Friday night, Judge Chutkan rejected Trump’s “big” argument that he couldn’t be criminally prosecuted for acts committed during his presidency because he had blanket immunity. We discussed the motion when he filed it in early October (read here if you want a refresher on its substance). At the time, I characterized the argument as a flawed one, likely to be a swing and a miss.
Not for the first time, I note that if Trump believes that he is not guilty, he should want a trial at the earliest practicable moment, so that his innocence may be pronounced to the voters as soon as possible. After all, he's a candidate for president--he should want to remove the stain on his reputation that criminal charges bring.
Jon, Frumpy doesn’t have a stain. It’s his ‘badge of honor’. He is making a killing on all of his publicity with all of these charges. He’s taking every nickel his sheep 🐑 are sending him. He’s not paid for one thing yet. Not out of his pocket. All of his campaign contributions are moved to his PAC which pays for his lawyers, trips, everything. This scammer has everything the way he wants it. And as long as his lawyers can stall these trials, he’ll make more money.
Now, the flip side of this coin is a lot better. IF this judicial system would stop this preferential treatment of the 🍓🍊🤡💩🤮 then you will see him start getting in these trials in a hurry to try to get out of jail. If they would lock him up in a 9x7 jail cell, he’ll have his lawyers stop this delay crap.
Jon, I have been wondering. First, let me say that I don’t believe gag orders are going to shut DJT up. That being said, I can only imagine what fireworks we might see if he pushes to the point of being put in jail pre-trial.
Where is his nonsense taking us-him?
I sure wish the legal system would move a little more expeditiously.
But then, as Hubbell and others tell us, “It’s up to us.” We have to win at the ballot box. Realizing that the man has not yet won a majority of the popular vote.
True, but that's where the problem of gerrymandering, or as I see it, cheating, comes in. We need a massive turnout of voters to override the crooked efforts of state republicans who know that cheating is their only hope of winning elections in this country.
I think we are limited by... the limited time we have considering teh election date... So if we down want him to delay for ever, we have to do anything to not jail him before the trial. I am sure Jack Smith is the first one to regret the procedures....
His "stain", as you put it, in fact is worn as his own *stigmata*, a sign of persecution and bearing-witness to the slings and arrows of his tormentors, and worn proudly before his adoring masses. Better to stand accused than to be found guilty of the myriad of charges against tRump, IMO.
But Jon, what has he going for him except martyrdom? He would lose an election. It is his only chance. What I am terrified about is Washington Post column by Robert Kagan on Dec 1 and Steven Beschloss substack about the WP article, "Soberly Imagining the Future. In just 13 weeks, Republicans will likely lock in a criminal nominee determined to end democracy." Will we be able to stop him then?
Nicely stated. But Trump would rather play the system and knows he’s guilty. Just listen to or read all the witnesses or tell all Republican books. This has been a real money maker for many even as they give witness and publicly say they would still vote for him. I don’t believe them for a moment. They are just trying to avoid the threats from extremists while cashing in. It’s insanity with blinders.
The DC Circuit's decision denying dismissal of the civil suit, and including the concurring opinions, is a very long albeit comprehensive document laying out in great detail inter alia the actions of tRump during the entirety of the Jan6 events, demonstrating with legal rigour that his actions were that of Candidate tRump and less that of president tRump, and that - contra Nixon v Fitzgerald - the question of "absolute immunity" does not hold, and that the civil suit by Capital police and some members of Congress move ahead. Furthermore, it seems as though the appellate opinion suggested that further expostulation of the immunity business will be taken up during the civil trial to come, where Defendant tRump will have his "day in court" to argue his position.
Although tRump's lawyers no doubt will appeal at some point to SCOTUS, I don't believe that the Court will take up yet another tRump "immunity" appeal...they are done with that and with him, full stop
Yes. I have written and previously posted a poem (of sorts) recognizing that he (DJT) has made us all sick - his supporters and those who recognize his failed character and behavior
Well, as the Kagen piece laid out better than I ever could, Trump and his fellow travelers are and existential threat. When it is eliminated we can stop being in this maddening heightened state of vigilance. I wish the Republican party, Mitch McConnell and so many others had acted when they had the opportunity, but they didn't.
They never wanted to. They knowingly were enablers from the outset convinced they could stuff the courts and run their long-standing game to break the beast.
Well Mimi, my point is that we are not able to get beyond the all consuming DJT. Every day we wait to read what has happened, what DJT and his lawyers said, what the courts are doing, not doing, how the GOP is obstructing today per the Trump right wing plan, when to next chess move is made, how we get out the vote. (So much more.) Wouldn’t you say that our energies are absorbed by the nuttiness of this crisis of governance and a childish failure to solve or explore options/ideas crucial to humanity’s well- being; options like gun violence, capitalism’s inequality, increasing hate crimes, outlandish and harmful suppression of freedom for women, gays, transgender people, environmental crises, racism, a drug epidemic, etc?
I’ll have to post the full poem in the morning. As it goes on I ask when and how do we move to healing a nation and working together for the good of one humanity?
Check back tomorrow if I haven’t already left you feeling “this guy’s the nut, not the rest of us.” Alas! The poems concluding thoughts embrace the novel idea that we are all one humanity and would be best served to heal ourselves of the current plague of divisive vitriol. By golly, Mimi, you have put me on the spot with a great post requiring context. See you tomorrow. Absolutely love your challenge.
We are sick, mentally and physically. I'm exhausted. I've been exhausted since 2016. Four years of trump, a pandemic, Jan 6, the GOP, climate change. It numbs my brain. During this time my Dad died and our cat had cancer and had to be euthanized. I am not one of those people that can just completely tune all of this out.
I take breaks from social media and all the stupid when I need to. I try to focus on things that make me happy. I treasure the posts of Joyce's chickens, and laugh when Jeff Tiedrich goes on a hilarious rant. I love my family and my little senior Pekingese rescue dog. This is the new normal so we have to find ways to cope or it will kill us. I don't know how people live in a war zone, and I hope we never find out.
What I see here is a political landscape that has made us all sick, anguished and struggling since the election of a figure who has dominated our thoughts and behaviors.
We have made ourselves sick as a nation with our preoccupation with him - whether seen as good or bad.
He has made us sick with leadership that has at every turn divided - us vs. them – with no apparent intention of uniting us for our common good.
He has built upon centuries of injustice and inequality among us, seizing upon our anger, frustrations and disappointments in achieving the American Dream.
In this we all have played a role from time to time with divisive rhetoric and demeaning behaviors as we interact with one another.
We are now faced with a task of making hard, loving choices.
Will we choose to the begin the difficult but urgent process of acknowledging our illness?
Will we choose the arduous work to heal our nation in unity?
Will we choose to value all people who make this nation great - each seeking life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness with economic, social, and spiritual security?
Will we choose to recognize that we are one humanity?
Will we find a path forward to respect, value and listen to one another?
Will we choose to find common ground and move beyond to a higher sense of our shared identity?
I’m thinking that “immunity” is a question of law and perhaps not a question for the jury to consider & perhaps the trial court will instruct the jury properly.
I have zero confidence that the majority of the current Supreme Farce are suddenly done with the person willing to stack the court against the best interests of the American people.
My impression is that the majority on the Court is politically aligned with the Defendant but they consider him an arriviste and look down on him. Since he has no power over them, they are free to express their spite with negative opinions. Or simply ignore him, as you suggest.
This doesn't account for Judge Cannon, who is similarly immune from retribution but continues to act as his Florida lawyer. She maybe hoping for a appeals court appointment, or maybe she just feels insecure in a role she's not qualified to fill.
Thank you Joyce. Democracy is on the ballots and the docket. I hope that Democrats really run on the message and truth that Democracy is on the ballot. For the reactionary people who everywhere are responding to tweets, posts on everything “Free Palestine” and ignore the peril of a Democratic loss, the message need to pull from the primary improv rule “yes, and”. That’s it. Anyone wanting to agitate and be an activist for anything resembling liberty for anyone would do best by getting on the Biden train. And that doesn’t mean being a follower but being an activist and advocate, a true advocate, for DEMOCRACY. I absolutely cannot understand or respect the people saying “well, but... he supports Israel” or whatever myopic agenda a person has. And why do people keep forgetting that Kamala Harris is young and intelligent and right behind Biden should his health fail in a second term? Honestly I think it is covert or unconscious sexism and racism. Anyone who isn’t strongly working for a big blue wave to flood the ballot boxes next year is not really wanting humane liberty, just a temporary blood soaked soap box to stand on that will enable the malignant right to perpetuate itself like the cancer it is
The Presidential Records Act has been mentioned mostly with regard to the classified documents case. However there’s a connection to this case as far as the definition of presidential and personal records. Under PRA, records of president’s political associations and involving his own election as president are personal records, consistent with the view that political/election matters are not official acts.
Trump often misdescribes the PRA as establishing his ownership of his presidential records: I had a perfect right to take them. He is lying. The PRA says the opposite: Presidential records, as defined in the act, belong to the country. President maintains custody of them while in office, but custody is automatically assumed by NARA when his term ends, i.e. 12 noon jan 20.
The associate Director of the National archives started making requests for classified documents nearly as soon as Trump left the White House. Those documents are controlled with cards that have electronic and handwritten signatures on everyone who touches them. They did not return to the files. Everyone knew what documents were missing and that he had no right to them. Finally after many months of correspondence with, Trump’s attorneys the acting Director of the national archives, received a letter from Biden at her request for a definitive response on whether he needed those documents to run the government, and he answered that indeed, he did. The acting Director of the archives sent Trump’s attorney, a hammer down letter, giving him a deadline, he missed the deadline. They extended it, and then she informed him that she was informing the department of Justice and the FBI that she had made the official request, and he had not complied. Finally, they did comply and that attorney became a witness against Trump. The DOJ reviewed the documents that were finally given to them. Following that review since they knew documents were missing… It’s sort of like going into an IRS audit and you should assume that they already know everything before they start asking questions so given the FBI knew the documents were missing they raided. Jack Smith was hired to run the show… Came from The Hague in Belgium - requested a grand jury. Then he made his indictment. Given that the bar for an indictment has to be above 95% and this is a special case involving a former president, I’m thinking the Jack Smith guess on probability of winning is probably around 99%. Of course, Trump and Company will wine cry and moan about witch hunt and unfair. And we haven’t even started talking about where some of the missing classified documents are at this moment because they were not all returned.
Barbara, Anthony Pratt, a member of Mara Largo is scheduled to testify at the documents trial that Trump showed him documents that were Top Secret. It will be interesting to learn the date of that disclosure. I am wondering if it followed the August 2022 Mara Largo raid.
The hardest thing for me has been to grasp that a POTUS would abrogate our federal laws. And to do it on the level Trump has. I’m sure as well that he has done more than has been published in the indictments: and that is why some of the most prestigious, individuals from business and the military resigned from the cabinet. It’s like justice, Stewart said when asked to describe the test for obscenity: “ I know it when I see it.”
These individuals knew dictatorship in the making when they saw it, and they wouldn’t tolerate participating with him. no when these folks like general, Milley appear on television to warn the country about Trump, he threatens them. And I think Romney made a very clear statement about people still in Congress. I haven’t read his book and I intend to, but he said in an interview that he is spending $5000 a day to protect his family from threats. He believes they are originating from Trump. And he clearly stated that the other members of Congress could not afford to do what he was doing for protection. Truly why we have to work hard, even when we are spent. That’s my case anyway. It’s exhausting, but we will have to live with exhaustion until Election Day November 5, 2024 as we write our emails and blogs, make phone calls, reach out to friends and neighbors and write postcards.
Sorry, not trying to kick the can again: I still am trying to digest that he has documents from security meetings and such for which there is no chain of custody record, no control. I'm an old hippy dippy and honestly, until very recently, and after joining Joyce's Substack did not believe in incarceration unless for a heinous crime such as murder or one who posed a serious threat of injurity or murder to others. I have completely changed my mind after becoming aware of the horrid things Trump has done - but most of all: the threat to our security. He should be jailed as soon as possible in a place with zero outside communication. I know it's been a long haul as the DOJ has been bringing him to trial. But I believe they have dotted the i's and crossed the t's because Jack Smith cannot afford to make a mistake. When he makes the shot it needs to be a bulls eye. So glad Alex Whiting is back from The Hague as his wingman. But today was an eye-opener when you pointed out that there is simply no record for all the documents. I keep asking myself: first, how can this be? and, secondly, how can a president break the security laws of the United States? It truly makes sense that General Milley stated: "Trump is completely unqualified to be president of the United States." I hope voting members of the military are listening to that statement.
Hi Valere! Not ghosting you but i was off line for a while. Yes Trump’s behavior is thoroughly awful. He truly has no concept of the president as servant; he saw it as glorification of himself. Total ignorance of American ideals. A liar, a cheater. Totally unfit for any office. This situation is so far outside normal that the brilliant work and presentation by the Jan 6 committee were necessary to expose it. But all while clock ticked. You are right no one can afford a misstep now.
Trump does seem to be losing control now -- saying more and more totally nutty stuff. It is terrifying and nearly unbelievable
But I think this has been in the headlights for quite a while to sponsor someone besides Trump because the federalist society has been writing about him, publishing about how the 14th amendment should be put in place
I heard from someone who knows a former high level republican operative (I know, ‘my cousin’s in law cousin told me), but a big guy in the world said that the big money is going after Nikki Haley, and they’re putting the money behind her. I have no clue who the big money would be for Republicans. But I guess there’s a lot of people who think they can remake her in a very short time to be somebody the MAGA will vote on because they think the MAGA will say if they can’t vote for Trump and they won’t vote for anyone. And this woman said that the big money thinks Trump is wearing out from the lawsuits. I couldn’t be happier. That’s the latest rumor. It’s probably a rumor but given who she said, and she knows really well I think that it’s plausible. So I’m looking at Nikki Haley turning out like what? Sarah Saunders or whatever her name is, somebody like that instead of herself? I’m just waiting to see if there’s some kind of a fashion change with Nikki, but I think it would be something appealing to MAGA.
It wasnt just classified docs that were missing. Many docs that are not classified are Presidential Records and were noted as missing and sought by the Archives. Wasn’t it the unexpected finding of classified documents in documents returned (eventually) that escalated things.? That was definitely referred to the DOJ as improper holding of classified material violates national security laws rather than or in addition to the PRA. I think that led escalating requests with DOJ and eventually to the subpoena, which specified documents marked classified,neatly avoiding Trump’s silly assertion that he had declassified everything just by thinking about it.
I don’t think it’s quite accurate to say that Biden had to certify he( biden) “couldnt run the government without them”. That would be a very startling assertion! Do you have a source for that phrasing?
On some occasions Biden had to state whether he asserted Executive Privilege over Trump era docs held by the archives because they were sought by Jan 6 committee ( or maybe other entities) I think the archive guidelines i linked to explains how they handle release when executive privilege is an issue.
I think the indictment in the Florida classified docs case contains a good history of Archives discussions with Trump and how it escalated and morphed into the classified docs case. i don’t recall it covered the executive prvilege issues.
The history outlined in the Florida indictment gave a timeline and examples of Walt Nuata moving the boxes, how they were scheduled to go to New Jersey but Melania said they would not fit on the airplane, how 15 boxes were turned over and the FBI raided in August 2022 to gain another sum of boxes (31). It may have indicated that there was discussions with NARA that led to morphing into the classified documents case. But the DOJ/FBI and Pentagon knew from January 20, 2021 when Trump left the White House that he had taken some 400 classified documents with him because the safes that contained the empty files and chain of custody cards showing the time and date of delivery of those 400 files to Trump were the proof. The logs showed the files were removed and never returned. But again, there is a process in the US for gaining documents back. Trump stalled in every imaginable way. I have no clue whether the DOJ/FBI and Pentagon called Debra Wall at NARA and told her about the quandary they were in with the missing 400 classified files. But she was the link (by law) to the documents that could typically be kept for the former presidents to write their histories over a two year period. The difficulty was that not a single president had absconded with 400 classified files on leaving office, including Top Secret eyes only (only 5 individuals in the government are allowed to see these! There was a circus and Trump was the lead performer: he announced at one point that he did not have ANY classified documents because he had looked at them (gazed at them) and 'declassified them.' So it became a tangled mess - and at the end of the day, Debra Wall had to make the determination that Trump did not have 'executive privilege' to keep these documents. So far as the unclassified documents - I'm not sure if she exempted those and told him he could keep them. The illegal removal of documents with classified markings is the only concern of Jack Smith.
Sorry-- one more point. Executive Privilege does not mean Trump could keep something. it means it could be withheld from release to entities outside the executive branch. Ex Presidents or their designated reps can get access to their own presidential records. However those remain property of the united states and ib legal custody of the archives.
Barbara B., Did I write that? It was an error: 'for eyes' but above Top Secret. There was one document Trump had, and it is not clear that it has been returned, that was marked 'for eyes only.' That's the one. Jack Smith has not clarified and not sure it will be brought up at trial - it may be the map. Sorry I didn't proof well.
Post #1: Hi Barbara, Things were escalating before the FBI review of the first return of15 boxes of documents from Mara Largo. The FBI and DOJ had been informed by the Pentagon (and possibly other departments) that 400 classified documents had not been returned to their safes. There were chain of custody records for all of these approximately 400 documents. The DOJ/FBI had expected to find the entire group of some 400 classified documents (Top Secret/eyes only/other classified documents) because Trump's attorney, Evan Corcoran had been assured by Trump that the documents were all in the 15 boxes. Corcoran, however, did not believe Trump, took notes about his behavior and contacted the DOJ after he had a colleague sign that she verified all the classified documents were in the 15 boxes. (The colleague has now been indicted, and she has had to get her own attorney). The DOJ found only 100 classified documents. They then had the FBI raid Mara Largo. I have answered your question beginning in the next paragraph that you didn't think it was accurate for Biden to state he required the documents to run the government. Indeed, he did say that, and I have posted a link in my next response with the link to his letter. NARA had spent 17 months haggling with Trump and his attorneys about the return of documents, including some 400 classified documents. DOJ, FBI and the Pentagon all knew these documents were with Trump because of chain of custody cards. Finally to comply with a Jan 6 committee request, the President, Joe Biden had to demand their return. He did this through a letter from his WH attorney to Ms. Wall at NARA on May 10, 2022. [That letter stated that Biden needed the documents to run the country. He absolutely did need them because they were required for a January 6 hearing request]. That link is in my Post #2. Then the acting director for NARA made the demand for documents on May 10, 2022 (the same day she received Biden's letter) and gave a deadline to Trump that she was turning everything over to the FBI on May 12, 2022. In her May 10, 2022 letter to Trump, Ms. Wall denied Trump's request for Executive Privilege. This denial was necessary to gain the balance of 300 some missing classified documents. Thousands of unclassified documents were missing, but for the purpose of the Florida DOJ case, I am only researching missing classified documents. I have more links and copies of correspondence between NARA and Trump's attorneys - these two links in Post #2 only cover classified documents.
I do not ever want to see whatever this uncontrollable toddler scribbled on a piece of toilet paper that is now considered a “presidential record”. But I’ll fight to the end to keep it out of Trump’s custody.
Hi Barbara B, I wrote in-depth a month or so ago about the classified documents that were missing. I included the references and the links to those references for the sources, so anyone could easily use those links to pull up the documents that exist on-line. I have two of these links here – and can find the rest tomorrow. The issue with NARA was they knew in February 2021 that classified documents had left the White House and had spent the entire year of 2021 attempting to regain these classified documents from Trump. The FBI, DOJ and Pentagon knew these documents were missing and were alarmed about the Top Secret and ‘eyes only’ classified documents. At some point during this period, Trump announced that he had ‘declassified’ them by ‘looking at them’ That’s not how it works. There is a series of events to declassify, and some are simply never declassified. Some of the missing documents were so sensitive that only five officials in the entire government had permission to look at them – and that’s why the pressure was on to get them back. By law (since there was no prior precedent the return had to be requested through NARA). NARA had many discussions with Trump’s attorneys. In December 2021, following numerous requests from NARA, Trump’s attorneys affirmed they had found 15 boxes of classified documents. Finally, in January 2022, a full year after the request was issued by NARA, the fifteen boxes of documents were returned to NARA. NARA found some 100 classified documents, many with Top Secret markings and some ‘eyes only.’ Approximately 300 classified documents were still missing. NARA had been informed this by the FBI, DOJ and Pentagon in January 2022. On March 9, 2022 Trump claimed ‘executive privilege.’
President Biden's [from White House attorney Dana Remus, 5-10-2022] letter to the Acting Director of NARA stating that he needed the classified documents specifically to run the country is found in the link below. They were referencing only the some 100 classified documents found in the initial return of 15 boxes of records, not the unclassified documents. These were Top Secret and ‘eyes only.’ Here’s the link to that communication: https://www.archives.gov/files/foia/remus-letter-to-wall-re-trump-03.08.2022-privilege-letter-re-january-6-request.05.10.2022.pdf
The same date that Biden [through attorney Dana Remus] wrote this letter to the Acting Director of NARA, Ms. Wall followed with a letter to Evan Corcoran, Trump's attorney with whom she had been negotiating the return of records. Here is Ms. Wall’s letter from NARA to Evan Corcoran: https://www.archives.gov/files/foia/wall-letter-to-evan-corcoran-re-trump-boxes-05.10.2022.pdf
In this letter she denied Trump’s claim for ‘executive privilege’ and gave him until May 12, 2022 to return the still missing 300 documents.
Recall, NARA had been requesting the missing documents since February 21, 2021. I found some of those written requests and will look for those links tomorrow (they are on another computer – however, they are all available on-line if you wish to search for them). There were more than 300 classified documents at issue and almost 3,000 unclassified documents. Ms. Wall’s letter ‘denied the former president’s “protective” claim of privilege; refused to extend additional time for the return of the documents and informed the Corcoran that she was giving the FBI access to the documents on May 12, 2022. [Corcoron’s colleague signed that the 15 boxes contained all the classified documents and Trump confirmed this to the attorneys the morning before they were turned over to the FBI. The FBI found only 100 classified documents in their review . Since the chain of custody cards that the DOJ/FBI had known about from February 2021 indicated there were some 400 classified documents in Trump’s possession, the FBI knew they had not received all of the missing classified documents]. The FBI proceeded to raid Mara Largo in August 2022 and found 33 boxes containing 100 classified documents including Top Secret, ‘eyes only’ and other classified documents. So, as of August 2022, about 200 additional classified documents, including Top Secret and ‘eyes only’ documents are STILL missing. The FBI and DOJ know what documents are missing. I explained in depth the chain of custody procedure in another post on this substack. But documents leave safes in the Pentagon (or other government agency) and a card on the document is signed, showing who removed it, the date, time and where the document is going. A duplicate card is left in the empty file in the safe. A control log lists the name of the file, number, date of removal and name/department of individual with the file. The files are checked off as ‘returned’ in the log when they are placed back in the files. In Trump’s case, some 200 classified files = are not back in their appropriate files and Jack Smith and his team know exactly what the files are, when they were given to Trump and by whom.
The DOJ has only been concerned with retrieving the classified documents that Trump had removed from the White House. It took time to go through the process of gaining some 200 classified documents back (with another 200 missing: there has never been a precedent of having classified documents removed. Because Trump claimed executive privilege, an entire year was spent as Trump stalled the retrieval).
Trump launched his 2024 presidential campaign early, on November 15, 2022. On November 18, 2022, Merrick Garland announced Jack Smith would be the special counsel to investigate Donald Trump. Jack Smith was at The Hague prosecuting former Kosovo president Hashim Thaci for war crimes including harvesting and selling body parts of those who had opposed him. High level American diplomats including Hilary Clinton had urged Thaci to cooperate with forming a court in Kosovo. Then Vice President Joe Biden wrote to him as well. Hilary and Joe Biden knew Thaci had created a mafia state in Kosovo. He was arrested by Jack Smith’s agents on November 3, 2020, on the steps of his airplane as he was preparing to fly to the US to meet Donald Trump. The 2020 election day was November 3, 2020. Trump knew he had lost. Thaci was scheduled to arrive on the evening of November 3, 2020. Why was Trump meeting with Thaci on the eve of his election loss?
This Remus letter bears on Executive Privilege-(as it says @ the beginning)-whether records of the Executive Branch can/will be shared outside the Executive Branch--not classification. (Executive Privilege can apply to classified or unclassified documents.) As you know, Trump had claimed Executive Privilege to keep some of his records away from Jan 6 Comm (a Legislative-Branch, ie NonExecutive Branch, entity). But the assertion of that privilege ultimately belongs with the current President (Chief Executive) and this is Remus saying that Biden does not want to assert that privilege on this material. It doesn't use the phrase "necessary to run the government", which is not the issue with regard to executive privilege.
The Venn diagram representing the overlaps among Presidential Records, things covered by Executive Privilege, classified things, and (for that matter) Federal Records (which is not much mentioned with regard to Trump as it covers things other than Presidential Records) and the laws that govern them (and access to them) and the agencies who implement, obey, and enforce them would certainly be impressive and somewhat confusing. (it helps to have had a career's worth of experience with some of them.) If's important to keep the legal domains and authorities straight. NARA was initially most concerned with Presidential Records (for which they have custody on behalf of the United States who (per PRA) owns them once a presidency ends. They noticed things missing -- believe two publicly famous were the Alabama Hurricane Sharpie diagram and Kim Jong Uns's "love letters."
Tips of the iceberg. They also noticed the mishandling of classified docs returned with larger sets of Presidential Records. the Archives can, of course, handle and preserve classified records, but no one, including them, would properly find them mixed randomly in shipments not handled as classified--that's just gross evidence of mishandling.
Your description on handling of classified documents (with signature cads recording access ) may well apply to some docs in some situations -- like going to the EOP, but is absolutely not universal.
Hi Barbara, This is more of a 'why' did Trump take the documents question, but do you think Trump understood classified documents did not land on his desk without a record of where/when they had left a safe and he could thus walk off with them without anyone knowing? (I realize there is no way of knowing that Trump 'thought' but remember, this is the guy who had his 30 year old body guy, Johnny McKentree, write an exec order to bring back thousands of troops from the Mideast, Africa and Germany, and had it hand-delivered to the Secretary of Defense without going through a single chain of command). I am wondering how he left the White House with classified documents and according to the DOJ, some 200 are missing. I know the logistics seem to have been in trucks because pictures are published showing boxes sitting around. But 'how' and executive office did not have a single person who understood you could not box up Top Secret (and special designations), other classified documents, and take them away to Mara Largo. Trump was informed nearly immediately on leaving office in January 2021 that he needed to return documents (NARA may have noticed the sharpie pen Alabama map was among those because Joe Biden formed a Task Force in 2021 to look at how Trump, or staff at his direction, went directly to two top NOAA administrators and threatened them with their jobs if they did not rewrite the map for the Dorian alert they had put out to include Alabama. It's against the law to alter weather maps once they have been issued. The Task Force ended up including many agencies and the final report issued reaffirmed that presidents cannot interfere in NOAA and such (and of course it violates the law if they do. Trump has not been charged for that violation - not sure if the two employees at NOAA lost their jobs or were forced to resign). The sharpie pen Alabama map and the Kim Jung Un letters were returned a year later, in the fifteen boxes of documents returned in January 2022 along with the Top Secret compartmentalized documents. I'm not sure the document that was compartmentalized allowing just five individuals to see was included or if Trump has it still - but it was removed in the lot he took with him on January 21, 2021 (and those were the fifteen boxes that Trump had told Corcoran contained 'everything' and for which Corcoran had his colleague sign off to the FBI). So NARA and departments with missing classified documents were concerned before January 2022 - they had a long back and forth - letters to that effect are on-line. The May 10, 2022 letter is not the only letter that NARA has posted. Corcoron suspected everything was not included and did not sign off himself to the FBI, but ended up going nearly immediately to the DOJ to become a witness for them. The attorney from Corcoran's office who signed has spoken with Jack Smith and has had to get her own attorney to defend. The antennas at NARA were up throughout 2021 as NARA attempted to get the documents from Trump.
Trump was trying to throw a wrench into returning documents before he returned a single document of those he had taken to Mara Largo. He stalled the NARA requests throughout 2021 with his back and forth with the Acting Director of NARA. Those letters are posted on line - I recall one attorney was Corcoran, now a witness for the DOJ, but I think there was another one. Trump was questioned by his own attorneys on whether there were still missing documents not included with the 15 boxes with the mixed classified and nonclassified documents that Corcoron and colleague gave to the FBI. He hid over 100 of those. The DOJ gave the subpoena to Trump's attorneys soTrump knew the FBI had a planned raid. Trump's attorneys warned him how serious the subpoena was and how different it was from NARAs many requests. So he knew he had lied to his own attorneys, hid documents at Mara Largo, took some to New Jersey, and then claimed executive privilege in March 2022. I thought the scenario for Ms. Wall, Acting Dir at NARA to ultimately make the decision that Trump could not have executive privilege went like this: the 15 boxes were given to NARA by the FBI in January 2022 (a year after the haggle for the return had begun). NARA discovered the mixed in Top Secret and other and notified the DOJ. DOJ knew Ms. Wall at NARA was continuing to try to get other documents from Trump even though he had told his attorneys 'this is all there is' meaning the 15 boxes. So Ms. Wall had information that 'this was not all that was missing.' In response to the further press from NARA, Trump asserted executive privilege in March 2022. I assume the DOJ let Biden know this because he wrote a letter to Ms. Wall through his White House counsel instructing her it was her decision to make whether Trump had exec privilege. That was not really a choice at all - Trump had no right at all to those documents. I thought Biden needed to write to Ms. Wall as a formality to keep the government running and to move up the time-line to get the documents back so Trump could not continue to delay. And it was a formal request to allow the FBI to inspect the documents Trump had returned to NARA. Since they had Top Secret compartmentalized documents that represent the governments most closely guarded secrets, the DOJ thought taking them represented criminal activity. I do agree with you that the protocol for transferring documents is not the same for all agencies. There is a protocol for the many thousands of well educated, diligent employees, including the Executive Branch and civil service employees who are career and stay through as presidencies change and then there was Trump, grabbing documents from briefings to 'take upstairs with him.' How silly of me to think that a protocol would be followed for the most sensitive documents? I truly thought that was the case when I wrote the first post about Trump having the classified documents - I had assumed a regular protocol had been followed. Recalling now that people resigned over this very infraction, including John Bolten. He was not a favorite of all but he talked about how careless Trump was. Thank you for your clarifications. We must win in 2024💙
Trump’s staff knew from the beginning of his presidency that they would have to send not only classified docs but presidential records as well and they needed to keep all this stuff straight Trump never instituted anything like disciplined document management in his office. Some people (kelly for sure) understood it and tried but he just had no concrpt that he coukdn’t ( and actually shouldnt )do anything he felt like.
Read the NARAGuidsnce to new administrations then think of his boxes with golf dhirts,newspapers, classified docs all mixed up together.
The fact is that the President is the boss of all this stuff and these are all promulgated on his behalf.
It’s part of Trump’s personality that he simply doesnt think rules ( or laws, sigh) apply to him. He doesn’t care that he has documents somebody thinks he shouldnt have. If called on it he’ll hide them or trash them or lie and ssy he doesnt have any.
Early in my career my wonderful boss (AF Colonel) taught me the difference between a rule and a law. Them that make the rules can break the rules. Laws -- umm, no. Of course many rules are made to help people not break the laws.
Re: five eyes. You have said several times that there were documents classified so highly only five people could see them. Trying to imagine why you think that and the only thing i could think of was the references to docs marked five eyes which does NOT mean that but sounds like it does to someone who never heard of five eyes. You seem to be trying hard to research and describe things accurately which is really hard from the scattershot information available and i was honestly just trying to steer you gently away from a wrong interpretation.
ps: it was truly an orderly and atrocious. I’m less concerned about how chaotic the records were thrown around than I am about the missing ones. But I think the Australian billionaire is going to testify about what he saw on a map. Trump is trying to discredit him and call him a liar and crazy. But I don’t think this guy is threatened by Trump. So if Trump calls somebody down tomorrow, Lago, it gives them the typical three choices to shut up and support me: number one you can make a lot of money. (the billionaire isn’t going to care about that.), number two you can go swim with the sharks; number three you can pull an Epstein. I just don’t think the billionaire is threatened and I think he’s going to go ahead and testify. Trump is threatening the wrong person. I guess if I was really worried I’d make a lot of money but I just think the guy is going to go ahead and testify. March 4 2024 is the trial date and it will go on for five or six weeks with prosecution putting on witnesses first. Super Tuesday is March 5, 2024, and while everyone else is trotting around campaigning, Trump’s going to be in court.
I am no expert at all, and I think you’ve had a much longer career. Mine was not long, and it was command post pentagon. If I said five eyes, that was a mistake, because I believe I said, or meant to say “eyes only..” And that meant five people: POTUS, SecDef, my 4 star, no colonels in the office - and I was not allowed to see ‘eyes only’. I do not know for certain if there were two other people because I don’t know who those two others were or would be I just knew the ones that were on our list. I was never allowed to see anything like that because my understanding was it was above top-secret, and I was not cleared. I’m just astonished at how cavalier Trump has been laws or no laws, rules, or rules. He has no respect. And that is why General Milley said he should never ever be president. So when I heard the documents had eyes only that was my assumption from that career. And actually so few years that one couldn’t call it a career. It was a job on the way to a career. But I do recall the carefulness, and how those documents and envelopes were handled. I don’t think I ever did any Internet searching on ‘eyes only.’ I think that came from one of the interviews perhaps MSNBC after the FBI raid my thought then was “oh oh” and I hope those were files that had stuff in them. I think you do have a career or did have a career. I had an experience for a few years, and I honored the laws and the rules. I’ve written about how egregious it is that Trump could take these kinds of documents, and have them stored openly not even locked. I’m sure a lot of people - with a lot more information than I have or ever will have - have raised their eyebrows over this. I think Jack Smith is raising his eyebrows. Somewhere I read, or understood that he wasn’t including some of these documents in his trial, because they were so sensitive. I don’t know if that’s on the Internet or not, but it certainly made sense to me at the time. However, at that time, I had no idea that there were Top Secret maps being shown to non cleared individuals.
I’m hoping everything is returned. Right now I think there are about 200 classified documents that have come back. Again, if I said five eyes, I’m not sure what I could’ve been thinking. But I clearly know what I was thinking, when I said ‘eyes only.’ And that surely did not mean my eyes.
Another one of trumps problems is that he is convinced he knows more than the generals ,doctors, race stewards, meteorologists whatever. Your example of having johnny Mcentee draft that thing without getting advice is a perfect example. Another horrible prospect fot another term where his loyalists just salute and do whatever dumb thing he trlls them.
I suppose the ONLY thing trump is really good at is stalling when the odds are against him. This is a really bad precedent that shows anyone with the ability to pay their attorneys for endless appeals can tie up the courts for a very long time. We are all flabbergasted by these delays and need the hammer to fall on him at least once! Please!
You describe the law we are all under in America. All of us being treated the same has been a joke for a long long time. Nevertheless I am impressed by the steadfastness of the many judges who have presided over so many of the Muffin's frivolous court actions, so far.
Bryan. I agree with you! I feel a little smarter each time I read one of her posts. The one today was especially "note-worthy" --- and deserving of a gold star. (Pardon my flashback to elementary school decades of ago, when the teachers would put stars at the top of our papers and tests, each color star representing the rating. Gold was, of course, the best!)
I think a lot of people are thinking that crimes committed more than three years ago and still not prosecuted hardly count as speedy. It would be useful to have an explanation as to why this is taking so long.
Well, to begin with, the crimes were not charged immediately. They had to be investigated and Trump and his co-conspirators put every obstacle in the way of investigators. Then, too, for quite a while it seemed like the DOJ was not moving as aggressively as it should have. That may not have been true--it may be a reason why Jack Smith was able to move as rapidly as he did--but we'll need to wait until the inside dope is available to see which side is right on that one.
Exactly. Trump stalled by refusing to comply with multiple requests from the acting Director of the national archives. Finally, he needed to be forced to comply when she wrote him a letter and told him she had given her correspondence to the DOJ and the FBI and that followed a letter from Biden saying he needed those documents to run the country. Within two months. The DOJ did their proper review of the documents they were given, which were missing documents according to government file cards. This review took two months, which was conducted according to the federal law. Trump knew all along that the DOJ and the FBI were involved and he knew a raid was coming.
During this time frame Trump made an unscheduled trip to Mara Lardo from New Jersey. The trial will show whether new documents suddenly showed up in the unsecured bathroom where top-secret eyes only documents were found during the FBI raid. Within two months of this raid, Jack Smith was hired. But don’t forget Trump announced his presidential campaign three days before Jack Smith’s official appointment was announced. Indeed, an entire investigation was conducted by Merrick Garland and company prior to Jack Smith arriving. The minute Jack Smith got to Washington DC. He was able to call for a grand jury investigation. My sense is that some of the people who are posting and I don’t know for sure, because not many critics of Merrick garland are attorneys; but it’s a complicated case. And most folks haven’t had complicated cases involving civil and criminal. They can take a lot of time and I’m just amazed that it’s going as quickly as it is. I’ve been involved in those kinds of cases but nothing at this level. I’m so impressed with our prosecutors. Nothing but praise for them. They are dealing with a multiple headed snake. And they’re doing a fabulous job. I expect when win, win and win and add to that win on prosecuting Steve Bannon by Manhattan, district attorney Alvin Bragg.
I understand all that, but if there is concern as to why none of this is hurting Trump, this is why. The public is probably only dimly aware that all of this is happening. This is not the fault of the media, the stories are being dutifully reported, but there isn't much to report, just more procedural appeals and delays.
Yes, the legal process has to be allowed to play out, and the courts should not be concerned with politics, but it will have consequences for next year.
Phil, Just a suggestion, and I hope you take it only as that. Please listen to Lawrence O’Donnell on MSNBC a couple days ago. He’s going to answer your question much better than I can. In a nutshell, he said you will never find a single response that you’re looking for regarding this case on the regular news media. It’s up to you to do the research, and when he said you, he meant in the broad term, ‘you the American citizens.’ Furthermore, he said that you need to do this and act as though your life depended on it. Because according to Lawrence, it does. But it’s really powerful to hear him say this because he is talking about how Trump has been trying to get rid of him since 2015. He is one of the only media persons (again this is according to Lawrence, who said he and Rachelle Maddow are two people who do not kowtow to Trump. I have also noticed Jen Psaki lately. But again it’s up to us to spread the information because it’s not going to be disseminated by the mainstream media.
We need to re-run this constantly. We need to send it out to our friends, family. I’m not worried that Trump will get elected. But we’re going to have to do a lot of work. If you get the Washington Post by chance, today’s editorial really lays out how afraid they are that Trump is going to be elected. They are saying he will get the Republican nomination and it’s in their view simply a shoe in because The outliers are doing the third-party vis a vis Robert Kennedy, Jr., the green party woman I guess. Biden is still going to win because Taylor Swift is going to bring her swift days in. There’s a really cute video of her that I watched today as she is on stage, giving her subtle message to her crowd: singing LBG123
Joyce, thanks for eloquently explaining why Trump's options in these two cases failed or are likely to fail.
More particularly, thankyou for leaving unstated the reason why Trump is desperate to put these prosecutions off until after the November 2024 presidential elections; of course, he assumes, first, that he will be the Republican nominee (and that's not a lock at this point) and, second, that he'll be victorious next November...and that's not a lock — it is, however, the very height of arrogance to make such an assumption, and so Trumpian.
Seems quite odd for the appellate court to refer to Trump as president instead of former president and doing it while ruling he was acting as a candidate which is what he is now. What a faux pas to me. How congress could shirk and not impeach puts all of our nation at risk now. Paper tiger- ish to have appellate decisions hold him accountable to fight another day on the same issue.
Thank you, that is the "title" I would have preferred or "Big Losses for Donald" since Mary says he doesn't like being referred to as such, hope for Democracy.
Thanks for the latest uodates, Joyce. The last 3 paragraphs are causing much angst for me. When will this all end?? I just cannot believe this is all happening. How our judicial system seems to jump through flaming hoops to protect certain people accused of crimes (allowing appeal after appeal and other delay tactics) - while other less fortunate people get thrown in jail without bail. Obviously the framers of the constitution didn’t conceive of the possibility that our country would elect a lying conman, mob boss, traitor . Or maybe it did - in Amendment 14, Sect 3. To me, the language is clear that trump should not even be allowed on the ballot.
I think those men tasked with framing the Constitution would turn over in their graves if they saw how "anti-Constitution" such a President/former President could be.
What might be most disturbing to me is that Trump's lawyers seem to spin "legal arguments" out of thin air. They confer with their client and then present, to a court of law, pretty much exactly what he said to them. It's one thing to have Trump out there making up BS arguments about all his persecution, election interference, Biden-backed DOJ charges, and whatever else his addled mind comes up with, but it's quite another for attorneys, who studied law (I assume), passed the bar exam (I assume), and practice law (or some version of it), to present this "in good faith" for Trump. No one is telling him "NO!" That's been the problem with him from the start and his strip-mall attorneys perpetuate it. I understand "defending your client," but this stuff they do is WAY beyond the pale.
Congrats to the judicial system and ‘oh, boohoo’ to the alleged perpetrator(s). Looks like you CANNOT have “it all” if you’re not paying attention to the law and the rules.
At what point is Trump going to be treated as any other citizen arrested for these same charges. If this were any of us, we would be retained in jail without bond.
It’s high time he start being treated like us. He’s received enough preferential treatment!
"Americans need to know how juries of our peers assess the evidence against the former president before we vote in 2024."
And, I would argue, Americans need to see the evidence presented first-hand (not simply how the jury decides). That’s why I’m calling for U.S. v Trump to be televised. In her Nov. 11 post, "Cameras in the Courtroom," Joyce noted that getting Rule 53 that prohibits broadcasting federal trials set aside will be a heavy lift, but not impossible.
To increase our chances, we need to show that the public wants transparency. Please join the 53,000 individuals who have signed my petition calling for the Trump Jan. 6 election interference trial to be televised: https://bit.ly/televise-trump-trial. As the Washington Post says, "democracy dies in darkness." We can't let that happen!
I'm serious about getting this done. Earlier this week I mailed a fourth round of letters to all 28 members of the Judicial Conference and Judge Chutkan with 50,000+ signatures calling for them to set aside Rule 53 to allow cameras in Judge Chutkan's courtroom.
So far, I've received two very lame responses, from clerks for Judge Barron in the First Circuit and Judge Moore for the Federal Circuit. Both clerks wrote that as I have "no cases pending before this Court" they are returning my letters without taking action.
I called Judge Barron's clerk who had difficulty understanding that I was writing to the judge in his role as a member of the U.S. Judicial Conference. I was told to send it to the administrative office of the U.S. Court. In fact, Judge Mauskopf, Secretary to the Judicial Conference who is part of the Administrative Office, has received the four letters I've sent so far.
As you can see, I'm serious about this! Please help spread the word so I can get to my goal of 75,000 names by the end of the month! You can share from the petition home page: https://bit.ly/televise-trump-trial
Not for the first time, I note that if Trump believes that he is not guilty, he should want a trial at the earliest practicable moment, so that his innocence may be pronounced to the voters as soon as possible. After all, he's a candidate for president--he should want to remove the stain on his reputation that criminal charges bring.
Jon, Frumpy doesn’t have a stain. It’s his ‘badge of honor’. He is making a killing on all of his publicity with all of these charges. He’s taking every nickel his sheep 🐑 are sending him. He’s not paid for one thing yet. Not out of his pocket. All of his campaign contributions are moved to his PAC which pays for his lawyers, trips, everything. This scammer has everything the way he wants it. And as long as his lawyers can stall these trials, he’ll make more money.
Now, the flip side of this coin is a lot better. IF this judicial system would stop this preferential treatment of the 🍓🍊🤡💩🤮 then you will see him start getting in these trials in a hurry to try to get out of jail. If they would lock him up in a 9x7 jail cell, he’ll have his lawyers stop this delay crap.
Psst, Daniel: I wasn't really being serious. But let's just keep that between us, OK?
Jon, I have been wondering. First, let me say that I don’t believe gag orders are going to shut DJT up. That being said, I can only imagine what fireworks we might see if he pushes to the point of being put in jail pre-trial.
Where is his nonsense taking us-him?
I sure wish the legal system would move a little more expeditiously.
But then, as Hubbell and others tell us, “It’s up to us.” We have to win at the ballot box. Realizing that the man has not yet won a majority of the popular vote.
True, but that's where the problem of gerrymandering, or as I see it, cheating, comes in. We need a massive turnout of voters to override the crooked efforts of state republicans who know that cheating is their only hope of winning elections in this country.
Right - gerrymandering is a form of election interference!
::-)
Jon, Let me be clear. I may be an emoji Luddite but can you clarify what the two colon represents? Or, is it simply a smile with emphasis?
It's a smile with mis-typing
I think we are limited by... the limited time we have considering teh election date... So if we down want him to delay for ever, we have to do anything to not jail him before the trial. I am sure Jack Smith is the first one to regret the procedures....
I kinda figured that, but I just couldn’t resist commenting anyway. That’s just who I am! I’m going to write my “Thoughts and Opinions”.
I hope you don’t mind!
His "stain", as you put it, in fact is worn as his own *stigmata*, a sign of persecution and bearing-witness to the slings and arrows of his tormentors, and worn proudly before his adoring masses. Better to stand accused than to be found guilty of the myriad of charges against tRump, IMO.
Stains are MAGA Merit Badges
Just ask Santos.
But Jon, what has he going for him except martyrdom? He would lose an election. It is his only chance. What I am terrified about is Washington Post column by Robert Kagan on Dec 1 and Steven Beschloss substack about the WP article, "Soberly Imagining the Future. In just 13 weeks, Republicans will likely lock in a criminal nominee determined to end democracy." Will we be able to stop him then?
Yes, if we work hard.
Nicely stated. But Trump would rather play the system and knows he’s guilty. Just listen to or read all the witnesses or tell all Republican books. This has been a real money maker for many even as they give witness and publicly say they would still vote for him. I don’t believe them for a moment. They are just trying to avoid the threats from extremists while cashing in. It’s insanity with blinders.
Yes, but stupid as he is, he knows he's guilty, he just thinks it doesn't matter because he thinks he is above the law..
The DC Circuit's decision denying dismissal of the civil suit, and including the concurring opinions, is a very long albeit comprehensive document laying out in great detail inter alia the actions of tRump during the entirety of the Jan6 events, demonstrating with legal rigour that his actions were that of Candidate tRump and less that of president tRump, and that - contra Nixon v Fitzgerald - the question of "absolute immunity" does not hold, and that the civil suit by Capital police and some members of Congress move ahead. Furthermore, it seems as though the appellate opinion suggested that further expostulation of the immunity business will be taken up during the civil trial to come, where Defendant tRump will have his "day in court" to argue his position.
Although tRump's lawyers no doubt will appeal at some point to SCOTUS, I don't believe that the Court will take up yet another tRump "immunity" appeal...they are done with that and with him, full stop
I wish I believed that. Their power is great and his reach is apparently massive. Is this mental illness in the damned water?????
SCOTUS has already established its "red line" vis-a-vis tRump, as had the Court back in the Watergate era, IMHO.
Thanks for that reminder. If we had THAT SCOTUS I might have thought of it! Thanks.
Yes. I have written and previously posted a poem (of sorts) recognizing that he (DJT) has made us all sick - his supporters and those who recognize his failed character and behavior
Well, as the Kagen piece laid out better than I ever could, Trump and his fellow travelers are and existential threat. When it is eliminated we can stop being in this maddening heightened state of vigilance. I wish the Republican party, Mitch McConnell and so many others had acted when they had the opportunity, but they didn't.
Yes, it's exhausting.
They never wanted to. They knowingly were enablers from the outset convinced they could stuff the courts and run their long-standing game to break the beast.
Your outlook is that we're all sick, huh? Come on, lay a happy theory on me, friend. I've read your page.
Well Mimi, my point is that we are not able to get beyond the all consuming DJT. Every day we wait to read what has happened, what DJT and his lawyers said, what the courts are doing, not doing, how the GOP is obstructing today per the Trump right wing plan, when to next chess move is made, how we get out the vote. (So much more.) Wouldn’t you say that our energies are absorbed by the nuttiness of this crisis of governance and a childish failure to solve or explore options/ideas crucial to humanity’s well- being; options like gun violence, capitalism’s inequality, increasing hate crimes, outlandish and harmful suppression of freedom for women, gays, transgender people, environmental crises, racism, a drug epidemic, etc?
I’ll have to post the full poem in the morning. As it goes on I ask when and how do we move to healing a nation and working together for the good of one humanity?
Check back tomorrow if I haven’t already left you feeling “this guy’s the nut, not the rest of us.” Alas! The poems concluding thoughts embrace the novel idea that we are all one humanity and would be best served to heal ourselves of the current plague of divisive vitriol. By golly, Mimi, you have put me on the spot with a great post requiring context. See you tomorrow. Absolutely love your challenge.
We are sick, mentally and physically. I'm exhausted. I've been exhausted since 2016. Four years of trump, a pandemic, Jan 6, the GOP, climate change. It numbs my brain. During this time my Dad died and our cat had cancer and had to be euthanized. I am not one of those people that can just completely tune all of this out.
I take breaks from social media and all the stupid when I need to. I try to focus on things that make me happy. I treasure the posts of Joyce's chickens, and laugh when Jeff Tiedrich goes on a hilarious rant. I love my family and my little senior Pekingese rescue dog. This is the new normal so we have to find ways to cope or it will kill us. I don't know how people live in a war zone, and I hope we never find out.
Here Mimi is the original poem:
Dear Friends,
I am not a physician, nor am I a psychiatrist.
What I see here is a political landscape that has made us all sick, anguished and struggling since the election of a figure who has dominated our thoughts and behaviors.
We have made ourselves sick as a nation with our preoccupation with him - whether seen as good or bad.
He has made us sick with leadership that has at every turn divided - us vs. them – with no apparent intention of uniting us for our common good.
He has built upon centuries of injustice and inequality among us, seizing upon our anger, frustrations and disappointments in achieving the American Dream.
In this we all have played a role from time to time with divisive rhetoric and demeaning behaviors as we interact with one another.
We are now faced with a task of making hard, loving choices.
Will we choose to the begin the difficult but urgent process of acknowledging our illness?
Will we choose the arduous work to heal our nation in unity?
Will we choose to value all people who make this nation great - each seeking life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness with economic, social, and spiritual security?
Will we choose to recognize that we are one humanity?
Will we find a path forward to respect, value and listen to one another?
Will we choose to find common ground and move beyond to a higher sense of our shared identity?
I hope you're right Lance.
I’m thinking that “immunity” is a question of law and perhaps not a question for the jury to consider & perhaps the trial court will instruct the jury properly.
I have zero confidence that the majority of the current Supreme Farce are suddenly done with the person willing to stack the court against the best interests of the American people.
My impression is that the majority on the Court is politically aligned with the Defendant but they consider him an arriviste and look down on him. Since he has no power over them, they are free to express their spite with negative opinions. Or simply ignore him, as you suggest.
This doesn't account for Judge Cannon, who is similarly immune from retribution but continues to act as his Florida lawyer. She maybe hoping for a appeals court appointment, or maybe she just feels insecure in a role she's not qualified to fill.
“they are done with that…”. If only…… we can only hope
I’m exhausted… one step forward, two steps back, then one more step back, two steps forward…. thus we end up where we started….
Thank you Joyce. Democracy is on the ballots and the docket. I hope that Democrats really run on the message and truth that Democracy is on the ballot. For the reactionary people who everywhere are responding to tweets, posts on everything “Free Palestine” and ignore the peril of a Democratic loss, the message need to pull from the primary improv rule “yes, and”. That’s it. Anyone wanting to agitate and be an activist for anything resembling liberty for anyone would do best by getting on the Biden train. And that doesn’t mean being a follower but being an activist and advocate, a true advocate, for DEMOCRACY. I absolutely cannot understand or respect the people saying “well, but... he supports Israel” or whatever myopic agenda a person has. And why do people keep forgetting that Kamala Harris is young and intelligent and right behind Biden should his health fail in a second term? Honestly I think it is covert or unconscious sexism and racism. Anyone who isn’t strongly working for a big blue wave to flood the ballot boxes next year is not really wanting humane liberty, just a temporary blood soaked soap box to stand on that will enable the malignant right to perpetuate itself like the cancer it is
Well said!
Hear hear Tina!!
The Presidential Records Act has been mentioned mostly with regard to the classified documents case. However there’s a connection to this case as far as the definition of presidential and personal records. Under PRA, records of president’s political associations and involving his own election as president are personal records, consistent with the view that political/election matters are not official acts.
Trump often misdescribes the PRA as establishing his ownership of his presidential records: I had a perfect right to take them. He is lying. The PRA says the opposite: Presidential records, as defined in the act, belong to the country. President maintains custody of them while in office, but custody is automatically assumed by NARA when his term ends, i.e. 12 noon jan 20.
For NARA guidance on PRA, see
https://www.archives.gov/files/presidential-records-guidance.pdf
The associate Director of the National archives started making requests for classified documents nearly as soon as Trump left the White House. Those documents are controlled with cards that have electronic and handwritten signatures on everyone who touches them. They did not return to the files. Everyone knew what documents were missing and that he had no right to them. Finally after many months of correspondence with, Trump’s attorneys the acting Director of the national archives, received a letter from Biden at her request for a definitive response on whether he needed those documents to run the government, and he answered that indeed, he did. The acting Director of the archives sent Trump’s attorney, a hammer down letter, giving him a deadline, he missed the deadline. They extended it, and then she informed him that she was informing the department of Justice and the FBI that she had made the official request, and he had not complied. Finally, they did comply and that attorney became a witness against Trump. The DOJ reviewed the documents that were finally given to them. Following that review since they knew documents were missing… It’s sort of like going into an IRS audit and you should assume that they already know everything before they start asking questions so given the FBI knew the documents were missing they raided. Jack Smith was hired to run the show… Came from The Hague in Belgium - requested a grand jury. Then he made his indictment. Given that the bar for an indictment has to be above 95% and this is a special case involving a former president, I’m thinking the Jack Smith guess on probability of winning is probably around 99%. Of course, Trump and Company will wine cry and moan about witch hunt and unfair. And we haven’t even started talking about where some of the missing classified documents are at this moment because they were not all returned.
Barbara, Anthony Pratt, a member of Mara Largo is scheduled to testify at the documents trial that Trump showed him documents that were Top Secret. It will be interesting to learn the date of that disclosure. I am wondering if it followed the August 2022 Mara Largo raid.
I have little doubt he has all kinds of things he shouldnt have. I suspect he trashed some things he shouldn’t have during and after presidency.
The hardest thing for me has been to grasp that a POTUS would abrogate our federal laws. And to do it on the level Trump has. I’m sure as well that he has done more than has been published in the indictments: and that is why some of the most prestigious, individuals from business and the military resigned from the cabinet. It’s like justice, Stewart said when asked to describe the test for obscenity: “ I know it when I see it.”
These individuals knew dictatorship in the making when they saw it, and they wouldn’t tolerate participating with him. no when these folks like general, Milley appear on television to warn the country about Trump, he threatens them. And I think Romney made a very clear statement about people still in Congress. I haven’t read his book and I intend to, but he said in an interview that he is spending $5000 a day to protect his family from threats. He believes they are originating from Trump. And he clearly stated that the other members of Congress could not afford to do what he was doing for protection. Truly why we have to work hard, even when we are spent. That’s my case anyway. It’s exhausting, but we will have to live with exhaustion until Election Day November 5, 2024 as we write our emails and blogs, make phone calls, reach out to friends and neighbors and write postcards.
Sorry, not trying to kick the can again: I still am trying to digest that he has documents from security meetings and such for which there is no chain of custody record, no control. I'm an old hippy dippy and honestly, until very recently, and after joining Joyce's Substack did not believe in incarceration unless for a heinous crime such as murder or one who posed a serious threat of injurity or murder to others. I have completely changed my mind after becoming aware of the horrid things Trump has done - but most of all: the threat to our security. He should be jailed as soon as possible in a place with zero outside communication. I know it's been a long haul as the DOJ has been bringing him to trial. But I believe they have dotted the i's and crossed the t's because Jack Smith cannot afford to make a mistake. When he makes the shot it needs to be a bulls eye. So glad Alex Whiting is back from The Hague as his wingman. But today was an eye-opener when you pointed out that there is simply no record for all the documents. I keep asking myself: first, how can this be? and, secondly, how can a president break the security laws of the United States? It truly makes sense that General Milley stated: "Trump is completely unqualified to be president of the United States." I hope voting members of the military are listening to that statement.
Hi Valere! Not ghosting you but i was off line for a while. Yes Trump’s behavior is thoroughly awful. He truly has no concept of the president as servant; he saw it as glorification of himself. Total ignorance of American ideals. A liar, a cheater. Totally unfit for any office. This situation is so far outside normal that the brilliant work and presentation by the Jan 6 committee were necessary to expose it. But all while clock ticked. You are right no one can afford a misstep now.
Trump does seem to be losing control now -- saying more and more totally nutty stuff. It is terrifying and nearly unbelievable
But I think this has been in the headlights for quite a while to sponsor someone besides Trump because the federalist society has been writing about him, publishing about how the 14th amendment should be put in place
I heard from someone who knows a former high level republican operative (I know, ‘my cousin’s in law cousin told me), but a big guy in the world said that the big money is going after Nikki Haley, and they’re putting the money behind her. I have no clue who the big money would be for Republicans. But I guess there’s a lot of people who think they can remake her in a very short time to be somebody the MAGA will vote on because they think the MAGA will say if they can’t vote for Trump and they won’t vote for anyone. And this woman said that the big money thinks Trump is wearing out from the lawsuits. I couldn’t be happier. That’s the latest rumor. It’s probably a rumor but given who she said, and she knows really well I think that it’s plausible. So I’m looking at Nikki Haley turning out like what? Sarah Saunders or whatever her name is, somebody like that instead of herself? I’m just waiting to see if there’s some kind of a fashion change with Nikki, but I think it would be something appealing to MAGA.
It wasnt just classified docs that were missing. Many docs that are not classified are Presidential Records and were noted as missing and sought by the Archives. Wasn’t it the unexpected finding of classified documents in documents returned (eventually) that escalated things.? That was definitely referred to the DOJ as improper holding of classified material violates national security laws rather than or in addition to the PRA. I think that led escalating requests with DOJ and eventually to the subpoena, which specified documents marked classified,neatly avoiding Trump’s silly assertion that he had declassified everything just by thinking about it.
I don’t think it’s quite accurate to say that Biden had to certify he( biden) “couldnt run the government without them”. That would be a very startling assertion! Do you have a source for that phrasing?
On some occasions Biden had to state whether he asserted Executive Privilege over Trump era docs held by the archives because they were sought by Jan 6 committee ( or maybe other entities) I think the archive guidelines i linked to explains how they handle release when executive privilege is an issue.
I think the indictment in the Florida classified docs case contains a good history of Archives discussions with Trump and how it escalated and morphed into the classified docs case. i don’t recall it covered the executive prvilege issues.
The history outlined in the Florida indictment gave a timeline and examples of Walt Nuata moving the boxes, how they were scheduled to go to New Jersey but Melania said they would not fit on the airplane, how 15 boxes were turned over and the FBI raided in August 2022 to gain another sum of boxes (31). It may have indicated that there was discussions with NARA that led to morphing into the classified documents case. But the DOJ/FBI and Pentagon knew from January 20, 2021 when Trump left the White House that he had taken some 400 classified documents with him because the safes that contained the empty files and chain of custody cards showing the time and date of delivery of those 400 files to Trump were the proof. The logs showed the files were removed and never returned. But again, there is a process in the US for gaining documents back. Trump stalled in every imaginable way. I have no clue whether the DOJ/FBI and Pentagon called Debra Wall at NARA and told her about the quandary they were in with the missing 400 classified files. But she was the link (by law) to the documents that could typically be kept for the former presidents to write their histories over a two year period. The difficulty was that not a single president had absconded with 400 classified files on leaving office, including Top Secret eyes only (only 5 individuals in the government are allowed to see these! There was a circus and Trump was the lead performer: he announced at one point that he did not have ANY classified documents because he had looked at them (gazed at them) and 'declassified them.' So it became a tangled mess - and at the end of the day, Debra Wall had to make the determination that Trump did not have 'executive privilege' to keep these documents. So far as the unclassified documents - I'm not sure if she exempted those and told him he could keep them. The illegal removal of documents with classified markings is the only concern of Jack Smith.
Sorry-- one more point. Executive Privilege does not mean Trump could keep something. it means it could be withheld from release to entities outside the executive branch. Ex Presidents or their designated reps can get access to their own presidential records. However those remain property of the united states and ib legal custody of the archives.
When a classified document is marked “five eyes” that does not mean that only five people can see it.
Barbara B., Did I write that? It was an error: 'for eyes' but above Top Secret. There was one document Trump had, and it is not clear that it has been returned, that was marked 'for eyes only.' That's the one. Jack Smith has not clarified and not sure it will be brought up at trial - it may be the map. Sorry I didn't proof well.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes
Post #1: Hi Barbara, Things were escalating before the FBI review of the first return of15 boxes of documents from Mara Largo. The FBI and DOJ had been informed by the Pentagon (and possibly other departments) that 400 classified documents had not been returned to their safes. There were chain of custody records for all of these approximately 400 documents. The DOJ/FBI had expected to find the entire group of some 400 classified documents (Top Secret/eyes only/other classified documents) because Trump's attorney, Evan Corcoran had been assured by Trump that the documents were all in the 15 boxes. Corcoran, however, did not believe Trump, took notes about his behavior and contacted the DOJ after he had a colleague sign that she verified all the classified documents were in the 15 boxes. (The colleague has now been indicted, and she has had to get her own attorney). The DOJ found only 100 classified documents. They then had the FBI raid Mara Largo. I have answered your question beginning in the next paragraph that you didn't think it was accurate for Biden to state he required the documents to run the government. Indeed, he did say that, and I have posted a link in my next response with the link to his letter. NARA had spent 17 months haggling with Trump and his attorneys about the return of documents, including some 400 classified documents. DOJ, FBI and the Pentagon all knew these documents were with Trump because of chain of custody cards. Finally to comply with a Jan 6 committee request, the President, Joe Biden had to demand their return. He did this through a letter from his WH attorney to Ms. Wall at NARA on May 10, 2022. [That letter stated that Biden needed the documents to run the country. He absolutely did need them because they were required for a January 6 hearing request]. That link is in my Post #2. Then the acting director for NARA made the demand for documents on May 10, 2022 (the same day she received Biden's letter) and gave a deadline to Trump that she was turning everything over to the FBI on May 12, 2022. In her May 10, 2022 letter to Trump, Ms. Wall denied Trump's request for Executive Privilege. This denial was necessary to gain the balance of 300 some missing classified documents. Thousands of unclassified documents were missing, but for the purpose of the Florida DOJ case, I am only researching missing classified documents. I have more links and copies of correspondence between NARA and Trump's attorneys - these two links in Post #2 only cover classified documents.
Valere
I do not ever want to see whatever this uncontrollable toddler scribbled on a piece of toilet paper that is now considered a “presidential record”. But I’ll fight to the end to keep it out of Trump’s custody.
If reports are correct it probably went the other way -- reportedly he tore up and flushed documents he didnt like.
Oh my god. Including classified?
👏👏👏👏👏
Thanks, Barbara. Perhaps Trump should take time out of his extremely productive schedule to check that out.
Post #2 to answer Barbara B questions above:
Hi Barbara B, I wrote in-depth a month or so ago about the classified documents that were missing. I included the references and the links to those references for the sources, so anyone could easily use those links to pull up the documents that exist on-line. I have two of these links here – and can find the rest tomorrow. The issue with NARA was they knew in February 2021 that classified documents had left the White House and had spent the entire year of 2021 attempting to regain these classified documents from Trump. The FBI, DOJ and Pentagon knew these documents were missing and were alarmed about the Top Secret and ‘eyes only’ classified documents. At some point during this period, Trump announced that he had ‘declassified’ them by ‘looking at them’ That’s not how it works. There is a series of events to declassify, and some are simply never declassified. Some of the missing documents were so sensitive that only five officials in the entire government had permission to look at them – and that’s why the pressure was on to get them back. By law (since there was no prior precedent the return had to be requested through NARA). NARA had many discussions with Trump’s attorneys. In December 2021, following numerous requests from NARA, Trump’s attorneys affirmed they had found 15 boxes of classified documents. Finally, in January 2022, a full year after the request was issued by NARA, the fifteen boxes of documents were returned to NARA. NARA found some 100 classified documents, many with Top Secret markings and some ‘eyes only.’ Approximately 300 classified documents were still missing. NARA had been informed this by the FBI, DOJ and Pentagon in January 2022. On March 9, 2022 Trump claimed ‘executive privilege.’
President Biden's [from White House attorney Dana Remus, 5-10-2022] letter to the Acting Director of NARA stating that he needed the classified documents specifically to run the country is found in the link below. They were referencing only the some 100 classified documents found in the initial return of 15 boxes of records, not the unclassified documents. These were Top Secret and ‘eyes only.’ Here’s the link to that communication: https://www.archives.gov/files/foia/remus-letter-to-wall-re-trump-03.08.2022-privilege-letter-re-january-6-request.05.10.2022.pdf
The same date that Biden [through attorney Dana Remus] wrote this letter to the Acting Director of NARA, Ms. Wall followed with a letter to Evan Corcoran, Trump's attorney with whom she had been negotiating the return of records. Here is Ms. Wall’s letter from NARA to Evan Corcoran: https://www.archives.gov/files/foia/wall-letter-to-evan-corcoran-re-trump-boxes-05.10.2022.pdf
In this letter she denied Trump’s claim for ‘executive privilege’ and gave him until May 12, 2022 to return the still missing 300 documents.
Recall, NARA had been requesting the missing documents since February 21, 2021. I found some of those written requests and will look for those links tomorrow (they are on another computer – however, they are all available on-line if you wish to search for them). There were more than 300 classified documents at issue and almost 3,000 unclassified documents. Ms. Wall’s letter ‘denied the former president’s “protective” claim of privilege; refused to extend additional time for the return of the documents and informed the Corcoran that she was giving the FBI access to the documents on May 12, 2022. [Corcoron’s colleague signed that the 15 boxes contained all the classified documents and Trump confirmed this to the attorneys the morning before they were turned over to the FBI. The FBI found only 100 classified documents in their review . Since the chain of custody cards that the DOJ/FBI had known about from February 2021 indicated there were some 400 classified documents in Trump’s possession, the FBI knew they had not received all of the missing classified documents]. The FBI proceeded to raid Mara Largo in August 2022 and found 33 boxes containing 100 classified documents including Top Secret, ‘eyes only’ and other classified documents. So, as of August 2022, about 200 additional classified documents, including Top Secret and ‘eyes only’ documents are STILL missing. The FBI and DOJ know what documents are missing. I explained in depth the chain of custody procedure in another post on this substack. But documents leave safes in the Pentagon (or other government agency) and a card on the document is signed, showing who removed it, the date, time and where the document is going. A duplicate card is left in the empty file in the safe. A control log lists the name of the file, number, date of removal and name/department of individual with the file. The files are checked off as ‘returned’ in the log when they are placed back in the files. In Trump’s case, some 200 classified files = are not back in their appropriate files and Jack Smith and his team know exactly what the files are, when they were given to Trump and by whom.
The DOJ has only been concerned with retrieving the classified documents that Trump had removed from the White House. It took time to go through the process of gaining some 200 classified documents back (with another 200 missing: there has never been a precedent of having classified documents removed. Because Trump claimed executive privilege, an entire year was spent as Trump stalled the retrieval).
Trump launched his 2024 presidential campaign early, on November 15, 2022. On November 18, 2022, Merrick Garland announced Jack Smith would be the special counsel to investigate Donald Trump. Jack Smith was at The Hague prosecuting former Kosovo president Hashim Thaci for war crimes including harvesting and selling body parts of those who had opposed him. High level American diplomats including Hilary Clinton had urged Thaci to cooperate with forming a court in Kosovo. Then Vice President Joe Biden wrote to him as well. Hilary and Joe Biden knew Thaci had created a mafia state in Kosovo. He was arrested by Jack Smith’s agents on November 3, 2020, on the steps of his airplane as he was preparing to fly to the US to meet Donald Trump. The 2020 election day was November 3, 2020. Trump knew he had lost. Thaci was scheduled to arrive on the evening of November 3, 2020. Why was Trump meeting with Thaci on the eve of his election loss?
This Remus letter bears on Executive Privilege-(as it says @ the beginning)-whether records of the Executive Branch can/will be shared outside the Executive Branch--not classification. (Executive Privilege can apply to classified or unclassified documents.) As you know, Trump had claimed Executive Privilege to keep some of his records away from Jan 6 Comm (a Legislative-Branch, ie NonExecutive Branch, entity). But the assertion of that privilege ultimately belongs with the current President (Chief Executive) and this is Remus saying that Biden does not want to assert that privilege on this material. It doesn't use the phrase "necessary to run the government", which is not the issue with regard to executive privilege.
The Venn diagram representing the overlaps among Presidential Records, things covered by Executive Privilege, classified things, and (for that matter) Federal Records (which is not much mentioned with regard to Trump as it covers things other than Presidential Records) and the laws that govern them (and access to them) and the agencies who implement, obey, and enforce them would certainly be impressive and somewhat confusing. (it helps to have had a career's worth of experience with some of them.) If's important to keep the legal domains and authorities straight. NARA was initially most concerned with Presidential Records (for which they have custody on behalf of the United States who (per PRA) owns them once a presidency ends. They noticed things missing -- believe two publicly famous were the Alabama Hurricane Sharpie diagram and Kim Jong Uns's "love letters."
Tips of the iceberg. They also noticed the mishandling of classified docs returned with larger sets of Presidential Records. the Archives can, of course, handle and preserve classified records, but no one, including them, would properly find them mixed randomly in shipments not handled as classified--that's just gross evidence of mishandling.
Your description on handling of classified documents (with signature cads recording access ) may well apply to some docs in some situations -- like going to the EOP, but is absolutely not universal.
Hi Barbara, This is more of a 'why' did Trump take the documents question, but do you think Trump understood classified documents did not land on his desk without a record of where/when they had left a safe and he could thus walk off with them without anyone knowing? (I realize there is no way of knowing that Trump 'thought' but remember, this is the guy who had his 30 year old body guy, Johnny McKentree, write an exec order to bring back thousands of troops from the Mideast, Africa and Germany, and had it hand-delivered to the Secretary of Defense without going through a single chain of command). I am wondering how he left the White House with classified documents and according to the DOJ, some 200 are missing. I know the logistics seem to have been in trucks because pictures are published showing boxes sitting around. But 'how' and executive office did not have a single person who understood you could not box up Top Secret (and special designations), other classified documents, and take them away to Mara Largo. Trump was informed nearly immediately on leaving office in January 2021 that he needed to return documents (NARA may have noticed the sharpie pen Alabama map was among those because Joe Biden formed a Task Force in 2021 to look at how Trump, or staff at his direction, went directly to two top NOAA administrators and threatened them with their jobs if they did not rewrite the map for the Dorian alert they had put out to include Alabama. It's against the law to alter weather maps once they have been issued. The Task Force ended up including many agencies and the final report issued reaffirmed that presidents cannot interfere in NOAA and such (and of course it violates the law if they do. Trump has not been charged for that violation - not sure if the two employees at NOAA lost their jobs or were forced to resign). The sharpie pen Alabama map and the Kim Jung Un letters were returned a year later, in the fifteen boxes of documents returned in January 2022 along with the Top Secret compartmentalized documents. I'm not sure the document that was compartmentalized allowing just five individuals to see was included or if Trump has it still - but it was removed in the lot he took with him on January 21, 2021 (and those were the fifteen boxes that Trump had told Corcoran contained 'everything' and for which Corcoran had his colleague sign off to the FBI). So NARA and departments with missing classified documents were concerned before January 2022 - they had a long back and forth - letters to that effect are on-line. The May 10, 2022 letter is not the only letter that NARA has posted. Corcoron suspected everything was not included and did not sign off himself to the FBI, but ended up going nearly immediately to the DOJ to become a witness for them. The attorney from Corcoran's office who signed has spoken with Jack Smith and has had to get her own attorney to defend. The antennas at NARA were up throughout 2021 as NARA attempted to get the documents from Trump.
Trump was trying to throw a wrench into returning documents before he returned a single document of those he had taken to Mara Largo. He stalled the NARA requests throughout 2021 with his back and forth with the Acting Director of NARA. Those letters are posted on line - I recall one attorney was Corcoran, now a witness for the DOJ, but I think there was another one. Trump was questioned by his own attorneys on whether there were still missing documents not included with the 15 boxes with the mixed classified and nonclassified documents that Corcoron and colleague gave to the FBI. He hid over 100 of those. The DOJ gave the subpoena to Trump's attorneys soTrump knew the FBI had a planned raid. Trump's attorneys warned him how serious the subpoena was and how different it was from NARAs many requests. So he knew he had lied to his own attorneys, hid documents at Mara Largo, took some to New Jersey, and then claimed executive privilege in March 2022. I thought the scenario for Ms. Wall, Acting Dir at NARA to ultimately make the decision that Trump could not have executive privilege went like this: the 15 boxes were given to NARA by the FBI in January 2022 (a year after the haggle for the return had begun). NARA discovered the mixed in Top Secret and other and notified the DOJ. DOJ knew Ms. Wall at NARA was continuing to try to get other documents from Trump even though he had told his attorneys 'this is all there is' meaning the 15 boxes. So Ms. Wall had information that 'this was not all that was missing.' In response to the further press from NARA, Trump asserted executive privilege in March 2022. I assume the DOJ let Biden know this because he wrote a letter to Ms. Wall through his White House counsel instructing her it was her decision to make whether Trump had exec privilege. That was not really a choice at all - Trump had no right at all to those documents. I thought Biden needed to write to Ms. Wall as a formality to keep the government running and to move up the time-line to get the documents back so Trump could not continue to delay. And it was a formal request to allow the FBI to inspect the documents Trump had returned to NARA. Since they had Top Secret compartmentalized documents that represent the governments most closely guarded secrets, the DOJ thought taking them represented criminal activity. I do agree with you that the protocol for transferring documents is not the same for all agencies. There is a protocol for the many thousands of well educated, diligent employees, including the Executive Branch and civil service employees who are career and stay through as presidencies change and then there was Trump, grabbing documents from briefings to 'take upstairs with him.' How silly of me to think that a protocol would be followed for the most sensitive documents? I truly thought that was the case when I wrote the first post about Trump having the classified documents - I had assumed a regular protocol had been followed. Recalling now that people resigned over this very infraction, including John Bolten. He was not a favorite of all but he talked about how careless Trump was. Thank you for your clarifications. We must win in 2024💙
Trump’s staff knew from the beginning of his presidency that they would have to send not only classified docs but presidential records as well and they needed to keep all this stuff straight Trump never instituted anything like disciplined document management in his office. Some people (kelly for sure) understood it and tried but he just had no concrpt that he coukdn’t ( and actually shouldnt )do anything he felt like.
Read the NARAGuidsnce to new administrations then think of his boxes with golf dhirts,newspapers, classified docs all mixed up together.
The fact is that the President is the boss of all this stuff and these are all promulgated on his behalf.
It’s part of Trump’s personality that he simply doesnt think rules ( or laws, sigh) apply to him. He doesn’t care that he has documents somebody thinks he shouldnt have. If called on it he’ll hide them or trash them or lie and ssy he doesnt have any.
Early in my career my wonderful boss (AF Colonel) taught me the difference between a rule and a law. Them that make the rules can break the rules. Laws -- umm, no. Of course many rules are made to help people not break the laws.
Re: five eyes. You have said several times that there were documents classified so highly only five people could see them. Trying to imagine why you think that and the only thing i could think of was the references to docs marked five eyes which does NOT mean that but sounds like it does to someone who never heard of five eyes. You seem to be trying hard to research and describe things accurately which is really hard from the scattershot information available and i was honestly just trying to steer you gently away from a wrong interpretation.
ps: it was truly an orderly and atrocious. I’m less concerned about how chaotic the records were thrown around than I am about the missing ones. But I think the Australian billionaire is going to testify about what he saw on a map. Trump is trying to discredit him and call him a liar and crazy. But I don’t think this guy is threatened by Trump. So if Trump calls somebody down tomorrow, Lago, it gives them the typical three choices to shut up and support me: number one you can make a lot of money. (the billionaire isn’t going to care about that.), number two you can go swim with the sharks; number three you can pull an Epstein. I just don’t think the billionaire is threatened and I think he’s going to go ahead and testify. Trump is threatening the wrong person. I guess if I was really worried I’d make a lot of money but I just think the guy is going to go ahead and testify. March 4 2024 is the trial date and it will go on for five or six weeks with prosecution putting on witnesses first. Super Tuesday is March 5, 2024, and while everyone else is trotting around campaigning, Trump’s going to be in court.
I think he’s going to jail and he should.
Chaotic is how things get lost
I want him @ Gitmo.
Hi Barbara B.,
I am no expert at all, and I think you’ve had a much longer career. Mine was not long, and it was command post pentagon. If I said five eyes, that was a mistake, because I believe I said, or meant to say “eyes only..” And that meant five people: POTUS, SecDef, my 4 star, no colonels in the office - and I was not allowed to see ‘eyes only’. I do not know for certain if there were two other people because I don’t know who those two others were or would be I just knew the ones that were on our list. I was never allowed to see anything like that because my understanding was it was above top-secret, and I was not cleared. I’m just astonished at how cavalier Trump has been laws or no laws, rules, or rules. He has no respect. And that is why General Milley said he should never ever be president. So when I heard the documents had eyes only that was my assumption from that career. And actually so few years that one couldn’t call it a career. It was a job on the way to a career. But I do recall the carefulness, and how those documents and envelopes were handled. I don’t think I ever did any Internet searching on ‘eyes only.’ I think that came from one of the interviews perhaps MSNBC after the FBI raid my thought then was “oh oh” and I hope those were files that had stuff in them. I think you do have a career or did have a career. I had an experience for a few years, and I honored the laws and the rules. I’ve written about how egregious it is that Trump could take these kinds of documents, and have them stored openly not even locked. I’m sure a lot of people - with a lot more information than I have or ever will have - have raised their eyebrows over this. I think Jack Smith is raising his eyebrows. Somewhere I read, or understood that he wasn’t including some of these documents in his trial, because they were so sensitive. I don’t know if that’s on the Internet or not, but it certainly made sense to me at the time. However, at that time, I had no idea that there were Top Secret maps being shown to non cleared individuals.
I’m hoping everything is returned. Right now I think there are about 200 classified documents that have come back. Again, if I said five eyes, I’m not sure what I could’ve been thinking. But I clearly know what I was thinking, when I said ‘eyes only.’ And that surely did not mean my eyes.
Another one of trumps problems is that he is convinced he knows more than the generals ,doctors, race stewards, meteorologists whatever. Your example of having johnny Mcentee draft that thing without getting advice is a perfect example. Another horrible prospect fot another term where his loyalists just salute and do whatever dumb thing he trlls them.
I suppose the ONLY thing trump is really good at is stalling when the odds are against him. This is a really bad precedent that shows anyone with the ability to pay their attorneys for endless appeals can tie up the courts for a very long time. We are all flabbergasted by these delays and need the hammer to fall on him at least once! Please!
In other words, justice moves at the speed with which a defendant can open his wallet and pay his lawyers.
He has paid the most recent tribe $3 Million in advance.
You describe the law we are all under in America. All of us being treated the same has been a joke for a long long time. Nevertheless I am impressed by the steadfastness of the many judges who have presided over so many of the Muffin's frivolous court actions, so far.
Thanks for walking us through this. I’m definitely smarter today! 🙏🏼
We are all smarter today after reading one of the Professors 'best ever' memos.
Bryan. I agree with you! I feel a little smarter each time I read one of her posts. The one today was especially "note-worthy" --- and deserving of a gold star. (Pardon my flashback to elementary school decades of ago, when the teachers would put stars at the top of our papers and tests, each color star representing the rating. Gold was, of course, the best!)
Dianne, definitely gold star work.
Thanks Joyce. Enjoy chicken, cat, dog and family time now.
You've more than earned it.
That's for sure!
I think a lot of people are thinking that crimes committed more than three years ago and still not prosecuted hardly count as speedy. It would be useful to have an explanation as to why this is taking so long.
Well, to begin with, the crimes were not charged immediately. They had to be investigated and Trump and his co-conspirators put every obstacle in the way of investigators. Then, too, for quite a while it seemed like the DOJ was not moving as aggressively as it should have. That may not have been true--it may be a reason why Jack Smith was able to move as rapidly as he did--but we'll need to wait until the inside dope is available to see which side is right on that one.
Exactly. Trump stalled by refusing to comply with multiple requests from the acting Director of the national archives. Finally, he needed to be forced to comply when she wrote him a letter and told him she had given her correspondence to the DOJ and the FBI and that followed a letter from Biden saying he needed those documents to run the country. Within two months. The DOJ did their proper review of the documents they were given, which were missing documents according to government file cards. This review took two months, which was conducted according to the federal law. Trump knew all along that the DOJ and the FBI were involved and he knew a raid was coming.
During this time frame Trump made an unscheduled trip to Mara Lardo from New Jersey. The trial will show whether new documents suddenly showed up in the unsecured bathroom where top-secret eyes only documents were found during the FBI raid. Within two months of this raid, Jack Smith was hired. But don’t forget Trump announced his presidential campaign three days before Jack Smith’s official appointment was announced. Indeed, an entire investigation was conducted by Merrick Garland and company prior to Jack Smith arriving. The minute Jack Smith got to Washington DC. He was able to call for a grand jury investigation. My sense is that some of the people who are posting and I don’t know for sure, because not many critics of Merrick garland are attorneys; but it’s a complicated case. And most folks haven’t had complicated cases involving civil and criminal. They can take a lot of time and I’m just amazed that it’s going as quickly as it is. I’ve been involved in those kinds of cases but nothing at this level. I’m so impressed with our prosecutors. Nothing but praise for them. They are dealing with a multiple headed snake. And they’re doing a fabulous job. I expect when win, win and win and add to that win on prosecuting Steve Bannon by Manhattan, district attorney Alvin Bragg.
I understand all that, but if there is concern as to why none of this is hurting Trump, this is why. The public is probably only dimly aware that all of this is happening. This is not the fault of the media, the stories are being dutifully reported, but there isn't much to report, just more procedural appeals and delays.
Yes, the legal process has to be allowed to play out, and the courts should not be concerned with politics, but it will have consequences for next year.
Phil, Just a suggestion, and I hope you take it only as that. Please listen to Lawrence O’Donnell on MSNBC a couple days ago. He’s going to answer your question much better than I can. In a nutshell, he said you will never find a single response that you’re looking for regarding this case on the regular news media. It’s up to you to do the research, and when he said you, he meant in the broad term, ‘you the American citizens.’ Furthermore, he said that you need to do this and act as though your life depended on it. Because according to Lawrence, it does. But it’s really powerful to hear him say this because he is talking about how Trump has been trying to get rid of him since 2015. He is one of the only media persons (again this is according to Lawrence, who said he and Rachelle Maddow are two people who do not kowtow to Trump. I have also noticed Jen Psaki lately. But again it’s up to us to spread the information because it’s not going to be disseminated by the mainstream media.
I think this is the O'Donnell piece:
https://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/watch/lawrence-media-still-not-ready-to-cover-trump-after-years-of-his-lies-199042117756
Yes. Exactly. Thank you CathyP💙
And Taylor and her Swifties are who we need to Vote: ) we’re all in this together, so HUGS to Taylor💙
We need to re-run this constantly. We need to send it out to our friends, family. I’m not worried that Trump will get elected. But we’re going to have to do a lot of work. If you get the Washington Post by chance, today’s editorial really lays out how afraid they are that Trump is going to be elected. They are saying he will get the Republican nomination and it’s in their view simply a shoe in because The outliers are doing the third-party vis a vis Robert Kennedy, Jr., the green party woman I guess. Biden is still going to win because Taylor Swift is going to bring her swift days in. There’s a really cute video of her that I watched today as she is on stage, giving her subtle message to her crowd: singing LBG123
Joyce, thanks for eloquently explaining why Trump's options in these two cases failed or are likely to fail.
More particularly, thankyou for leaving unstated the reason why Trump is desperate to put these prosecutions off until after the November 2024 presidential elections; of course, he assumes, first, that he will be the Republican nominee (and that's not a lock at this point) and, second, that he'll be victorious next November...and that's not a lock — it is, however, the very height of arrogance to make such an assumption, and so Trumpian.
Thanks for being in this with us.
Seems quite odd for the appellate court to refer to Trump as president instead of former president and doing it while ruling he was acting as a candidate which is what he is now. What a faux pas to me. How congress could shirk and not impeach puts all of our nation at risk now. Paper tiger- ish to have appellate decisions hold him accountable to fight another day on the same issue.
Losses for Trump = Wins for America.
Thank you, that is the "title" I would have preferred or "Big Losses for Donald" since Mary says he doesn't like being referred to as such, hope for Democracy.
Thanks for the latest uodates, Joyce. The last 3 paragraphs are causing much angst for me. When will this all end?? I just cannot believe this is all happening. How our judicial system seems to jump through flaming hoops to protect certain people accused of crimes (allowing appeal after appeal and other delay tactics) - while other less fortunate people get thrown in jail without bail. Obviously the framers of the constitution didn’t conceive of the possibility that our country would elect a lying conman, mob boss, traitor . Or maybe it did - in Amendment 14, Sect 3. To me, the language is clear that trump should not even be allowed on the ballot.
I feel the same, Kathleen.
I think those men tasked with framing the Constitution would turn over in their graves if they saw how "anti-Constitution" such a President/former President could be.
What might be most disturbing to me is that Trump's lawyers seem to spin "legal arguments" out of thin air. They confer with their client and then present, to a court of law, pretty much exactly what he said to them. It's one thing to have Trump out there making up BS arguments about all his persecution, election interference, Biden-backed DOJ charges, and whatever else his addled mind comes up with, but it's quite another for attorneys, who studied law (I assume), passed the bar exam (I assume), and practice law (or some version of it), to present this "in good faith" for Trump. No one is telling him "NO!" That's been the problem with him from the start and his strip-mall attorneys perpetuate it. I understand "defending your client," but this stuff they do is WAY beyond the pale.
Congrats to the judicial system and ‘oh, boohoo’ to the alleged perpetrator(s). Looks like you CANNOT have “it all” if you’re not paying attention to the law and the rules.
At what point is Trump going to be treated as any other citizen arrested for these same charges. If this were any of us, we would be retained in jail without bond.
It’s high time he start being treated like us. He’s received enough preferential treatment!
"Americans need to know how juries of our peers assess the evidence against the former president before we vote in 2024."
And, I would argue, Americans need to see the evidence presented first-hand (not simply how the jury decides). That’s why I’m calling for U.S. v Trump to be televised. In her Nov. 11 post, "Cameras in the Courtroom," Joyce noted that getting Rule 53 that prohibits broadcasting federal trials set aside will be a heavy lift, but not impossible.
To increase our chances, we need to show that the public wants transparency. Please join the 53,000 individuals who have signed my petition calling for the Trump Jan. 6 election interference trial to be televised: https://bit.ly/televise-trump-trial. As the Washington Post says, "democracy dies in darkness." We can't let that happen!
I'm serious about getting this done. Earlier this week I mailed a fourth round of letters to all 28 members of the Judicial Conference and Judge Chutkan with 50,000+ signatures calling for them to set aside Rule 53 to allow cameras in Judge Chutkan's courtroom.
But will we get transparency or the grandstanding and performative a**holery that is so dear to the MAGA crowd? We know Trump loves the spotlight.
But this will be the first time ever where Trump isn’t in control. It’s judge chutkan’s courtroom. She’ll be in charge.
I’m concerned about the grandstanding should the trial become televised. He’s going to do it anyway outside the court.
Jonathan, did any of them respond yet? If they do, please let Joyce and all of us know. Thanks!
So far, I've received two very lame responses, from clerks for Judge Barron in the First Circuit and Judge Moore for the Federal Circuit. Both clerks wrote that as I have "no cases pending before this Court" they are returning my letters without taking action.
I called Judge Barron's clerk who had difficulty understanding that I was writing to the judge in his role as a member of the U.S. Judicial Conference. I was told to send it to the administrative office of the U.S. Court. In fact, Judge Mauskopf, Secretary to the Judicial Conference who is part of the Administrative Office, has received the four letters I've sent so far.
As you can see, I'm serious about this! Please help spread the word so I can get to my goal of 75,000 names by the end of the month! You can share from the petition home page: https://bit.ly/televise-trump-trial
Jonathan,
I'm going to go to that website when I finish reading my emails. Thanks for passing this on!