be silent in times likes these is to acquiesce to the bullying and intimidation. These are authoritarians and Trump is purporting violence. It’s a Fascist Life under any of these insurrectionist politicians, if not Totalitarian. A healthy democracy has more than one party. But this is not what we have right now. The wheels of justice are turning way to slow to catch this wildfire. It is only more reason we need to see more GOPers break away from Trump and Desantis. While I don’t agree with the neoconservatism that has brought on the economic crisis and hurt the poor and middle class. it has also caused the circumstances that allowed authoritarian actors to rise. Denouncing this movement is what is needed from democrats and GOPers.
Yeah I never realized how 🤔 much Biden was one of his 1st supporters in DC when Carter was even running for President.
Jimmy got done dirty by Reagan's campaign team going to middle east governments and telling them to tell the Iranian government to delay release of the American hostages until after Reagan's in office as they could get a better deal which is a major factor in Carter's defeat.
The ex Lt gov under ex Gov Connolly has come forward with the truth since Jimmy is dying.
Wondering 🤔 how much that played into Reagan's Iran Contra scandal a few years later?
And let's not forget "St. Ronnie" launching his campaign where civil rights workers were brutally murdered in Mississippi. The dog whistles go back a long way.
I’m not sure a counter-protest would be at all wise for another reason The armed MAGAts wouldn’t care if anyone got hurt and tfg would proclaim that any resulting violence would be due to antifa and “radical, far-left, USA-hating Democrats.” The resulting media coverage would be all about the activities of the protesters and not the shocking behavior of tfg.
It should not be physically dangerous but it is becoming so, to peacefully protest and give light to issues and to raise the voices of those impacted by poor and unjust decisions.
The legal system and society enabled and tolerated the criminal actions of Trump and his father for decades. As Tevye says, "When you're rich, they think you really know." And when they even think you're rich, they give you the benefit of the doubt for as long as they can.
For decades the FBI and others in government denied the threat of white supremacist Christian nationalists, many of whom have been generously funded by wealthy right-wing extremists.
Now we have a perfect storm of greed, religious fanaticism, ignorance, gullibility, and bigotry. The rest of us need to be vigilant, align with pro-democracy folks and leaders in our communities, and defend our democracy to stop MAGA now.
I saw David Koresh a few times here in Los Angeles, when he was out here playing his alternative identity as a "rock god." In my business, if you're going to survive, you learn to spot the dangerous psychopaths, the morons who think they're geniuses, the ones whose neverwillbe status makes them dangerous when they manipulate the other losers to think they have a chance to grab the brass ring.
Koresh and Trump are cut from the same cloth. Dangerous morons who think they're geniuses. Koresh got treated as the rabid dog he was. That's what Trump needs.
Thanks for that assessment of Koresh. I hadn't realized that he fancied himself as a musician (or "rock god" as you put it) but it fits what I learned of him in some of the negotiator training that I've attended.
Shades of Charles Manson who thought of himself as a musician (he did have some talent, but not like he thought). OTOH, Koresh was at Waco and went down with his followers; Trump is more like Manson, who didn't actually kill anyone himself but encouraged his followers to do his bidding.
I’m devastated by the dystopian times we live in now. You remind us of our past challenges.
And yet despite the dangerous overwhelming mess of it - I am determined to hold hope in the rule of law, books, knowledge, science music friendships and especially the people who care about our democracy.
I want to believe that empathy and civil discourse is still possible in this fractured America.
And reading this is genuinely helpful and still painful and difficult.
We face hateful attitudes and serious threats against women. minority groups and hateful damaging threats towards our wonderful diverse society.
We must face the reality of a criminally charged ex president who cannot admit he lost an election and caused an insurrection. He continues to rage against his enemies and attempt to avoid the consequences of his many of destructive attacks on Americans.
What sickness has overtaken our nation? I don't understand the delay in arresting or indicting this awful man. But more than that, the ugly militancy of the men and a few women who play this deadly baiting game continues to astound me.
To ask what are they thinking is futile, because they are not thinking. They are obsessed with imagined wrongs and delusions of grandeur. The whole lot of them can be found in the DSM of mental disorders and illnesses.
Quite seriously, if the cultists, nationalists, fascists and whoever else in this cabal continue to amass and organize, there will be hell to pay. It's almost like a sci-fi movie, so bizarre and frightening they've all become.
To say nothing of daily shootings and suicides, especially among our young people. I despair.
Our attachment to the rule of law and our societal tendency to fairness to the individual really works against us when it comes to psychopaths, be they David Karesh or Donald Trump. They keep us in this together.
Thanks Joyce, that was indeed terrifying. He plays the system well, doesn't he? It IS hard to know what to do now we've let him get so far out of line. Threatening a DA he should have been pick up immediately... but!
Eventually our government is going to have to take on him and this uprising and deal with what happens. There still is a right answer... doing what's right may well start in Waco.
Trump is a user. If he can use his followers to harm his opponents, he will do so out in the open with no care about consequences. Chaos is his friend. I was not surprised that his first rally is in Waco. His goal: move the trial date further into the future.
“That’s just Donald Trump. He’s always threatening violence.” This was a news commentator’s response tonight after seeing Trump’s threat against the DA, the bat photo. This is what happens when people become complacent. Trump can fool them into believing he’s just a nice guy with a few faults. When instead if that news guy and Trump’s followers understood evil they would fear him. We should all be afraid. And hope that nobody shows up at Waco.
Are the threats (death and destruction; baseball bat) that Donald Trump made protected by the free speech clause? I don't understand why he is not at least interrogated about his words and the intentions they suggest 🤔. Especially in light of the history of his activities thus far.
So relieved to know there are others that see the insanity of MAGA and t-rump and the possible destruction of our republic. Thank you for helping me keep sane and connected to other likeminded people! I am hopeful.
Thank you for connecting these issues so well. I remember quite well the stand off in Waco and its aftermath. David Koresh started out as a Seventh Day Adventist, but branched off from the main teachings of that church to start his little cult. The anniversary of what happened in Waco should really fit nicely into what TFG has been doing. That is pretend to be spiritual while stoking others to violence. His day of reckoning is fast approaching. Buckle up.........
He was a Seventh Day Adventist??? I always just assumed he grew up either Pentecostal or FLDS (polygamist offshoot of the Latter Day Saints aka Mormons).
Chilling...but not unexpected. Once again I pray that our Judicial and Law Enforcement institutions, prepare carefully and with acting with dignity, when possible, in order to bring this dangerous former president, to answer for his many crimes.
"That risk will continue as long as Trump remains on the public stage. It’s more important than ever that he be held accountable, both by the criminal justice system and by the voting public." Really?
It was a mistake not to Indict Trump on the NY charges as soon as he left the White House..
It was a mistake to allow so much time to fly by with the AG failing to Indict on the numerous federal charges that are still pending…In fact, I heard Neal Katyal (Former Deputy Solicitor General of the United States) say on TV flat out when Jack Smith was appointed, that it was a wholly unnecessary step..that Trump was fully chargeable, indictable and the evidence was overwhelming then to do it..
In addition, I’ve heard or read too many various and sundry Legal Eagles of your elk say the very same thing..However, I’m not sure if I ever heard you say it..
And it will be a mistake to allow Trump to take to any more stages period! He represents a clear and present danger to the national security of The United States..
The F.B.I., U.S. Marshals Service, or whoever else is needed should saddle up with a warrant and take him into custody tomorrow before he places one foot into any public space anywhere..He needs to be removed from the equation one way or another, immediately..
For my money, considering the depth of the damage and death caused by this creatine, the country should have woken up on a Monday morning a very long time ago, hearing about a mugging gone bad..
Another excellent report, Joyce. Thank you for making even this shallow and craven bit of grandstanding interesting and every bit as much of a cynical ploy as we have come to expect from Trump.
Trump is a lunatic. The fact the Justice Department hasn’t thrown him behind bars is about as terrifying as Trump himself. It makes us all feel helpless and powerless before what once was a lawful democracy, with problems, of course, but now spinning out of control. Waco? Really? Thank you for connecting the dots.
Kate, I agree with you that the Justice Dept. not throwing Trump behind bars IS, indeed, terrifying. And it does give us a feeling of helplessness and powerlessness. We have to remember though, that we are not powerless or helpless. There is much we can still do, voting, signing up people to vote, write letters to voters, and getting involved in our local politics, school boards, etc.
I ask you to reconsider the negative narrative about Garland. He's the one who got McVeigh (who mass murdered my federal coworkers) and he's the one that's overseeing the prosecutions. And ensuring we have Jack Smith. And forcing the people hiding behind privileges to testify.
That kind of commentary is exactly like the "kill Fauci" comments Trump promotes. Or the Lock her up stuff the GOP promoted for Hillary.
Do you really want to have to admit you are acting just like them, or do you want to be supportive of justice being done?
Christ on a bike people, I grew up in a family not unlike Trump's! There was money. There was bribery of government officials. There was intrafamilial abuse and theft of inheritance, frequently by lawsuit. It was considered "funny" to have a subpoena served on your birthday. There was murder. Hey, my family was apparently a potential Unabomber target.
I know first hand from surviving all that (some of my family did NOT) that lawsuits take forever (10 years and more) and would like to point out that Garland is moving at rocket speed compared to the average (think the 24 hour response time last week).
If you can't be on the side of the people who are helping you get justice, you are not helping.
I agree completely. This is the biggest and farthest-reaching investigation by the Justice Dept. in US history. The people involved (that we know of) number in the hundreds, even the thousands. If you want all these people prosecuted, you can't be nagging and complaining that it isn't happening to your liking. We haven't the knowledge or expertise to criticize Jack Smith. He's a hero in every sense of the word.
Hear Hear, Kathy...Every. Single. Word.
Well said, Kathy!
Kate, While I particularly appreciated how Joanna (as part of this thread) amplified how our engagement, our energy, our caring, our work not only can produce powerful results, but also can be empowering, I write to expound upon another matter of personal urgency, at least to me.
To start, I feel as strongly as you that the timeline to hold Trump accountable was before he was allowed to try and take over the government again. Still, though not to be understood as giving Garland a pass, I would note there would have been no circumscribed timeline had Senate Republicans done their job and convicted Trump. I raise this point because Senate Democrats, unlike Senate Republicans, are facing a challenging electoral map in 2024. Accordingly, I would view it as a missed opportunity were Democrats not to seize upon Senate Republican’s failure to convict, deciding instead, paraphrasing McConnell, to defer to the criminal justice system to hold Trump and his coterie criminally accountable.
I really appreciate the smart, respectful, conversation that is going on here. Wanted to add an additional data point. In some ways, it will be impossible to Judge Merrick Garland's handling of the situation without the benefit of hindsight, because we do not know just how far he will get during his time in office. As you all know, I am concerned about the loss of that first year, when I think investigation into Trump should have been pressed. There may be circumstances that we don't yet know about. It is difficult to figure out how to balance confidence in a proven public servant with concerned that Trump has always managed to successfully out run the system. But ultimately, I am reminded that his voters we do have power, and even as Republicans have made it more difficult to vote, we are capable of finding ways to challenge that. Perhaps it will even make people more vigilant about exercising the right to vote.
Very good points. And the facts will lead us ultimately to accountability. Garland has as you said proven himself and we do not know what went on behind the scenes that tumultuous first year of Biden’s presidency. Why would we give up now? We’re all in a race to save democracy. We don’t know where the finish line is. Tfg and his enablers are trying to wear us down. We keep going but we will inevitably get there.
Professor Vance, Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Admittedly, based on my understanding that by late Spring, 2021 a blueprint for all of the criminal offenses that might have been committed by Trump and by those at the top had already been laid out by a number of scholars and former prosecutors, I pressed hard for DOJ, had it not already done so, to start holding Trump and his Jan 6th command structure accountable, at least to the point of being subject to full-blown criminal investigation. The key point was that DOJ didn’t need to decide in advance whether all the downsides of an indictment should or should not prevent us from indicting. That would be for a later date. But, given there was sufficient factual predication to open up a criminal investigation, in my mind, the investigation had to go full speed ahead, partially because the mind of the country, back in 21, needed to be focused on those at the top who were being investigated for criminal activity and maybe informed they were possible targets. Moreover, I had noted it wouldn’t as easy to stonewall a grand jury as it was to stonewall a congressional committee.
Regarding our power as voters, I understand the Freedom to Vote Act will be reintroduced in the 118th Congress. I think it imperative that the public be aware that this modest legislative package merely would ensure that all eligible votes were cast, counted correctly, and certified without interference and without their being diluted through partisan gerrymandering. Additionally, while not as aggressively as its predecessor H.R.1 For the People, the legislation also would curb the influence of big moneyed special interests.
Though I don’t imagine this legislative package will advance through both chambers and become law, contrary to its first pass in Jan. 2022, I do expect Biden and Democratic leadership to call out both Republicans who oppose the legislation plus Senate Democrats who support the legislation, but who vote with Senate Republicans to oppose modest filibuster reform to allow the legislation to move to the floor for debate and an up or down majority vote.
Having spoken my piece, I thank you once again for your thoughtful and detailed reply to our thread’s conversations.
"I would note there would have been no circumscribed timeline had Senate Republicans done their job and convicted Trump." That right there, Barbara Jo, if we're going to get to the likely source of tfg's advance beyond the 2020 presidential election. Am I stating the obvious when I say that all the Republicans who are keeping silent are betting on a 2024 win where they will then have a place at the "table" when he takes over?
Lynell, As I understand, Republicans mainly are keeping silent because they’re afraid of Trump voters, the 35%, give or take, segment of the population that will stay with Trump through virtually anything because he has identified and given voice to their resentments. Conceivably, they also could be afraid of Trump himself—of the chaos he could create either with a third party candidacy or just by attacking the GOP nominee and the whole nominations process as corrupt.
Oh, yes, Barbara Jo. Sorry to have skipped over those points you make!
Lynell, I would note that your explanation, in my view, relates particularly to House Freedom Caucus extremists, who, this past January, were extracting concession after concession from Kevin McCarthy, as he desperately attempted to get enough votes to become Speaker.
The thing I continually come back to is the small majority which the R's hold the house. I'm not very knowledgeable about politics, but certainly there must be at least 5 R's that could be convinced to vote with D's and stop all this nonsense. Why has it become more important to get re-elected than to save the country?
Ah yes, the infamous Susan Collins moment "I believe he has learned his lesson". He sure did - he can get away with murder.
Murder? Perhaps. He will not get away with the rest of it though.
These awful people bet that after the revolution, they will be esteemed. An effective dictatorship liquidates these cadres immediately. There is no “winners’ club” in revolution.
We have all been waiting to see what the DOJ will do and it is like standing in line to get into a bathroom it hurts so bad. But I have complete trust that a system that takes time and care for a maniac like Trump will take the same time and care to get it right for any other defendant who comes under their microscope. Doing it right is more important to me than doing it fast. Trump will cause some harm before he goes down but he is going down.
Best analogy ever Karen!
Prosecutors are going about the business of bringing these criminals to justice while adhering to the rule of law. If the orange traitor is "thrown behind bars" without the benefit of a thorough investigation and then, a fair trial, we would be no better than the criminals themselves.
And you're right when you call him a lunatic.
He's not a lunatic. He's evil and knows exactly what he's doing.
Agree, and he's been allowed to keep on criming for YEARS! He continues to behave like a wrecking ball while the courts go drip, drip, drip. Forgive me, but I'm hoping that a Big Mac attack will take care of the whole matter. With all due respect, registering new voters is paramount, but not soon enough!
LOL I've been wishing for Trump's demise for years, and I feel no guilt about that. It's because he won't just go away. keep his big fat piehole shut and play golf.
Voting is crucial, but what matters just as much is to pay attention to the state and local races because that's where the aspiring extremists are winning races. I'm still feeling the relief of NY's governor Kathy Hochul beating the fanatical Trump Republican, Lee Zeldin last November. I think he needs to be watched, along with the "conservative" congresswoman, Claudia Tenney. And every day I thank the voters for my wonderful congressman, Joe Morelle!
Giving up is not an option.
Who is suggesting giving up?
Excellent summary and analysis. Thank you so much for keeping us informed and connected.
Thanks. I was a young prosecutor during Waco, so Trump's choice is really disturbing.
I interviewed Henry Ruth when he was in private practice. As I’m sure you know, Henry was involved in investigating Waco and the MOVE bombing in Philly. My friend Ron Noble was involved in the final investigation of WACO. I am thoroughly horrified that Trump is holding a rally there. It’s equivalent, IMO, to “be there, will be wild.”
This is a component in my education that is sorely lacking. Are there any books/articles on either Waco or MOVE that you can recommend?
I come at Waco from the point that, as a Crisis Negotiator, I have gotten to listen to (and talk with) the agents who engaged in negotiations with Koresh. To hear that you were a young prosecutor during that time is intriguing to me.
It is from these agents that the axiom "you cannot reason with unreasonable people" came about, as well as the truth that "you cannot negotiate with terrorists" was established.
Thanks Joyce for clarity.
President Bush lives not far from there in Crawford Tx. Isn’t time that some of these OG GOPers make a statement to the press denouncing Trump’s vile rhetoric?
I hope there is a counter protest there in WACO.
Trumps arrest should of happened long ago, along with his accomplices and those who supported the insurrection.
Would love ❤️ to see all the ex Presidents hold a press release denouncing Trump's seditious activities 😀 🤔
I would too, because to be silent in times likes these is to acquiesce to the bullying and intimidation. These are authoritarians and Trump is purporting violence. It’s a Fascist Life under any of these insurrectionist politicians, if not Totalitarian. A healthy democracy has more than one party. But this is not what we have right now. The wheels of justice are turning way to slow to catch this wildfire. It is only more reason we need to see more GOPers break away from Trump and Desantis. While I don’t agree with the neoconservatism that has brought on the economic crisis and hurt the poor and middle class. it has also caused the circumstances that allowed authoritarian actors to rise. Denouncing this movement is what is needed from democrats and GOPers.
Excellent analysis 👏 👍 👌 😀
Now America 🇺🇸 just has to make it happen 😉
Betcha Jimmy Carter has written a doozy of a funeral speech.
Yeah I never realized how 🤔 much Biden was one of his 1st supporters in DC when Carter was even running for President.
Jimmy got done dirty by Reagan's campaign team going to middle east governments and telling them to tell the Iranian government to delay release of the American hostages until after Reagan's in office as they could get a better deal which is a major factor in Carter's defeat.
The ex Lt gov under ex Gov Connolly has come forward with the truth since Jimmy is dying.
Wondering 🤔 how much that played into Reagan's Iran Contra scandal a few years later?
And let's not forget "St. Ronnie" launching his campaign where civil rights workers were brutally murdered in Mississippi. The dog whistles go back a long way.
Unfortunately that would merely confirm him to the goobers.
Despite all his efforts to date he is being shamed by most of us. He is counting on our fears. That is important to remember.
A counter-protest in Waco would be physically dangerous.
I’m not sure a counter-protest would be at all wise for another reason The armed MAGAts wouldn’t care if anyone got hurt and tfg would proclaim that any resulting violence would be due to antifa and “radical, far-left, USA-hating Democrats.” The resulting media coverage would be all about the activities of the protesters and not the shocking behavior of tfg.
Just like in the aftermath of George Floyd.
It should not be physically dangerous but it is becoming so, to peacefully protest and give light to issues and to raise the voices of those impacted by poor and unjust decisions.
That’s what I thought too
The legal system and society enabled and tolerated the criminal actions of Trump and his father for decades. As Tevye says, "When you're rich, they think you really know." And when they even think you're rich, they give you the benefit of the doubt for as long as they can.
For decades the FBI and others in government denied the threat of white supremacist Christian nationalists, many of whom have been generously funded by wealthy right-wing extremists.
Now we have a perfect storm of greed, religious fanaticism, ignorance, gullibility, and bigotry. The rest of us need to be vigilant, align with pro-democracy folks and leaders in our communities, and defend our democracy to stop MAGA now.
I saw David Koresh a few times here in Los Angeles, when he was out here playing his alternative identity as a "rock god." In my business, if you're going to survive, you learn to spot the dangerous psychopaths, the morons who think they're geniuses, the ones whose neverwillbe status makes them dangerous when they manipulate the other losers to think they have a chance to grab the brass ring.
Koresh and Trump are cut from the same cloth. Dangerous morons who think they're geniuses. Koresh got treated as the rabid dog he was. That's what Trump needs.
Thanks for that assessment of Koresh. I hadn't realized that he fancied himself as a musician (or "rock god" as you put it) but it fits what I learned of him in some of the negotiator training that I've attended.
Shades of Charles Manson who thought of himself as a musician (he did have some talent, but not like he thought). OTOH, Koresh was at Waco and went down with his followers; Trump is more like Manson, who didn't actually kill anyone himself but encouraged his followers to do his bidding.
Thank you Joyce.
I’m devastated by the dystopian times we live in now. You remind us of our past challenges.
And yet despite the dangerous overwhelming mess of it - I am determined to hold hope in the rule of law, books, knowledge, science music friendships and especially the people who care about our democracy.
I want to believe that empathy and civil discourse is still possible in this fractured America.
And reading this is genuinely helpful and still painful and difficult.
We face hateful attitudes and serious threats against women. minority groups and hateful damaging threats towards our wonderful diverse society.
We must face the reality of a criminally charged ex president who cannot admit he lost an election and caused an insurrection. He continues to rage against his enemies and attempt to avoid the consequences of his many of destructive attacks on Americans.
What sickness has overtaken our nation? I don't understand the delay in arresting or indicting this awful man. But more than that, the ugly militancy of the men and a few women who play this deadly baiting game continues to astound me.
To ask what are they thinking is futile, because they are not thinking. They are obsessed with imagined wrongs and delusions of grandeur. The whole lot of them can be found in the DSM of mental disorders and illnesses.
Quite seriously, if the cultists, nationalists, fascists and whoever else in this cabal continue to amass and organize, there will be hell to pay. It's almost like a sci-fi movie, so bizarre and frightening they've all become.
To say nothing of daily shootings and suicides, especially among our young people. I despair.
Diversion helps for a fresh perspective.
Our attachment to the rule of law and our societal tendency to fairness to the individual really works against us when it comes to psychopaths, be they David Karesh or Donald Trump. They keep us in this together.
The grifters are always out there to counter growth.
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Thanks Joyce, that was indeed terrifying. He plays the system well, doesn't he? It IS hard to know what to do now we've let him get so far out of line. Threatening a DA he should have been pick up immediately... but!
Eventually our government is going to have to take on him and this uprising and deal with what happens. There still is a right answer... doing what's right may well start in Waco.
When he is held accountable (not if) I believe it will happen quickly in some unforeseen way. Expect the unexpected.
Trump is a user. If he can use his followers to harm his opponents, he will do so out in the open with no care about consequences. Chaos is his friend. I was not surprised that his first rally is in Waco. His goal: move the trial date further into the future.
Samo samo... so tired of it. Let’s “come together right now.”
You and me
“That’s just Donald Trump. He’s always threatening violence.” This was a news commentator’s response tonight after seeing Trump’s threat against the DA, the bat photo. This is what happens when people become complacent. Trump can fool them into believing he’s just a nice guy with a few faults. When instead if that news guy and Trump’s followers understood evil they would fear him. We should all be afraid. And hope that nobody shows up at Waco.
Are the threats (death and destruction; baseball bat) that Donald Trump made protected by the free speech clause? I don't understand why he is not at least interrogated about his words and the intentions they suggest 🤔. Especially in light of the history of his activities thus far.
No. A threat of violence is NEVER protected speech. Even if you are a fpotus*
FPOTUS = Secret Service et al description of "former president of the United States"
fpotus = failure president of united states
So relieved to know there are others that see the insanity of MAGA and t-rump and the possible destruction of our republic. Thank you for helping me keep sane and connected to other likeminded people! I am hopeful.
Thank you for connecting these issues so well. I remember quite well the stand off in Waco and its aftermath. David Koresh started out as a Seventh Day Adventist, but branched off from the main teachings of that church to start his little cult. The anniversary of what happened in Waco should really fit nicely into what TFG has been doing. That is pretend to be spiritual while stoking others to violence. His day of reckoning is fast approaching. Buckle up.........
He was a Seventh Day Adventist??? I always just assumed he grew up either Pentecostal or FLDS (polygamist offshoot of the Latter Day Saints aka Mormons).
Unfortunately yes.
To this Atheist, a religious nut is a religious nut.
You want some real religious nuts, check out General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn.
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Chilling...but not unexpected. Once again I pray that our Judicial and Law Enforcement institutions, prepare carefully and with acting with dignity, when possible, in order to bring this dangerous former president, to answer for his many crimes.
"That risk will continue as long as Trump remains on the public stage. It’s more important than ever that he be held accountable, both by the criminal justice system and by the voting public." Really?
It was a mistake not to Indict Trump on the NY charges as soon as he left the White House..
It was a mistake to allow so much time to fly by with the AG failing to Indict on the numerous federal charges that are still pending…In fact, I heard Neal Katyal (Former Deputy Solicitor General of the United States) say on TV flat out when Jack Smith was appointed, that it was a wholly unnecessary step..that Trump was fully chargeable, indictable and the evidence was overwhelming then to do it..
In addition, I’ve heard or read too many various and sundry Legal Eagles of your elk say the very same thing..However, I’m not sure if I ever heard you say it..
And it will be a mistake to allow Trump to take to any more stages period! He represents a clear and present danger to the national security of The United States..
The F.B.I., U.S. Marshals Service, or whoever else is needed should saddle up with a warrant and take him into custody tomorrow before he places one foot into any public space anywhere..He needs to be removed from the equation one way or another, immediately..
For my money, considering the depth of the damage and death caused by this creatine, the country should have woken up on a Monday morning a very long time ago, hearing about a mugging gone bad..
Another excellent report, Joyce. Thank you for making even this shallow and craven bit of grandstanding interesting and every bit as much of a cynical ploy as we have come to expect from Trump.