246 Comments

Joyce, Your comments in this post seem especially important to me. Often, I suspect, many of us want to write or speak about the upcoming election in a persuasive manner, but we don't have handy the three to five items we can tick off that might be helpful. At this juncture, what are the main points you believe would serve us best in influencing voters to reject Trump/MAGA. You're a marvel! Thanks for all you are doing; I know it ain't easy!

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Thank you for this, Ronald. I second this! As a disinformation hunter on Threads, I need good data that I can leverage in a good faith dialogue.

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Your vermin Rot N hell.

That should be all the data you need ‼️

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I have to admit, his attitude as he wrote those words should be enough for anyone to question his fitness for office.

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The problem is falling into a trap of reacting to what Trump says, hateful, outrageous and divisive as it is. It’s disseminating hate and should not be responded to with more hate. Keep cool. I would point out this example of the hate Trump promotes.

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Dec 27, 2023·edited Dec 27, 2023

Lol good one. My vermin Rot N hell....nah, that's not relevant data. I have no use for unsubstantiated claims. Thanks though.

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That’s the point. You’re not fighting data ! Your fighting fascist propaganda and rhetoric and real

time insurrectionists!

Vermin and go rot n hell!

So you’re saying it’s raining outside when Trumph is urinating yellow infected piss on your shoes.

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I know. It’s infuriating. But it is what it is, I guess. I want to give up and let it go. But I don’t want to hide my head in the sand. Per se. You know?

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Hey Joel, it appears I misinterpreted your post. Sorry about that! Yes, that guy says horrid things. His base eats it up, but hopefully it’s enough to turn the non-cult away.

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Joyce, this edition of Civil Discourse was so enlightening and encouraging.

Ronald, has responded almost exactly as I was going to reply. Except more ... as if Joyce doesn't have enough on her plate. Maybe a list of talking points we can go out with either in writing or to neighbors? I'm afraid I'm not the brightest star in the sky and could use help.

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Trudy, I get a chance to talk to a lot of young women in my line of work. Many of them are mothers with young children, but I think this would apply to fathers as well.

I point out that it is not just their freedom and future at stake, it is theirs kids' as well. What would it be like if their kids' did not have a vote, a say so in how they live? What if their girls were forced to have babies or their sons to be fathers with no choice? What if it was illegal for them to voice disagreement with those in power? What if they became ill? Could they afford a doctor? What if they lost a job and there was no safety net to help? There are many examples of the danger of no safety net, no social security.

Many adults can shrug off serious conversations about the future when it pertains to them, but get a lot more serious when they wonder what would happen to their children. It hits home. And it's true. The future and freedom is on the line, for adults and children alike. Voting is our voice in how we live our lives, and it counts. Every one counts.

So, that is my approach, Trudy. Good luck, and give it a try. And thanks.

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No one I am around is planning on voting for Trump, so I find my work is in convincing those who are looking for alternatives to Biden, particularly as regards the Israeli war in Gaza. I have to convince them that a vote for any one but Biden is a vote for Trump.

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I run into that scenario, too. It's a full time job.

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Trudy, i am with you in terms of compressing the mutitude of Trump's sins into a few talking points. For a while I pointed out Biden's good deeds. Now I simply say, "Don't vote for Trump. Just don't do it! He's a criminal." So far, that seems to cause a few moments of reflection. (Although they are civil suits, I point to the proofs of financial and sexual misconduct. I say, "Those are enough reasons for me to never support such a candidate." )

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I think it’s not that hard for us Civil Discourse folks.

There’s the failure to stop the riot on Jan 6.

The pressure on Pence to not do his job, with the gallows.

There’s the dead and damaged Capitol Police officers, many of whom voted for dumpty themselves .

There’s the call to Raffensberger to find votes that didn’t exist. And apparently another to Wisconsin, and the one where what’s his name governor of arizona turned off his ringing phone he was signing the ballot certification.

I think we may hear testimony about what punkinhead planned to do when he went to the Capitol with the mob, which his secret service detail wouldn’t let him do. Dark ugliness, one can only imagine what he planned.

I think put together it’s compelling.

Watching the attack on the Capitol as it happened live, and then the video played at the second impeachment were enough for me, but—a family video night. Pence barely escaping the mob, refusing to get in the car, with a gallows outside. No matter what you think of the former vice president, that is terrifying.

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Ronald, your suggestion is exactly what I've been thinking. Joyce provides excellent talking points in most every post but it's hard to keep them in mind when that rare opportunity comes up (or is created) to converse with someone even considering Trump 2024. Those who get their "news" from the conservative info-verse are simply not hearing many key facts (and are hearing key misinformation). Joyce, a cheat sheet-type resource, kept up-to-date with the latest revelation, would be priceless. We're in the together!

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founding

Check out Simon Rosenberg and Thom Hartmann on SubStack. Both have great Biden Accomplishment lists to share. I often email them to my extended family and friends, asking them to pass along to their contacts. That's what we call influentials' multiplier effect in marketing.

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Your vermin. Rot n hell. Your vermin rot n hell.

If that doesn’t motivate you.

Nothing will.

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We can also say trumps blood is destroying this country as he wants to destroy the constitution and democracy.

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Why are you so concerned about people’s vermin rotting n hell?

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The “rot in hell” was in Trump’s Christmas rant.

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Oh. I don’t read those.

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Big turmoil over Trump's Christmas Truth social comments. If you don't read them, at least know about what he's saying. He has always governed by "tweet" leaving the media and other government to catch up to his decisions. His policy is being 'truthed" revenge etc. Its real.

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I wish we used the popular vote, we need to get rid of the Electoral College!

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The electoral college was formed when our country had 13 colonies that ran like small countries. We still had not achieved suffrage for race (15th Amendment, 1870) and gender (19th Amendment, 1920). What makes more sense to me for equality is stopping gerry-mandering. That's been a Republican shenanigan and it is blatantly racist.

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Janet, you are correct BUT for 2024 getting rid of the electoral college is a dream. The best news is that Trump has never won the popular vote so targeting particular states we can turn away from Trump is important. We can do this by being smart, getting good messages out to voters in key states and districts.

There are already a number of organizations doing this work. Check in with Jessica Craven’s Chop Wood, Carry Water and Robert Hubbell’s Today’s Edition since they frequently point to such groups. Also, check out Activate America, Focus for Democracy, TonytheDemocrat, the Civics Center (focused on young voters), When We All Vote, etc.

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The reason that getting rid of the electoral college for 2024 is a dream is because of the lengthy process to amend the Constitution. "The Constitution provides that an amendment may be proposed either by the Congress with a two-thirds majority vote in both the House of Representatives and the Senate or by a constitutional convention called for by two-thirds of the State legislatures." https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/constitution

The Congressional process, at least, would be limited to a single amendment. However, there's an active effort to call a Constitutional Convention. It's only 6 votes short of the necessary states in order to call a Constitutional Convention. At that point, it's wide open, no limits on proposed amendments (and deletions) and could result in a complete rewrite of the Constitution. Can you see the inherent problems given our current political situation?

"The other, untested way laid out in Article V is for two-thirds of state legislatures to call for a constitutional convention, also known as an “Article V convention,” to add amendments to the Constitution once they are ratified by three-fourths of the states. Throughout the 230-year history of the U.S. Constitution, an Article V convention has never been called by Congress.

The Constitution offers no guidelines or rules on how a convention would work or if a convention can be limited to considering one amendment or subject. Since the Constitution offers no guidance on how applications for a convention should be counted, scholars have offered various legal opinions on the counting of convention applications, but it is generally agreed that all applications from two-thirds of the state legislatures (34 states) should be on the same issue for a convention to be called." https://www.commoncause.org/resource/u-s-constitution-threatened-as-article-v-convention-movement-nears-success/#

Read down in the above article to the section on the "Convention of States" effort. "This proposal calls for a convention for the broad purposes of limiting the powers of the federal government, imposing fiscal restraints on federal spending, and applying term limits for Members of Congress. The vague language in the Convention of States proposal perfectly illustrates the threat of a runaway convention."

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Judith, this is very helpful. Most of all, I am clear about what we don’t want in 2023 or 2024, as you wrote “a runaway convention open to any number of proposals with a total re-write.” (I paraphrased.) I do, indeed, see the inherent problems. Yikes!! Thanks for laying this out so clearly.

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The National Popular Vote compact would have prevented both W and dumpty. It’s our best hope and it’s close. If we can get enough states for that, people will appreciate their vote counting more and I think it will be possible to amend the Constitution. It isn’t now.

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That, also, depends on our votes in 2024 to achieve more legislatures with Democratic majorities.

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YES! Thank you for saying this!

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I recently wrote a letter to the editor. Sweet and simple more people voted for Biden than trump in 2020. Trump would not accept the results and he will not accept the result of 2024. Unless he wins. Then I reminded people to check their registration and id was up to date and to vote in November. Maybe just the facts will be enough to change some minds. Thanks Joyce for your wisdom.

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Democrats need to get out and vote in the primaries. November is too late to find out their local government isn’t going to let them vote. Please encourage people to get involved now. Iowa caucuses in 3 weeks.

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Vermin, “go rot in hell”

He’s referring to you !!!

That’s should be all you need.

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Christine, whatever the case, helping people by reminding them to be checking the voter registration and ID is critical. We would want to be sure people have taken care of details that would make the difference to avoid votes not being counted. Given all the efforts in some states to disenfranchise key voters we should be working everyday with key voters who can make a difference.

Thank you.

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I'd suggest checking voter registration and id NOW. That way there's time to correct any problems.

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Thank you, Joyce. And while you may be the 8th most popular stack in the politics category, for me, and I'm sure many, many others, you're number one at helping us keep hope alive!

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I’m someone who frequently uses ride sharing and I am making it my mission to discuss with the drivers the importance of voting. Most conversations have been positive.

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I love this idea of taking opportunities to start conversations in everyday life. Those are the face to face moments Joyce wrote about. We can all play a role, it adds up. Thank you!

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I always appreciate and enjoy your formidable acumen and thorough missives Joyce - but I am at a loss as to understand the notion that Trump even has a chance to win even without a conviction. He lost last time (fair and square) and his die-hard MAGA base has not grown (but louder maybe). Furthermore, a significant number of old-school (rational) GOP faithful folks who voted for him last time are not going to this time now that they have more clearly seen his malfeasance and his spouting Nazi-like rhetoric during his ongoing (and getting worse) legal liabilities death spiral. Mind you, do we need to be vigilant and "keep the pedal to the metal" about getting the vote out? yes. Bottom line: there will be an even bigger Blue Wave this time🌊🌊🌊.

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I am a huge fan of your optimism ❤️

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Me too!

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Too many are discouraged or unhappy with Biden. Many mysteries stay at home and not vote. I sure hope this does not occur!

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Maybe encourage people who aren’t sure about Biden to listen to his recent sit-down with Conan O’Brien. It’s not literal face to face but his chat with a comedian (a stand-in for “ordinary person”) might have a similar effect. Biden sincerely shares his values, his optimistic hopes and his political creds (plus his love of cars). He is very good at one-one relating. I was affected and I’m already set to vote for him!

https://teamcoco.com/podcasts/conan-obrien-needs-a-friend/episodes/president-joe-biden

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Thank you for sharing this! "Uncle Joe" is really quite an affable old-school soul and a man of integrity. Of course, MAGA types and the conservative networks see that as a weakness since they want a mythical badass hard-headed Putinesque-type leader. Talk about being clueless and "low information". 🙄🤷‍♂️

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Yes, I think we need to focus on the many people who are unregistered, who are registered but may not vote, who are looking at a third party choice, or who are R but quietly unhappy with Trump. If we get big turnout in those groups, we’ve got this.

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Not unhappy ,,

It’s the age thing.

He needs to take it head on or bow out at the convention!

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Dec 27, 2023·edited Dec 27, 2023

Yep: 91 indictments and counting; 2 convictions and counting vs. aging with tennis shoes, performing with dignity and grace, and succeeding beyond measure in restoring the economy and our international image through diplomacy. I guess it's about the tennis shoes.

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Trump is only 3 years younger than Biden and in much worse shape, plus he is a terrible, horrible, no good man.

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A no vote is a vote for TFG.

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Also, that is a meticulously worded response. Thank you! Also a big fan of your avatar “Go fact yourself”. I’m definitely on your team!

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Do you mind if I co-opt that avatar for my own use on Threads?

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Not all - feel free to. It is actually from the humanist, pastor, activist and writer Jon Pavlovitz. It is a design on a Tee-shirt that I have several of (and it always gets a nod from passersby when I wear it). https://pavlovitzdesign.com/products/go-fact-yourself-mens-unisex-tee

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I follow him on Threads.

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Thank you 🙏

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Toward the end of my weekly newspaper column, I wrote this:

The outcome of the 2024 election depends on the answer to this question: comes there a point when facts about President Biden’s and Democrats’ successes are so numerous and Trump’s lies so undeniable that even the fully Foxified will be unable to dismiss them? If they’re in the midst of a hundred sunny days, during which Fox “news” and the whole coterie of media liars, plus Trump, Speaker Mike, et al., tell them around the clock that it’s raining, will they finally notice they’re not getting wet and set aside their red umbrellas? It’s not impossible. But, dang: seeing interviews with them, it sure seems unlikely.

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I believe that the next election will turn on the tuned out, disaffected and disinterested cohort of the electorate. There are some 100 million eligible votors who just need to wake up and participate. We won't change zealots minds and some of us are already convinced of the existential crisis we inhabit. It's the complacent, "They're all crooks and my vote won't make a difference anyway" crowd under whom we need to light the fire.

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@Just Sayin’, Thank you for writing. I simply would amplify by noting, just as Nader was not the cause for Gore’s loss in 2000 nor Stein or Johnson the cause for Clinton’s loss in 2016, 2024 third party candidates would not be the cause for Biden’s loss next year, were he to lose to Trump. The some 100,000 eligible voters, who don’t vote, would.

Additionally, for those who are apathetic because they view 24 as a choice between two evils, I would note that “sometimes the lesser of two evils is a lot less evil.” (Source: American Novelist Rebecca Solnit) One need look no further than 2000 and 2016 for confirmation of Solnit’s observation.

Accordingly, I say we follow @Just Sayin’s counsel and focus on turning out “the complacent,” particularly in battleground states.

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You vermin and should Rot n Hell.

That should do it.

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Dang !! Dang!

He called you vermin and to go to n hell.

If that doesn’t do it nothing will.

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Dude, give it a rest… you’re just being a troll by repeating this ad nauseam. Reality: The Donald has uttered a voluminous litany of vile things over the years. They are dog whistles to his MAGA core only. But - getting indicted and convicted of various forms of malfeasance is a far more powerful deterrent to those that brush off his trash talk.

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Tfg’s Merry Christmas rant was a plea to find him unworthy of the presidency. He really just wants to spend the rest of his life cheating at golf and throwing food at the walls. Let’s arrange that for him.

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S straight forward facts. Simple respectful discussion together with "and" rather than "but' in order to voice a different view. Listening. Not dismissing. Hearing the things people want for their lives and knowing the accomplishments of the current administration can go a long way. Just offering someone a ride in the coming year, for ANY voting event. It can be very difficult to respond with non- damning words when you feel strongly that someone has missed the point which you see so clearly. Attitudes don't shift to the positive that way. I know when I feel someone has heard me, rather than dismissed me, I'd like to hear more from them.

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I think that’s my problem. I’ve never been any good at suffering fools gladly.

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Just a note of clarification. Acceptance of what IS does not imply condoning what IS. Only acknowledgement of existence. There are few lines drawn which cannot modify in order to create compromise and functionality. You kill my cat or rape my daughter, that's not a line I will compromise. Here, we're talking about CONVERSATION with others.

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Leonard Katz

EMPEROR TRUMP!

Recent polls indicate that there is a good chance that ex-President Donald Trump will lose the 2024 Presidential election by a substantial margin.

What is extremely concerning is how he will deal with the loss. The violence that he promoted after losing the 2020 election is nothing compared to what he and his criminal co-conspirators are already planning for 2024.

It is well documented that treasonous MAGA conspirators have infiltrated law enforcement and the military, and are prepared to take orders from Donald Trump and his lawless criminal friends in a final, violent attempt to take over our government and end democracy.

It is imperative that the Biden administration use the tools currently available to root out these treasonous criminals and put them in prison where they belong.

Many of them have gone far enough to warrant execution for their treasonous acts.

It is not enough that we simply sit back and ASSUME that the “good guys”will win as Trump and his criminal co-conspirators will tell the same or similar lies to those told after his loss of the 2020 election. THEY WILL DO ANYTHING TO ASSURE THAT DEMOCRACY IS DESTROYED AS A METHOD OF THEM STAYING IN POWER!

The only thing that matters to them is their own selfish goals.

We must not allow this to happen and must be prepared to fight for what we all know could be the last gasp of Democracy...ITS NOW OR NEVER!

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When Trump loses, at least he won’t have the power of the Presidency behind him to spend the next 2 1/2 months monkeying with the system.

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Fortunately, tFfg doesn't have the platform of the White House this time around. His megaphone is not quite as big and he can't attract quite the same crowd of legal/political sycophants as he had. last time, he was also the incumbent and didn't have quite the same batch of MAGA wannabes yapping at his heels. He is compelling to those who seek out his brand of populism; The Dems, the never Trumpers need to galvanize the huge cohort of disaffected, disinterested, dazed, disgusted,

I'm flabbergasted at how he can retain his grip on the center of the MSM; I lay the responsibility for this on the Democratic Party apparatus. They know their leader, his personal proclivities and his soft step on the campaign trail. They need to make lots more noise on his behalf while he continues to focus on running the country.

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I really hope you're right that there is still hope. I worry if people don't see his absolute awfulness by now they are too lost ( or also too awful). They seem to be doing so well getting trials pushed back too 😭 Big love to you Joyce. You're the sanity in all this madness ❤️

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We want very much to encourage optimism, but not complacency. From all I hear and read, I am extremely optimistic. I have told several people that I have serious doubts that Trump will be on the ticket in Nov. Holy shit!! Just look at what a total wreck he is! He is a moral morass, and most Americans have a decent sense of morality.

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I am still astonished that anyone would consider TFG worthy of their vote. How can this be fixed? Logic does not prevail. I still think a little LSD in the water supply couldn't hurt...

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Think they are already on enough hallucinogens need to get them back to face reality

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I always share your column and I am sorry, but I can’t share this one as I loathe the New York Times for their terrible political reporting since 2016. I do not read, subscribe or spread it’s words.

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As a retired jounalist I have to say the political reporting in The New York Times is extremely professional and well researched. I live in Arizona, but I take the print and online NYT daily ever since Trump announced for president for his 2016 run. At the time I was a Hillary fan, and still am! When I think of the illegal and stupid things Trump did in his presidency I want to cry when I think how much better off this country would be if he had been defeated. I say LET'S GET RID OF THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE. Hillary got 3,000,000 more votes than Trump. I have felt cheated ever since.

Pleas let me know what newspaper or TV news show you depend on for accurate political news. I could go along with The Washington Post, but it doesn't offer print delivery in Arizona, so I subscribe only online.

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Me again -- and i want to add that MSNBC has the same reputation for accuate reporting and good research. THEY BROUGHT US JOYCE VANCE, who has been a port-in-the storm for those of us wanting accurate legal information we can understand.

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While I agree about the electoral college, it isn't going to happen in the foreseeable future because that requires amending the U.S. Constitution. To do so, it's necessary that a 2/3 vote occurs in both Houses of Congress and then 3/4 of the state legislatures must ratify it.

Even worse is the current effort to call a Convention of States, legal but hasn't been done since the U.S. Constitution was adopted. A Convention of States would open the entire Constitution to revision, removal of existing amendments, and/or proposed amendments. In today's political environment, that would be explosive and even more divisive than things are today.

Ideally, the present effort for a national popular vote as is currently being pursued. This requires enough states to sign on to total 270 electoral votes. See https://www.nationalpopularvote.com/written-explanation

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It should its not it’s. I know that rule!

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Right. Could also be not correct "auto correct"

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"that’s why the January 6 hearings moved public opinion so significantly"

I don't recall any significant shift in public opinion following the hearings. Is there some data on this?

Trump has already been convicted in a couple of cases, but it didn't affect his polls in the least, in fact it might have helped him. I'm not sure why this would change with further convictions, which he will just label as political persecution.

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He can’t afford to lose any votes. Lots of factors between now and the next election will whittle away at that base.

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First, you assume Trump people are still in my life. Second, I'm wondering why you haven't spoken up about Substack allowing uncensored white supremacist speech on their site. This is Trump's base. And what Trump did more than anything is to legitimize white supremacist views. Isn't Substack doing the same? And wouldn't you standing up have an impact?

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Carrie:

I love talking to them. It is really easy to peel the layer off and expose them.

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Perhaps you should read Ken White - PopeHat - on this. I'd hate to think you're one of the Looney Left halfwits on this topic.

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Perhaps you should not use your words to embody the very definition of a Boomer mansplainer.

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As ken points out, and my experience at Substack agrees, Substack provides all of us with "nice walled gardens." In my experience, they're high enough that neither I nor the neighbors have complained about noise. I limit comments at my substack to paid subscribers (the trolls are all cheapskates who don't want to pay for their trollery), and until this tempest in a thimble brewed up, I had never in four years on Substack heard any of the names that have been mentioned. It's my experience as a professional writer for the past 40 years that we put up with a lot of crap - the NYC publishing world morons, the "suits" here in Okeefenokee West, and we still manage to get done what we're here to do. The only times I have to deal with idiots is when the Bourgeois Bolsheviks of the Wanker's Guild of America, or any of the other busy bodies who tell us we have to "take a stand" come along with their bs. I always note when looking at what little they produce, that most of it is third rate typing at best, so I have spent the past 50 years successfully ignoring them.

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Actually, Ken points out exactly what I was asking Joyce. Did you read to the end?

Ken White:

“Previously I was thinking of monetizing this newsletter. A primary barrier was putting in the work to post much more regularly — at least 1.5 times a week, I think - to make it plausibly worthwhile. This episode is another significant strike against deciding to do so here, or staying here. The platform is convenient, easy to use, effective, and has a good interface and has a lot of content I like. I suspect there are going to be shitty things about any platform and that any platform will have content I hate. But I’m unhappy with this, and I’m rethinking my plans.”

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If we respond with checked facts to counter disinformation at every turn in real time that would be a positive.

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Good late afternoon Joyce: We all understand the free speech conundrum. If it is not monitored and goes unchecked in real time (ex. Fox News) it weaves a false narrative. I wish all platforms with live capabilities would require live factual responses that counter lies (unlike social media platforms or for example the Maga crowd spewing lies every time they’re in front of cameras and the inability for opposition to get a word in edgewise with the facts. That is certainly a real change I’d like to see in Congress. No more showboating. Just the facts and fact checkers live. How different we could be. Prayers of hope for our beloved Nation and your determination to get us across the finish line victorious 🗽🇺🇸🗳️

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