Early on in the Trump administration, it was popular to use the metaphor of frogs being boiled. The idea was that people didn’t perceive the seriousness of the threat Trump posed because, like frogs who are put into a pot of cold water with the temperature raised gradually, the danger wouldn’t be perceived until it was too late. Frogs, boiled.
This is personal. I lost half my family in the Holocaust. Exactly my sentiment: I will not get boiled. Brandy Lee explicitly told us this years ago. Some of us listened. As Americans, every single non-fascist, it is our responsibility to point at and call out the fascists in our government. The way we non-fascists do not get boiled is to NOT give the enablers and cowards who hover around the fascists a pass. The cowards and enablers are just as complicit.
David Corn, in his book: American Psychosis: A Historical Investigation of How the Republican Party Went Crazy, spells out the embedded relationship with Nazis/fascists in the GOP since the 1950s.
Just checked about the condition of a used book. I like Corn, so thanks!
I've read, "The Twilight of Democracy - The Seductive Lure of Authoritarianism," by Applebaum. I kept looking for the future as in a book that answered questions - like why and the threads between dictatorships and crumbling democracies. I found a bunch of answers in that book where I didn't get it in other books (one by Gessan on autocracy and the other, "On Tyranny," by Schneider).
Fascinated by this discussion. I have been trying to connect the dots about the roots of this threat and focused on 1950 onward and saw threads to slavery and civil war. To get a better picture I will read Applebaum and Corn. I want to understand how US 20th century proponents of authoritarianism got their influences.
Goes back earlier than that. Check out Rachel Maddow's podcast "Ultra," about how Republicans conspired directly with actual German Nazis to sabotage America before the war through the America First Movement. There was even a sedition trial of the traitors in 1944, which was sabotaged by Republican members of Congress! As an historian of WW2, I thought I was familiar with the period, but this is a story I'd never heard before. History we need to learn.
Yes. Her podcasts are riveting. I heard someone say yesterday that our law’s didn’t hold up, but they were all voted out of office, so voting worked. ( just beginning to listen to the trail)
You triggered my thinking about how “Black Lives Matter” coughed up much needed discussion of pre and post Civil War history. I’m not holding my breath, but could there be a similar independent and mass media awakening to put more heft into discussing this WWII history? It seems that the war in Ukraine could open this door wider. Would like to hear your opinion on this.
It began in the 1930s including enablers in our Congress who were complicit in the fascist movement. Listen to Rachel Maddow’s podcast ULTRA, the #1 podcast i the world.
Well i just ordered the book you suggested and realized i ordered the summary. Maybe that is for the best. Thank you for the suggestion. Oy, life. If i want more i will get the whole book. Thank you.
I heard stories from friends whose parents escaped Nazi Germany. I heard of the rapes by Russian soldiers during one friend's parents journey out of Germany (I am part Russian). I clearly remember the tattoo on an Aunt's arm I saw decades ago who escaped and it's engrained in my memory which is now failing a bit. I worked with someone who had been experimented on by Mengele and it showed in her actions (no wonder). I've never forgotten about Japanese internment and knew someone at work who was interned with her parents. So, with that gore, I agree we have to call it out. The fear is being exposed and hurt (why we won't put bumper stickers on our car and why I didn't post something obvious this year about fascism on our lawn with our candidate signs). I added a security camera facing a major side of our property.
When the malignant narcissist (ML) was running (for his life), I revisited the rise of hitler and saw no difference except the ML has escaped from going to jail (yet and may not). People argued against it, but I tend to be ahead of the times (sometimes :) pat, pat) but the comparison was real in example after example after example. I obviously am sorry about your loss and agree.
One of the things that Hitler did before he started gathering people and murdering them was he took all guns.
A lot of German people said they were not aware of the murders or concentration camps.
Let us wake up Americans and let them know to join the Southern Law Center. They have exposed all the organizations that are planning to attack Americans. Each State now has Neo-Nazis Organizations. This is unacceptable. Write President Biden. Tell him, all hands on deck.
I just forwarded a copy of today's letter to my postcard group, which meets every Tuesday morning. We will be sending postcards to all our Republican elected officials here in the gerrymandered state of Wisconsin.
This is a really good idea. Making sure elected officials know how many people feel strongly about this is an important way for them to hear our voices.
However, as I now live in Arizona, I find I’ve been fed a lie by our representative who said she was a democrat and seemed to be fighting for us (cards and all). We supported her speeches and voted for her. Then, as soon as she was elected she announced that she was not a democrat anymore and she announced she would vote for whatever she believed in. How do we fight this? How?
One of my "jobs" for our postcard group is writing letters to the editor, and I was actually thinking about this. Just sent one on our 163 year old abortion law, and finished another one on threats to Social Security by Republicans.
Go to “postcardstovoters” on the web. It will tell you how it works. It is well organized. Good for you! My daughter and I wrote 85 post cards for Midterm.
Trump persists in stepping on the accelerator as the only remedy to feed his unsatiable grab for power and solve his legal problems. His current rant is a naked, full-throated bellow demanding a complete coup d'état. As long as Trump maintains the loyalty of his MAGA base, his GOP colleagues will remain weak kneed and spineless.
As Trump turns up the heat, the short game becomes more imperative. The DOJ is now more compelled than ever to press charges of insurrection as Trump lays out a menu of evidence.
How do we send Joyce's article to the DOJ? I'm not a computer person. Anyone know? Can someone do that? The DOJ needs all the help they can get. They can not keep up with all the insanity.
What can the DOJ do other than note what he said and be aware? It shows his state of mind now, but can it be considered as evidence of his state of mind leading up to 1/6?
Although I am not a lawyer, I wonder if the testimony by Mark Meadows, Pat Cippollone and other high ranking inner circle officials testify under oath to the 1/6 Committee that Trump acknowledged that he lost the election, his continued spreading of the lie in the context of justifying an insurrection would constitute a crime? However, that could just be wishful thinking.
If they testified that way (and did not take the 5th), this probably would be evidence of his state of mind. But it is just one fact, and not enough to show his intent to foment an insurrection. The lying alone is not enough.
My question is a simple one. In lieu of Trump’s organizing of January 6th and his recent statement about suspending our Constitution, how is he allowed to run for President according to the 14th amendment?
That has come up, in reference not only to Trump but to others (including current officeholders) who clearly aided and abetted the 1/6 insurrection. My hunch is that some sort of conviction is necessary before the 14th would apply, but IANAL and Joyce is, so I'll leave it to her and other constitutional adepts in the group.
Outstanding essay. We took the threat to democracy presented by the many unsuitable midterm candidates as a call to action, and we responded. Yesterday's demand for the end of American democracy by the increasingly deranged and desperate former guy is another call to action, perhaps an even more urgent one. If we responded to the former, we can certainly respond, perhaps with even more energy, to the latter.
I live in a very blue state (that nevertheless has a full measure of trumpistas, election deniers, Proud Boys wanna-bes, and other assorted crazies). I'd suggest that in addition to what JV suggests, we also contact our D congresscritters and demand not only their forceful, unequivocal repudiation of the former guy's fascist rant but also their ongoing repetition of the message: that the rant is a direct threat to democracy, and politicians who will not strongly oppose that threat are themselves threats to our democracy. Don't just put out a single press release or do a single interview. Make it a road show, an ongoing outgoing message, that the public hears over and over again. Even the most compelling point or repudiation is quickly lost in the noise and BS that constantly floods the zone, as one notorious anti-democratic convicted felon put it. The repetition is key to getting the broader audience to take in the message.
I know, the White House has already put out a surprisingly strong and blunt repudiation. That's good. It's no reason every single other representative of the people, all of whom have sworn to defend the Constitution, cannot and should not speak up loudly, now, forcefully, and continually, until the fascist threat has been eliminated.
I don't think it's "open to a benign interpretation," but I've already had a couple of online discussions with well-meaning people who believe that this wasn't a direct threat and/or excuse Trump because there's no logic in what he says. I respond (1) that I see no "if" in his words, so he's effectively saying that these things *should* happen, and (2) what he says may not be logical, but there's a coherence to it, and it's consistent with previous (what's the best word here?) utterings. Read or listen to the speeches of history's most dangerous demagogues. They aren't big on logic as we understand it, but they sure were effective.
Many of us are struggling to understand just how much trouble we're in, and even resisting that understanding. What I understand better and better is why so often, in so many situations, people wait till it's too late to act and only later do the survivors look back and say "We should have known."
Dec 4, 2022·edited Dec 4, 2022Liked by Joyce Vance
This is such an important column that I upgraded to "paid" just to be able to comment--and of course because of all the amazing work you do here.
One downside to having recently self-sorted, trading representation by Vicky Hartzler, Josh Hawley and Roy Blunt for Ilhan Omar, Amy Klobuchar and Tina Smith, is that I no longer have Republicans to call on these issues.
I tried, though--I went to Vicky Hartzler's website this morning to send an email asking that question, and discovered that she is no longer accepting constituent emails. Instead, she refers consitituents to Josh Hawley! Now, she is leaving office in a month, and I'm sure there has to be a transition period, but she is still voting, potentially on things like the Electoral Count Act, and as far as I know, taxpayers are still paying her staff. Is this kind of thing typical for a retiring Congressperson? Is it unreasonable to anticipate that someone would still be looking at her emails? Over a year ago, she changed her phone message to say, "if you wish to express an opinion on legislation or an issue, please visit our website at...."
The question you raise is an interesting one - how do people in blue states support the red state folks. We obviously have the flip side of that here in Alabama—one of the things we did was to write voter postcards and help with election oversight in Georgia, since things here were decided in the primaries. I'd like to explore your question more, interested in seeing what ideas other people have.
Madison Cawthorn's constituents have been without representation since last spring when he lost the primary. It was reported that he closed up his office and fired his staff. The boy was always in it for himself. Nowadays he's telling men to stop being "pussies." Ironic.
Yes! I posted on Twitter to Sen Cruz and Sen Cornyn. They have never responded to my hundreds of calls, emails, and tweets from 2015 on -- betting I won’t get a response today, but I’ll keep pushing. I also tweeted this column!
Joyce is totally correct here. A full court press of the GOP is called for. Even the persons who answer the phones for their undemocratic GOP office holders will take note— believe it or not— though they probably will remain silent publicly…
I imagine most Republicans will try like hell not to go on the record, not because they agree with the former president, but because when your opponent is shooting himself in the foot, don’t get in his way - or thereabouts. They know he’s going down, but if they try and give him a shove, they’ll lose his voters.
Maybe I’m giving the disgraced ex-president too much credit, knowing full well his lack of subtlety of thought and precise language. But I noticed he wasn’t calling for the suspension, ignoring , or altering of our Constitution. He called for its TERMINATION. That’s a horse of a different color. I’m sure Trump will ride it into the ground.
Joyce what you have written are the modern day version of the lanterns and the ringing bells of the Old North Church. It’s up to all of us to take action and I for one will. Where I live my Governor and Senators and Congress man are all Democrats but the have a voice that everyone can hear. No matter who it is they must be petitioned to speak. Thanks for this!
We live in the growing fascist state of Florida. I have contacted my two Senators Rubio and Scott and our frightening governor de Santis and received rote responses that are completely unresponsive to my questions. I support our local and state Democratic party but writing to Republicans is less than effective. Thank you Joyce Vance for all you do.
This is personal. I lost half my family in the Holocaust. Exactly my sentiment: I will not get boiled. Brandy Lee explicitly told us this years ago. Some of us listened. As Americans, every single non-fascist, it is our responsibility to point at and call out the fascists in our government. The way we non-fascists do not get boiled is to NOT give the enablers and cowards who hover around the fascists a pass. The cowards and enablers are just as complicit.
David Corn, in his book: American Psychosis: A Historical Investigation of How the Republican Party Went Crazy, spells out the embedded relationship with Nazis/fascists in the GOP since the 1950s.
Just checked about the condition of a used book. I like Corn, so thanks!
I've read, "The Twilight of Democracy - The Seductive Lure of Authoritarianism," by Applebaum. I kept looking for the future as in a book that answered questions - like why and the threads between dictatorships and crumbling democracies. I found a bunch of answers in that book where I didn't get it in other books (one by Gessan on autocracy and the other, "On Tyranny," by Schneider).
I like Anne Applebaum's book very much. Also the Death of Truth by Michiko Kakutani, and so many others!
More thanks Joyce, love the “Boil the Frogs 🐸 “ a little humor helps the irritating former guy!
Fascinated by this discussion. I have been trying to connect the dots about the roots of this threat and focused on 1950 onward and saw threads to slavery and civil war. To get a better picture I will read Applebaum and Corn. I want to understand how US 20th century proponents of authoritarianism got their influences.
Goes back earlier than that. Check out Rachel Maddow's podcast "Ultra," about how Republicans conspired directly with actual German Nazis to sabotage America before the war through the America First Movement. There was even a sedition trial of the traitors in 1944, which was sabotaged by Republican members of Congress! As an historian of WW2, I thought I was familiar with the period, but this is a story I'd never heard before. History we need to learn.
Rachel’s podcast Ultra is #1 in the world. Her in depth reporting is beyond measure❤️
Yes. Her podcasts are riveting. I heard someone say yesterday that our law’s didn’t hold up, but they were all voted out of office, so voting worked. ( just beginning to listen to the trail)
You triggered my thinking about how “Black Lives Matter” coughed up much needed discussion of pre and post Civil War history. I’m not holding my breath, but could there be a similar independent and mass media awakening to put more heft into discussing this WWII history? It seems that the war in Ukraine could open this door wider. Would like to hear your opinion on this.
It began in the 1930s including enablers in our Congress who were complicit in the fascist movement. Listen to Rachel Maddow’s podcast ULTRA, the #1 podcast i the world.
Well i just ordered the book you suggested and realized i ordered the summary. Maybe that is for the best. Thank you for the suggestion. Oy, life. If i want more i will get the whole book. Thank you.
I heard stories from friends whose parents escaped Nazi Germany. I heard of the rapes by Russian soldiers during one friend's parents journey out of Germany (I am part Russian). I clearly remember the tattoo on an Aunt's arm I saw decades ago who escaped and it's engrained in my memory which is now failing a bit. I worked with someone who had been experimented on by Mengele and it showed in her actions (no wonder). I've never forgotten about Japanese internment and knew someone at work who was interned with her parents. So, with that gore, I agree we have to call it out. The fear is being exposed and hurt (why we won't put bumper stickers on our car and why I didn't post something obvious this year about fascism on our lawn with our candidate signs). I added a security camera facing a major side of our property.
When the malignant narcissist (ML) was running (for his life), I revisited the rise of hitler and saw no difference except the ML has escaped from going to jail (yet and may not). People argued against it, but I tend to be ahead of the times (sometimes :) pat, pat) but the comparison was real in example after example after example. I obviously am sorry about your loss and agree.
Never again means never again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Never_again No second Holocaust of Jews, never again any form of genocide.
One of the things that Hitler did before he started gathering people and murdering them was he took all guns.
A lot of German people said they were not aware of the murders or concentration camps.
Let us wake up Americans and let them know to join the Southern Law Center. They have exposed all the organizations that are planning to attack Americans. Each State now has Neo-Nazis Organizations. This is unacceptable. Write President Biden. Tell him, all hands on deck.
The Southern Poverty Law Center http://www.splcenter.org
We have a fighting chance especially if Warnock wins Tuesday 12/6. It will be easier to get bills passed and shift the trajectory with a 51-49 count.
I just forwarded a copy of today's letter to my postcard group, which meets every Tuesday morning. We will be sending postcards to all our Republican elected officials here in the gerrymandered state of Wisconsin.
This is a really good idea. Making sure elected officials know how many people feel strongly about this is an important way for them to hear our voices.
However, as I now live in Arizona, I find I’ve been fed a lie by our representative who said she was a democrat and seemed to be fighting for us (cards and all). We supported her speeches and voted for her. Then, as soon as she was elected she announced that she was not a democrat anymore and she announced she would vote for whatever she believed in. How do we fight this? How?
I highly encourage sending this to your state newspapers.
One of my "jobs" for our postcard group is writing letters to the editor, and I was actually thinking about this. Just sent one on our 163 year old abortion law, and finished another one on threats to Social Security by Republicans.
Thank you for your work, from another Wisconsinite. (Sconnie?) How can I participate in the post card group, or start my own?
Go to “postcardstovoters” on the web. It will tell you how it works. It is well organized. Good for you! My daughter and I wrote 85 post cards for Midterm.
I love that you meet regularly! Keep up the fight!
YES!!!! While I know that Shelby, Tuberville, Ivey and Britt will not answer me, I WILL contact them now.
Trump persists in stepping on the accelerator as the only remedy to feed his unsatiable grab for power and solve his legal problems. His current rant is a naked, full-throated bellow demanding a complete coup d'état. As long as Trump maintains the loyalty of his MAGA base, his GOP colleagues will remain weak kneed and spineless.
As Trump turns up the heat, the short game becomes more imperative. The DOJ is now more compelled than ever to press charges of insurrection as Trump lays out a menu of evidence.
How do we send Joyce's article to the DOJ? I'm not a computer person. Anyone know? Can someone do that? The DOJ needs all the help they can get. They can not keep up with all the insanity.
I have to believe DOJ is on top of this one!
Hi Joyce:
What can the DOJ do other than note what he said and be aware? It shows his state of mind now, but can it be considered as evidence of his state of mind leading up to 1/6?
Although I am not a lawyer, I wonder if the testimony by Mark Meadows, Pat Cippollone and other high ranking inner circle officials testify under oath to the 1/6 Committee that Trump acknowledged that he lost the election, his continued spreading of the lie in the context of justifying an insurrection would constitute a crime? However, that could just be wishful thinking.
If they testified that way (and did not take the 5th), this probably would be evidence of his state of mind. But it is just one fact, and not enough to show his intent to foment an insurrection. The lying alone is not enough.
My question is a simple one. In lieu of Trump’s organizing of January 6th and his recent statement about suspending our Constitution, how is he allowed to run for President according to the 14th amendment?
That has come up, in reference not only to Trump but to others (including current officeholders) who clearly aided and abetted the 1/6 insurrection. My hunch is that some sort of conviction is necessary before the 14th would apply, but IANAL and Joyce is, so I'll leave it to her and other constitutional adepts in the group.
Outstanding essay. We took the threat to democracy presented by the many unsuitable midterm candidates as a call to action, and we responded. Yesterday's demand for the end of American democracy by the increasingly deranged and desperate former guy is another call to action, perhaps an even more urgent one. If we responded to the former, we can certainly respond, perhaps with even more energy, to the latter.
I live in a very blue state (that nevertheless has a full measure of trumpistas, election deniers, Proud Boys wanna-bes, and other assorted crazies). I'd suggest that in addition to what JV suggests, we also contact our D congresscritters and demand not only their forceful, unequivocal repudiation of the former guy's fascist rant but also their ongoing repetition of the message: that the rant is a direct threat to democracy, and politicians who will not strongly oppose that threat are themselves threats to our democracy. Don't just put out a single press release or do a single interview. Make it a road show, an ongoing outgoing message, that the public hears over and over again. Even the most compelling point or repudiation is quickly lost in the noise and BS that constantly floods the zone, as one notorious anti-democratic convicted felon put it. The repetition is key to getting the broader audience to take in the message.
I know, the White House has already put out a surprisingly strong and blunt repudiation. That's good. It's no reason every single other representative of the people, all of whom have sworn to defend the Constitution, cannot and should not speak up loudly, now, forcefully, and continually, until the fascist threat has been eliminated.
Another blue-stater here -- good idea. (I'm in MA, and you wouldn't believe the amazing women we just elected to statewide office.)
Great idea! I will contact my congressional representatives, all of whom are Democrats, to ask them to condemn TFG’s tweet.
I was just thinking of emailing the White House, glad to know they are on top of this traitor's actions.
I don't think it's "open to a benign interpretation," but I've already had a couple of online discussions with well-meaning people who believe that this wasn't a direct threat and/or excuse Trump because there's no logic in what he says. I respond (1) that I see no "if" in his words, so he's effectively saying that these things *should* happen, and (2) what he says may not be logical, but there's a coherence to it, and it's consistent with previous (what's the best word here?) utterings. Read or listen to the speeches of history's most dangerous demagogues. They aren't big on logic as we understand it, but they sure were effective.
Many of us are struggling to understand just how much trouble we're in, and even resisting that understanding. What I understand better and better is why so often, in so many situations, people wait till it's too late to act and only later do the survivors look back and say "We should have known."
After Jan 6, I will never understand anyone thinking anything he says is benign.
This is such an important column that I upgraded to "paid" just to be able to comment--and of course because of all the amazing work you do here.
One downside to having recently self-sorted, trading representation by Vicky Hartzler, Josh Hawley and Roy Blunt for Ilhan Omar, Amy Klobuchar and Tina Smith, is that I no longer have Republicans to call on these issues.
I tried, though--I went to Vicky Hartzler's website this morning to send an email asking that question, and discovered that she is no longer accepting constituent emails. Instead, she refers consitituents to Josh Hawley! Now, she is leaving office in a month, and I'm sure there has to be a transition period, but she is still voting, potentially on things like the Electoral Count Act, and as far as I know, taxpayers are still paying her staff. Is this kind of thing typical for a retiring Congressperson? Is it unreasonable to anticipate that someone would still be looking at her emails? Over a year ago, she changed her phone message to say, "if you wish to express an opinion on legislation or an issue, please visit our website at...."
Thank you! I'm honored by your support.
The question you raise is an interesting one - how do people in blue states support the red state folks. We obviously have the flip side of that here in Alabama—one of the things we did was to write voter postcards and help with election oversight in Georgia, since things here were decided in the primaries. I'd like to explore your question more, interested in seeing what ideas other people have.
Also, delighted to learn I will receive extra chicken pictures...
Madison Cawthorn's constituents have been without representation since last spring when he lost the primary. It was reported that he closed up his office and fired his staff. The boy was always in it for himself. Nowadays he's telling men to stop being "pussies." Ironic.
Madison Cawthorn has bought a house in Florida! Moved to The Freedom State? Oh, sure.
Madison Cawthorn is a pervert. He'll fit right into the right wing crowd there, although I think he really wishes he was Kyle Rittenhouse.
Yes! I posted on Twitter to Sen Cruz and Sen Cornyn. They have never responded to my hundreds of calls, emails, and tweets from 2015 on -- betting I won’t get a response today, but I’ll keep pushing. I also tweeted this column!
I plan to call/ask my elected reps for a response every day. They do, after all work for me (and for each of us)
I highly encourage sending this to your state newspapers.
Hum...local news?
If you think it would help spread the idea of making the GOP answer for this.
Good luck on that.
Joyce is totally correct here. A full court press of the GOP is called for. Even the persons who answer the phones for their undemocratic GOP office holders will take note— believe it or not— though they probably will remain silent publicly…
Thank you, Joyce, for keeping us informed and giving us ideas on how to respond so we can keep our sanity.
I imagine most Republicans will try like hell not to go on the record, not because they agree with the former president, but because when your opponent is shooting himself in the foot, don’t get in his way - or thereabouts. They know he’s going down, but if they try and give him a shove, they’ll lose his voters.
Maybe I’m giving the disgraced ex-president too much credit, knowing full well his lack of subtlety of thought and precise language. But I noticed he wasn’t calling for the suspension, ignoring , or altering of our Constitution. He called for its TERMINATION. That’s a horse of a different color. I’m sure Trump will ride it into the ground.
45’s emboldened rhetoric is to create confusion and fear among non-believers into giving up and not voting.
Joyce what you have written are the modern day version of the lanterns and the ringing bells of the Old North Church. It’s up to all of us to take action and I for one will. Where I live my Governor and Senators and Congress man are all Democrats but the have a voice that everyone can hear. No matter who it is they must be petitioned to speak. Thanks for this!
I love the idea many folks here have of asking Democratic officials to loudly condemn what Trump is doing. I think that's powerful too.
But will those who need to hear the message hear it if they only go to their own sources to get their news.
We live in the growing fascist state of Florida. I have contacted my two Senators Rubio and Scott and our frightening governor de Santis and received rote responses that are completely unresponsive to my questions. I support our local and state Democratic party but writing to Republicans is less than effective. Thank you Joyce Vance for all you do.
Great idea Joyce! I'm spreading the word!