Hi from Boca Raton! The height of hypocrisy, those who voted for him are not going crazy over the stock market- if this had been on Biden’s watch, they would be going crazy!!
And there was lots of voter suppression done in many states. Plus the bomb scares. Also, I have to say that the constant and neverending campaigning is exhausting, especially the hate and denigration. That last move of Musk buying the election was a shock that disabled many votes.
Sorry, that was his intention. I don’t think you get to be “disabled” by the “shock” of a famous asshole being an asshole when the consequences were completely foreseeable. They said they would do this and they are. Clutching your pearls when you’re safe in America and not in Gaza, being bombed and starved, is a luxury no one should have had. If you were too shocked to mark your ballot and drop it in the mail, then you owe me and the rest of us who registered voters and marched and campaigned against this to pick yourself up and join the opposition. Just sayin’…
That was a bit harsh. I'm saying that, despite all the donations people made, especially those who aren't rich and have money to share and who might have worked hard to support the election process, Musk bought the election in a moment -- arrogantly making the case against Citizens United. Those who didn't vote might not have included his actions among their reasons for not voting, but they certainly weren't clutching their pearls and probably not enjoying any luxury -- maybe they weren't exhausted or confused or demoralized -- people have varying limits.... But bomb scares and voter suppression laws definitely played a part.
Since voter is an ongoing horror that is projected to get even worse, and I don’t remember the bomb scares, but I’m sure there were some, I wasn’t disagreeing with either of those ideas. But those were people who were actually physically prevented from voting. We are all under siege, and have been, I think, since 2015. I think many of us knew that the Hoover Institute and it’s various allies were very very busy between 2020 and 2023. Trump never back down off the big lie, even though he knew it was a lie. I don’t consider myself, extraordinarily courageous, but yes, given the very narrow margin by which Trump won, I am not in the mood to forgive anyone who could have voted against him and done their share to stay off this order. It is harsh, but it’s just my opinion, and I fully understand that there are those who disagree. I’m not usually judgmental, and that’s the part of my stance that I am uncomfortable with. I’m a community mental health, nurse, and the county I drive my clients through was full of Trump-Vance signs in front of large houses. Those weren’t nearly as bad though, as the ones that said, “Don’t blame me, I voted for Trump.” Those were posted while the economy was booming, the infrastructure was being rebuilt, and America was behaving like an ally towards her allies. So, yeah, my soft side has taken a backseat, at least for the moment.
You are both just ignoring the statistical facts. I don't doubt that there were some people deterred by the various political tactics but the FACT is that Trump received virtually the same number of votes in 2024 as in 2020 while Harris received 7 MILLION fewer votes in 2024 than Biden did in 2020. There is just no universe in which THAT kind of disparity could be factually accounted for sure to some kind of political pressure without concrete evidence of actual targeting. And so far there is no such evidence.
That is coupled with the fact that the various polls show that far more people were turned off because of (a) Harris' weak presentation on the campaign trail, (b) her association with Biden's actively pro Israel positions and (c) the sad bias shown against her because of her gender and racial identities.
I am not arguing that there weren't a combination of factors for the loss but given how close the election was both via the popular vote AND the electoral college vote, it is really difficult IMHO to pin the loss on right wing electoral tactics when the facts suggest that a HUGE number of 2020 Biden voters simply decided to stay home.
Unfortunately given our historical protection of voter identity in elections there is no way to categorically PROVE any of the various theories (assuming such exists) as the reason Harris lost but I find it both frustrating and a waste of time to regurgitate these arguments over and over when there is no way to prove any of it. Elections are intended to be momentary events and we should then move on with the arduous task of figuring out how to move forward rather than to waste time hand wringing and moaning about the unfairness of it all.
I was disgusted by the Trump camp's absurd and distasteful lack of acceptance over their loss in 2020 and I am sadly just as disgusted by our sides refusal to accept the verdict in 2024.
YOU, Ms Joyce, are fantastic. I do like reading your newsletter, though many prefer video. Just always remember that many sub-pop readers (low tech users [seniors, those without good internet, varied ability folks etc.] may not do so well with video. Being able to do both would be the best of all worlds.
Daniel, I respect you for your tenacity but I also find it gets more absurd every day. There is no remedy for the electoral catastrophe we Democrats brought on ourselves in 2024. Impeachment will fail in the House because it requires a majority of Reps to impeach and the GOP is the majority there If only by a few votes.
And even if impeachment did win in the House, it requires 2/3 of the Senate to oust an impeached officer and last I looked, Democrats don't have even a slim majority there either let alone a 2/3 majority.
Futile gestures are wasted energy, IMHO. We used to use a crude expression for this, "pissing into the wind".
We should be devoting our attention to the 2026 elections, preserving our right to vote again and doing what we can to blunt the effects of this outrageous administration. Lawsuits are helping but impeachment is pissing into the wind.
What about the special elections coming up? And the important State Supreme Court elections? Those are supposedly winnable given the tide of regret and horror....
The ones I find valuable are the ones that have the transcript below. Andrew Weissman does this and it is great. I do better at reading than just listening.
Totally agree, as one who suffers with hearing probs...only podcasts or vids worth my time are those with accompanying transcripts. Even better are vids with real-time subtitles on YouTube!
One of the things I have not heard discussed is the possibility that crashing the economy is deliberate and will allow for everything to be privatized.
Hi, Joyce! Heartfelt thanks for sharing this. I find these one-on-one conversations to be even more enlightening than just listening to one person's thoughts, and definitely better than a group of 4 or more people (which never goes deep enough to be meaningful). So I welcome more of these! Ruth Ben Ghiat does a weekly chat with Anand Giridharadas, and I'd love it if you could do the same with Jen Rubin or Norm from the Contrarian. Stay strong, stay safe, and stay sane...and bless you for all you do. :)
Hello from Canada, Ontario in fact, where Doug Ford who has been emulating Trump the whole time is now saying oh no never Trump. But it's the same "strong man" bs.
I've been reading and listening to a lot of Anne Applebaum, including Democracy Inc, and her insights are incredible and she lays things out incredibly well.
Trump's just here to put as much money as possible in his pockets, he doesn't actually care about anything else. He's here to isolate the US from its longtime allies, crash the stock market, and turn the country into a kleptpcracy.
I am a big (lawyer) fan of yours. You asked for reactions to the videos idea, and mine is that I like the critical analysis that you have been providing in your columns, where you've had a chance to think about and research what you are going to say before you write it out. Like many others, I no longer watch MSNBC or anything like that. I'm really not terrible interested in the outrage du jour. I want long range critical analysis on this insane national nightmare that we are having, and I think you are very good at that kind of thing, like Heather Cox Richardson, Tim Snyder, Anne Applebaum and a few others. The rest is all overload for me. I just can't take it any more.
First a little background: When I was commissioned as a U.S. Army Officer, I took an oath obligating me to “...preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic", but not to blindly obey all orders. It was very clear that I was obligated to follow lawful orders, but I had a moral and legal duty to disobey unlawful ones. Every military officer swears a similar oath upon commissioning. Any soldier must follow lawful orders and disobey unlawful ones.
It is a valid defense that an accused soldier was acting pursuant to orders unless that soldier knew the order to be unlawful or a person of ordinary sense and understanding would have known the order to be unlawful. The obligation to obey the orders of superiors does not include orders that are palpably illegal.
My questions: Can this be similarly applied to political appointees? If a political appointee swears such an oath, to support and defend the Constitution, are they also expected to obey lawful orders and disobey palpably illegal orders? In the current Administration, even though the SJC has ruled that the President cannot be prosecuted for illegal acts committed within the scope of official duties, does that immunity extend to his subordinates? I assume it does not. So, are political appointees obligated to obey lawful orders and to disobey palpably unlawful orders? If so, are those appointees exposed to prosecution for failure to adhere to their sworn oath and duties of their office?
Thank you, "Grandmother Joyce," whom I've been following for months before The Contrarian was founded. Always ON the newest news and fully trustworthy.
Hi from Boca Raton! The height of hypocrisy, those who voted for him are not going crazy over the stock market- if this had been on Biden’s watch, they would be going crazy!!
I’m silently screaming at the 85 million people who did not vote.
IHMO some were too scared by the psy ops to vote.
And there was lots of voter suppression done in many states. Plus the bomb scares. Also, I have to say that the constant and neverending campaigning is exhausting, especially the hate and denigration. That last move of Musk buying the election was a shock that disabled many votes.
Sorry, that was his intention. I don’t think you get to be “disabled” by the “shock” of a famous asshole being an asshole when the consequences were completely foreseeable. They said they would do this and they are. Clutching your pearls when you’re safe in America and not in Gaza, being bombed and starved, is a luxury no one should have had. If you were too shocked to mark your ballot and drop it in the mail, then you owe me and the rest of us who registered voters and marched and campaigned against this to pick yourself up and join the opposition. Just sayin’…
That was a bit harsh. I'm saying that, despite all the donations people made, especially those who aren't rich and have money to share and who might have worked hard to support the election process, Musk bought the election in a moment -- arrogantly making the case against Citizens United. Those who didn't vote might not have included his actions among their reasons for not voting, but they certainly weren't clutching their pearls and probably not enjoying any luxury -- maybe they weren't exhausted or confused or demoralized -- people have varying limits.... But bomb scares and voter suppression laws definitely played a part.
Since voter is an ongoing horror that is projected to get even worse, and I don’t remember the bomb scares, but I’m sure there were some, I wasn’t disagreeing with either of those ideas. But those were people who were actually physically prevented from voting. We are all under siege, and have been, I think, since 2015. I think many of us knew that the Hoover Institute and it’s various allies were very very busy between 2020 and 2023. Trump never back down off the big lie, even though he knew it was a lie. I don’t consider myself, extraordinarily courageous, but yes, given the very narrow margin by which Trump won, I am not in the mood to forgive anyone who could have voted against him and done their share to stay off this order. It is harsh, but it’s just my opinion, and I fully understand that there are those who disagree. I’m not usually judgmental, and that’s the part of my stance that I am uncomfortable with. I’m a community mental health, nurse, and the county I drive my clients through was full of Trump-Vance signs in front of large houses. Those weren’t nearly as bad though, as the ones that said, “Don’t blame me, I voted for Trump.” Those were posted while the economy was booming, the infrastructure was being rebuilt, and America was behaving like an ally towards her allies. So, yeah, my soft side has taken a backseat, at least for the moment.
They had the opportunity to vote by mail or early vote in person. They had options other than voting in person on Nov. 5.
You are both just ignoring the statistical facts. I don't doubt that there were some people deterred by the various political tactics but the FACT is that Trump received virtually the same number of votes in 2024 as in 2020 while Harris received 7 MILLION fewer votes in 2024 than Biden did in 2020. There is just no universe in which THAT kind of disparity could be factually accounted for sure to some kind of political pressure without concrete evidence of actual targeting. And so far there is no such evidence.
That is coupled with the fact that the various polls show that far more people were turned off because of (a) Harris' weak presentation on the campaign trail, (b) her association with Biden's actively pro Israel positions and (c) the sad bias shown against her because of her gender and racial identities.
I am not arguing that there weren't a combination of factors for the loss but given how close the election was both via the popular vote AND the electoral college vote, it is really difficult IMHO to pin the loss on right wing electoral tactics when the facts suggest that a HUGE number of 2020 Biden voters simply decided to stay home.
Unfortunately given our historical protection of voter identity in elections there is no way to categorically PROVE any of the various theories (assuming such exists) as the reason Harris lost but I find it both frustrating and a waste of time to regurgitate these arguments over and over when there is no way to prove any of it. Elections are intended to be momentary events and we should then move on with the arduous task of figuring out how to move forward rather than to waste time hand wringing and moaning about the unfairness of it all.
I was disgusted by the Trump camp's absurd and distasteful lack of acceptance over their loss in 2020 and I am sadly just as disgusted by our sides refusal to accept the verdict in 2024.
GET. OVER. IT!
I found this Guardian article interesting because of the diverse and even contradictory information: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/dec/13/why-eligible-voters-did-not-vote
YOU, Ms Joyce, are fantastic. I do like reading your newsletter, though many prefer video. Just always remember that many sub-pop readers (low tech users [seniors, those without good internet, varied ability folks etc.] may not do so well with video. Being able to do both would be the best of all worlds.
But can the courts act fast enough. Trump and Musk can do real harm before the courts can stop them. Rod W.
Impeach. Feathers of Hope. https://jerryweiss.substack.com/p/remove-impeach-impeach
Daniel, I respect you for your tenacity but I also find it gets more absurd every day. There is no remedy for the electoral catastrophe we Democrats brought on ourselves in 2024. Impeachment will fail in the House because it requires a majority of Reps to impeach and the GOP is the majority there If only by a few votes.
And even if impeachment did win in the House, it requires 2/3 of the Senate to oust an impeached officer and last I looked, Democrats don't have even a slim majority there either let alone a 2/3 majority.
Futile gestures are wasted energy, IMHO. We used to use a crude expression for this, "pissing into the wind".
We should be devoting our attention to the 2026 elections, preserving our right to vote again and doing what we can to blunt the effects of this outrageous administration. Lawsuits are helping but impeachment is pissing into the wind.
What about the special elections coming up? And the important State Supreme Court elections? Those are supposedly winnable given the tide of regret and horror....
Absolutely. We have none in California coming up but i support any efforts on elections to make sure this tide is turned.
The ones I find valuable are the ones that have the transcript below. Andrew Weissman does this and it is great. I do better at reading than just listening.
Totally agree, as one who suffers with hearing probs...only podcasts or vids worth my time are those with accompanying transcripts. Even better are vids with real-time subtitles on YouTube!
One of the things I have not heard discussed is the possibility that crashing the economy is deliberate and will allow for everything to be privatized.
I think breaking every agency in parts and selling the parts to billionaires so all government services become privatized.
Close DOW down 890, great post you two love it and keep it coming.
Hi, Joyce! Heartfelt thanks for sharing this. I find these one-on-one conversations to be even more enlightening than just listening to one person's thoughts, and definitely better than a group of 4 or more people (which never goes deep enough to be meaningful). So I welcome more of these! Ruth Ben Ghiat does a weekly chat with Anand Giridharadas, and I'd love it if you could do the same with Jen Rubin or Norm from the Contrarian. Stay strong, stay safe, and stay sane...and bless you for all you do. :)
An American logging in from FRANCE!
Hello from Canada, Ontario in fact, where Doug Ford who has been emulating Trump the whole time is now saying oh no never Trump. But it's the same "strong man" bs.
I've been reading and listening to a lot of Anne Applebaum, including Democracy Inc, and her insights are incredible and she lays things out incredibly well.
Trump's just here to put as much money as possible in his pockets, he doesn't actually care about anything else. He's here to isolate the US from its longtime allies, crash the stock market, and turn the country into a kleptpcracy.
I am a big (lawyer) fan of yours. You asked for reactions to the videos idea, and mine is that I like the critical analysis that you have been providing in your columns, where you've had a chance to think about and research what you are going to say before you write it out. Like many others, I no longer watch MSNBC or anything like that. I'm really not terrible interested in the outrage du jour. I want long range critical analysis on this insane national nightmare that we are having, and I think you are very good at that kind of thing, like Heather Cox Richardson, Tim Snyder, Anne Applebaum and a few others. The rest is all overload for me. I just can't take it any more.
Thank God for lawyers who are willing to do battle for our country.
A couple of questions for Joyce Vance:
First a little background: When I was commissioned as a U.S. Army Officer, I took an oath obligating me to “...preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic", but not to blindly obey all orders. It was very clear that I was obligated to follow lawful orders, but I had a moral and legal duty to disobey unlawful ones. Every military officer swears a similar oath upon commissioning. Any soldier must follow lawful orders and disobey unlawful ones.
It is a valid defense that an accused soldier was acting pursuant to orders unless that soldier knew the order to be unlawful or a person of ordinary sense and understanding would have known the order to be unlawful. The obligation to obey the orders of superiors does not include orders that are palpably illegal.
My questions: Can this be similarly applied to political appointees? If a political appointee swears such an oath, to support and defend the Constitution, are they also expected to obey lawful orders and disobey palpably illegal orders? In the current Administration, even though the SJC has ruled that the President cannot be prosecuted for illegal acts committed within the scope of official duties, does that immunity extend to his subordinates? I assume it does not. So, are political appointees obligated to obey lawful orders and to disobey palpably unlawful orders? If so, are those appointees exposed to prosecution for failure to adhere to their sworn oath and duties of their office?
Thank you, "Grandmother Joyce," whom I've been following for months before The Contrarian was founded. Always ON the newest news and fully trustworthy.
Unable to hear
Click on the transcript, Heather. Usually works for me. Print is small, but
I just take my time.
I watched it earlier today, thought it was great. Would love to see more.
I love videos!